Ed Choice hands Richmond Heights D4 basketball title

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D4fan

Well-known member
I've thought about this a few days, the accusations of recruiting, the transfer of students, the narrow miss of qualifying as a D3 school.

Who is really at fault for taking a community with a size comparable to Wapakoneta and making them a D4 public school?

I think the voucher program of Ed Choice has likely played a huge role in placing them at D4 rather than D2 or D3. Before the voucher program was instituted Richmond Heights which is comprised of 40% whites and 60% other colors had a high school comprised of 26% white and 74 % colors. Following the introduction of Ed Choice, Richmond Heights today has 3% white students K-12 and 97% other colors. But even just the percentage change does not tell the whole story.

With the vouchers in place, most white students opted to attend other schools in the area, either private or public. So did many people of color. The result is a very decimated student population relative to the size of the community. This is the primary factor in making Richmond Heights a smallest division qualifier.

So you want to see them jump up a division or two? Fix the academic side and make the school a place where more whites feel comfortable in attending. This would solve the divisional placement issue we are currently seeing.
 
 
As a white male who attended a diverse school system where a majority of students were Black or of Asian Decent I can tell you I never once felt “uncomfortable.” The truth is that white flight continues to plague the east side of Cleveland. Many people (not all) don’t want their kids to grow up in a community where they are surrounded by diversity and blame poor test scores. The truth is those schools are many times underfunded. On top of that I believe anyone can truly get a good education if they put in work no matter where they go. My four years at Brush were amazing and I wouldn’t trade that for the world. I got an amazing education and there are plenty of people I know doing great things in the world. The same applies to Richmond Heights.
 
Arcy26 said:
Good lord does this sound racist
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I simply copied much of the facts and points made by people in an article that appeared in a Cleveland publication where the state was being sued by 100 schools over the Ed Choice program. Not my original points, and the white flight comments were made by people of color, so I guess you would be saying they sound racist?
 
Wapak and Richmond Heights are not very comparable outside of the raw number of bodies present in town. Wapak's population skews significantly younger in comparison.

Vouchers probably don't have much overall impact on Richmond Heights being D4 as opposed to D3. Their community has a very old age demographic as compared to a place like Wapak. I imagine there's significant outward migration that explains student body makeup. Whites moving further out into the suburbs, and minority groups moving outward from inner-city areas on the Eastside to Richmond Heights.
 
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D4fan said:
I've thought about this a few days, the accusations of recruiting, the transfer of students, the narrow miss of qualifying as a D3 school.

Who is really at fault for taking a community with a size comparable to Wapakoneta and making them a D4 public school?

I think the voucher program of Ed Choice has likely played a huge role in placing them at D4 rather than D2 or D3. Before the voucher program was instituted Richmond Heights which is comprised of 40% whites and 60% other colors had a high school comprised of 26% white and 74 % colors. Following the introduction of Ed Choice, Richmond Heights today has 3% white students K-12 and 97% other colors. But even just the percentage change does not tell the whole story.

With the vouchers in place, most white students opted to attend other schools in the area, either private or public. So did many people of color. The result is a very decimated student population relative to the size of the community. This is the primary factor in making Richmond Heights a smallest division qualifier.

So you want to see them jump up a division or two? Fix the academic side and make the school a place where more whites feel comfortable in attending. This would solve the divisional placement issue we are currently seeing.
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Assuming your facts are accurate…

As you know, Richmond Hts is a poor ($) school district that performs poorly. Ed Choice voucher is causing people to leave the school district, not enter it. Sounds like you’re saying that the school getting blacker is an unfair advantage. Is that what you’re saying?
 
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They beat Brush, Solon, St Ed’s, Lutheran East. They would have, at least, been a strong contender for the D-I title.

If you’re into investigating, maybe you should check where their players attended school in the 7th grade. It would be a very easy community to move into…several large apartment complexes.
 
D4fan said:
I simply copied much of the facts and points made by people in an article that appeared in a Cleveland publication where the state was being sued by 100 schools over the Ed Choice program. Not my original points, and the white flight comments were made by people of color, so I guess you would be saying they sound racist?
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Referring to a group of people as 74 % "colors" is not a good look in 2023.
 
WIthout vouchers, Central Catholic is probably down a few championships. At the least, down in population and division. Is someone seeing anything new here? Unless OHSAA says voucher students do not get to participate in OHSAA sponsored events if the school wants to remain eligible for post season, it is what it is. And who would want that anyways?
 
eastisbest said:
WIthout vouchers, Central Catholic is probably down a few championships. At the least, down in population and division. Is someone seeing anything new here? Unless OHSAA says voucher students do not get to participate in OHSAA sponsored events if the school wants to remain eligible for post season, it is what it is. And who would want that anyways?
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Central Catholic is one that comes to mind among private schools that would be struggling to keep the doors open without the voucher program and to some extent (maybe equal?) investing big in athletic facilities.
 
nwwarrior09 said:
Central Catholic is one that comes to mind among private schools that would be struggling to keep the doors open without the voucher program and to some extent (maybe equal?) investing big in athletic facilities.
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There are two voucher systems...Ed Choice, that affects most people...and the Cleveland voucher...they are very similar and both are state-funded.

In my world (Cleveland), the voucher's main benefit is that it's an incentive to middle class people to continue to live in the city and props up a couple of nice middle class neighborhoods (West Park, in particular...also Lake Shore Blvd), making them viable places to live and, overall, good for the city. If you took away the Cleveland voucher, the people receiving it would not enroll at John Marshall or Collinwood...they'd move to Lorain or Lake County and enroll in public schools there...OR continue to enroll their kids @ Ignatius or SJA at a steeper cost.

Ed Choice has similar impacts. I know people who live in Euclid and use Ed Choice to attend places like NDCL. If you took away Ed Choice (and there may be good philosophical arguments to do that), those people wouldn't enroll at Euclid High. They'd move to Mentor...or Kirtland....or, again, dig deeper to pay for NDCL.

Cleveland Central Catholic is almost 100% voucher. But Ignatius has a lot of voucher kids as well (around 200, I think). St. Joseph Academy is probably 33% voucher. It may be different in Toledo but, in Cleveland, I don't see a whole of shady sports recruiting behavior connected to the voucher. Not saying there's none...
 
And ohsaa took a big hit in attendance this year at the state tournament and if they don't do something,the attendance will keep going down in the dumpster,who wants to go watch a 45 point blowout in the state finials, I'm not wasting my money on that
 
buckcc said:
And ohsaa took a big hit in attendance this year at the state tournament and if they don't do something,the attendance will keep going down in the dumpster,who wants to go watch a 45 point blowout in the state finials, I'm not wasting my money on that
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I actually think the teams in the finals had nothing to do with attendance. How about having the finals in one corner of the state instead of a central location? My team made the finals and I would have gone to both games if they were in Columbus and not Dayton.
 
Arcy26 said:
As a white male who attended a diverse school system where a majority of students were Black or of Asian Decent I can tell you I never once felt “uncomfortable.” The truth is that white flight continues to plague the east side of Cleveland. Many people (not all) don’t want their kids to grow up in a community where they are surrounded by diversity and blame poor test scores. The truth is those schools are many times underfunded. On top of that I believe anyone can truly get a good education if they put in work no matter where they go. My four years at Brush were amazing and I wouldn’t trade that for the world. I got an amazing education and there are plenty of people I know doing great things in the world. The same applies to Richmond Heights.
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Your statements are not true that people don’t want kids to grow up in a community where they are surrounded by diversity.

Unfortunately, Richmond is a bad area and even University Hospitals shut down Richmond and Bedford hospitals. It’s a bad area, which involved people of all colors/races etc.

Having worked at UH Bedford and going to work meetings at UH Richmond, they were terrible areas. There was a reason why people sometimes had security walk them to cars.

There are plans of a rejuvenation of the community.
 
DB 04 said:
Your statements are not true that people don’t want kids to grow up in a community where they are surrounded by diversity.

Unfortunately, Richmond is a bad area and even University Hospitals shut down Richmond and Bedford hospitals. It’s a bad area, which involved people of all colors/races etc.

Having worked at UH Bedford and going to work meetings at UH Richmond, they were terrible areas. There was a reason why people sometimes had security walk them to cars.

There are plans of a rejuvenation of the community.
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It's all relative though. Richmond Hts is not a bad area at all compared to where some of these kids live.

For example, I looked tried to look up where one of the players on one of the Cuyahoga County state championship played AAU...what I did find is said played at a school located near Miles and E 131 area. If you are from there you probably aren't thinking Richmond Hts or Cleveland Hts. Lutheran East are in bad areas.

Also if you grew up near Miles and E 131 and have a little basketball talent the primary reason who may matriculate to RH or LE is to create a D4 or D3 basketball dynasty and to live out a dream of destroying small town Ohio teams by 40 in Dayton with some other kids who play AAU in the are.

It's deeper than that and 80+% of these comments don't emphasize that. Honestly that's what I find most annoying about all this. The primary reason these kids end up at other schools is for a better and safer environment and change at a scholarship..not to create some D4 version of 1960s UCLA.
 
I, too, think that DB 04's description of Richmond Hts. is inaccurate. My thought is...bad? Compared to what? who? where?

It's not Austin, Texas. It's a struggling inner ring suburb in eastern Cuyahoga County. I'd have no concerns riding my bike through it on Chardon Rd., walking into a store, etc. A thriving economic climate? No.
 
"Bad area" is a highly subjective term. Strongly agreed that what may be a "bad area" to one person can also be a step up in residence for another person. It's all perspective.
 
DB 04 said:
Having worked at UH Bedford and going to work meetings at UH Richmond, they were terrible areas. There was a reason why people sometimes had security walk them to cars.
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Chardon and Bishop terrible? Really? Where do you live? Waite Hill?
 
DB 04 said:
Your statements are not true that people don’t want kids to grow up in a community where they are surrounded by diversity.

Unfortunately, Richmond is a bad area and even University Hospitals shut down Richmond and Bedford hospitals. It’s a bad area, which involved people of all colors/races etc.

Having worked at UH Bedford and going to work meetings at UH Richmond, they were terrible areas. There was a reason why people sometimes had security walk them to cars.

There are plans of a rejuvenation of the community.
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I remember when East Cleveland was going to rejuvenate the area.
 
cdub4 said:
It's all relative though. Richmond Hts is not a bad area at all compared to where some of these kids live.

For example, I looked tried to look up where one of the players on one of the Cuyahoga County state championship played AAU...what I did find is said played at a school located near Miles and E 131 area. If you are from there you probably aren't thinking Richmond Hts or Cleveland Hts. Lutheran East are in bad areas.

Also if you grew up near Miles and E 131 and have a little basketball talent the primary reason who may matriculate to RH or LE is to create a D4 or D3 basketball dynasty and to live out a dream of destroying small town Ohio teams by 40 in Dayton with some other kids who play AAU in the are.

It's deeper than that and 80+% of these comments don't emphasize that. Honestly that's what I find most annoying about all this. The primary reason these kids end up at other schools is for a better and safer environment and change at a scholarship..not to create some D4 version of 1960s UCLA.
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If you're from the 131st and Miles area, you should do anything you can to get out.

My parents grew up there in the 1930's-40's, and even 50 years ago, you wouldn't want to walk down the sidewalk there at noon on a bright sunny day.
 
CatAlum said:
Assuming your facts are accurate…

As you know, Richmond Hts is a poor ($) school district that performs poorly. Ed Choice voucher is causing people to leave the school district, not enter it. Sounds like you’re saying that the school getting blacker is an unfair advantage. Is that what you’re saying?
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No, I'm not saying being blacker is an unfair advantage, I'm saying it is the kids both white and minorities who accept the Ed Choice voucher as a ticket out of Richmond Heights schools that have effectively moved them down at least one division in basketball. If there was no Ed Choice program, there would likely be the same number of kids attending as before making them a D3 or potentially even a D2 school.
 
D4fan said:
No, I'm not saying being blacker is an unfair advantage, I'm saying it is the kids both white and minorities who accept the Ed Choice voucher as a ticket out of Richmond Heights schools that have effectively moved them down at least one division in basketball. If there was no Ed Choice program, there would likely be the same number of kids attending as before making them a D3 or potentially even a D2 school.
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So, if they had more students, they’d compete in a higher division?🤔
 
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