Ask The Ref?

simkon

Well-known member
Snapping the ball and the QB kneeling takes time. The QB can hesitate. There is no rule requiring him to instantly kneel.

When the QB kneels it takes time for the officials to blow their whistle and raise their hand to signal the end of the play.

When a play ends the 40 second clock does not start for the next pay instantaneously. There is always a slight hesitation.

If that happens 3 times could it add up to 12 seconds? Sure.

I don't see any errors or rule violations by the officials or clock operator in your scenario.
Thanks for your answer, after looking at the video again there was a 1 second difference between the play clock and game clock. That is, there still was actually 1 second on the game clock when the 40 second (play clock) hit 0, and the clock/scoreboard operator let it run down to 0 as well and no one ever said anything or asked any questions. But if someone had noticed it should have been a delay of game on the offense and a 5 yard penalty with one last play on 4th down? It wasn't like the game was out of hand, they were only up by 2 points.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Thanks for your answer, after looking at the video again there was a 1 second difference between the play clock and game clock. That is, there still was actually 1 second on the game clock when the 40 second (play clock) hit 0, and the clock operator let it run down to 0 as well and no one ever said anything or asked any questions. But if someone had noticed it should have been a delay of game on the offense and a 5 yard penalty with one last play on 4th down? It wasn't like the game was out of hand, they were only up by 2 points.
Again.....

We aren't going to discuss specific plays.......

The matter is closed.
 

Thavoice

Well-known member
Mr. Allsports,

This is an NFL question, but you are very knowledgeable so Id thought I would ask.

End of the game/OT fumble advancement rule:

As we saw in the bengals/steelers game when burrow fumbled it backwards, and the RB advanced, only the ballcarrier who fumbled can recover/advance a fumble at the end of regulation and in OT.


Fast fwd a week to 18 September.
Raiders ballcarrier fumbles the ball forward around the 45 yard line and a teammate recovered in OT. I expected it to be moved back to the spot of the fumble, and an announcment made, but nothing and the ball was not moved to the spot of the fumble.


This was a couple of plays before the fumble recovery that was returned for a TD.

  • 3rd & 3 at LV 44​

    (4:45 - OT) D.Carr pass short middle to H.Renfrow to ARZ 45 for 11 yards (J.Thompson, Z.Collins). FUMBLES (Z.Collins), recovered by LV-F.Moreau at ARZ 39.

Did the officials miss that one yesterday? Didnt matter, that fumble recovery a play or two later ended the game....
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Mr. Allsports,

This is an NFL question, but you are very knowledgeable so Id thought I would ask.

End of the game/OT fumble advancement rule:

As we saw in the bengals/steelers game when burrow fumbled it backwards, and the RB advanced, only the ballcarrier who fumbled can recover/advance a fumble at the end of regulation and in OT.


Fast fwd a week to 18 September.
Raiders ballcarrier fumbles the ball forward around the 45 yard line and a teammate recovered in OT. I expected it to be moved back to the spot of the fumble, and an announcment made, but nothing and the ball was not moved to the spot of the fumble.


This was a couple of plays before the fumble recovery that was returned for a TD.

  • 3rd & 3 at LV 44​

    (4:45 - OT) D.Carr pass short middle to H.Renfrow to ARZ 45 for 11 yards (J.Thompson, Z.Collins). FUMBLES (Z.Collins), recovered by LV-F.Moreau at ARZ 39.

Did the officials miss that one yesterday? Didnt matter, that fumble recovery a play or two later ended the game....
NFL RULES

Any player of either team may recover or catch a fumble and advance, either before or after the ball strikes the ground..... except when....

- The fumble occurs on 4th down during a play from scrimmage.
- any defensive team member may recover and advance.
- only the player who fumbled the ball may recover and advance for Team A
- if a teammate of the player who fumbled either recovers or catches the fumble, the ball is dead and the spot of
the next snap is the spot of the fumble, unless the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble. (after
a change of possession, the 2nd and 3rd restrictions do not apply through the remainder of the down)

- If a fumble occurs by either team after the 2-minute warning.
- the ball may be advanced by any opponent
- the player who fumbled is the only player who may recover and advance
- if a teammate of the player who fumbled either recovers or catches the fumble, the ball is dead and the spot of
the next snap is the spot of the fumble, unless the spot of the recovery is behind the spot of the fumble. (the
2nd and 3rd restrictions are in effect during a try throughout the game)

*** In your play, because it was not 4th down and they were not inside the 2 minute warning, the spot of the ball was correct.
 

tig62

Well-known member
What's the rule for a punt returner for not giving a acceptable enough arm gesture for a fair catch even though that same punt returner never made a attempt to run with the ball after calling for a fair catch, nor did any players from the punting team make any moves to tackle the punter. A punt returner's team was flagged for a 5 yard penalty for the punt returner not giving a valid enough fair catch signal? In all my years(50?) of watching high school football, I've never seen this called.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
What's the rule for a punt returner for not giving a acceptable enough arm gesture for a fair catch even though that same punt returner never made a attempt to run with the ball after calling for a fair catch, nor did any players from the punting team make any moves to tackle the punter. A punt returner's team was flagged for a 5 yard penalty for the punt returner not giving a valid enough fair catch signal? In all my years(50?) of watching high school football, I've never seen this called.
A valid fair-catch signal is the extending and lateral waving of one arm, at full arm's length above the head, by any R player.

It would be a 5 yard penalty from where the kick ends.

Yep, don't see it very often.
 

maven

New member
In all my years(50?) of watching high school football, I've never seen this called.
A good back judge will demonstrate proper a fair catch signal for the receiver prior to the punt, which tends to prevent invalid signals.

A valid signal looks like a HS/college touchback signal.
 

BigK72

Active member
This was brought up in conversation (I don’t know how we got to that point)

A team that is some kind of Native American Mascot(Indians, Braves….). The band/crowd begins doing the tomahawk chop chant. Would it be a taunting penalty if the players on the field did it as well during stoppage of plays? For example, the kickoff team joins in, while the kicker is taking his steps OR a defense while they wait for the offense to break the huddle? The things you talk about over a few cold ones…
 

maven

New member
This was brought up in conversation (I don’t know how we got to that point)

A team that is some kind of Native American Mascot(Indians, Braves….). The band/crowd begins doing the tomahawk chop chant. Would it be a taunting penalty if the players on the field did it as well during stoppage of plays? For example, the kickoff team joins in, while the kicker is taking his steps OR a defense while they wait for the offense to break the huddle? The things you talk about over a few cold ones…
I'm wondering first off whether we'd even have this conversation if it weren't a Native American mascot. Politically charged matters tend to spread into all sorts of things.

Whether it's taunting of any kind will depend on the situation: is the opponent winning at that point? It's hard to sell taunting if they join in on the first kickoff of the game.

As to whether it's a foul, I'd recommend game management strategies first. If it becomes a problem (situation, heat of the game, etc.), tell them to KTSO. If they don't, we can flag their failure to follow officials' directives.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
This was brought up in conversation (I don’t know how we got to that point)

A team that is some kind of Native American Mascot(Indians, Braves….). The band/crowd begins doing the tomahawk chop chant. Would it be a taunting penalty if the players on the field did it as well during stoppage of plays? For example, the kickoff team joins in, while the kicker is taking his steps OR a defense while they wait for the offense to break the huddle? The things you talk about over a few cold ones…
As to whether it's a foul, I'd recommend game management strategies first. If it becomes a problem (situation, heat of the game, etc.), tell them to KTSO. If they don't, we can flag their failure to follow officials' directives.
It's not a foul and never has been.

We have never been authorized to penalize a team for something happening in the stands. (see OHSAA FB regulations for bands playing or amplified noise during a live ball or when the quarterback is calling signals & whistle in the stands)

This is 100% on game management.

If this is brought up by one team during a game and they insist that it's causing a problem, stop the game and get game management involved. It's on them to act. It may be a valid issue or it may be much ado about nothing. In any event, the fact that a team brought up this potentially sensitive/explosive matter to the officials needs to be addressed with a game report following the contest. (know that the team bringing the matter up will undoubtedly being doing the same)

In extreme situations, the Referee may choose to suspend the game until the matter is resolved on field or call it an evening with the powers that be deciding what happens regarding the completion of the contest at a later date.
 

Zunardo

Well-known member
Probably been asked before, but what restrictions on jersey numbers by position are there, if any? Do O-lineman # 50-99 have to report to officials if they're eligible? Or vice-versa? TIA.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Probably been asked before - what restrictions on jersey numbers by position are there, if any? Do lineman 50-99 have to report to officials if they're eligible? Or vice-versa? TIA.
There is no reporting mechanism/requirement under NFHS Rules. 50-79 are not eligible receivers. (restrictions end when B touches a legal forward pass, as everyone becomes eligible when that occurs)

In lower levels, there are times when there simply aren't enough kids to meet the numbering requirements, 50-79 can be eligible. This is something discussed in the pre-game conferences with the coaches.
 
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maven

New member
We have never been authorized to penalize a team for something happening in the stands. (see OHSAA FB regulations for bands playing or amplified noise during a live ball or when the quarterback is calling signals & whistle in the stands)
The OP asked: "Would it be a taunting penalty if the players on the field did it as well during stoppage of plays?"
 

maven

New member
Probably been asked before, but what restrictions on jersey numbers by position are there, if any?
Allsports12 answered the eligibility part of your question.

For this part: HS football does not restrict positions. Any player in any position may wear any legal number.

There are eligibility restrictions, and the offense must have 5 ineligible numbers (50–79) on the line of scrimmage at the snap. But that's the only restriction: the ineligibles may be anywhere on the line of scrimmage, and the offense may have additional ineligibles on the field (who will be ineligible at the snap even if they're backs).
 

AllSports12

Moderator
The OP asked: "Would it be a taunting penalty if the players on the field did it as well during stoppage of plays?"
Sorry, I missed that part about the players........ I'm only getting involved in this if it's done in a taunting manner. Treat it like any other taunt.

The mere act of the chop..... I'm not going there..... (game report may be appropriate if an opposing coach has an issue)
 

BigK72

Active member
Sorry, I missed that part about the players........ I'm only getting involved in this if it's done in a taunting manner. Treat it like any other taunt.

The mere act of the chop..... I'm not going there..... (game report may be appropriate if an opposing coach has an issue)
I’m merely asking about players on the field joining in on a cheer from the stands.

I just used the tomahawk chop as an example.
 

ICBM

Well-known member
Q. On a kick off. Two receiving players a few yards apart. One signals fair catch. The other catches it and runs. Apparently that’s a no call??
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Q. On a kick off. Two receiving players a few yards apart. One signals fair catch. The other catches it and runs. Apparently that’s a no call??
Ball should have been blown dead as soon as the receiver caught the ball. Once the teammate caught the ball and started running, he has now committed a delay-of-game foul.
 

Gnep27

Member
Question about down and distance mechanics. Do the referee’s note where down and distance begins each series? This is what happened and I couldn’t believe not one referee on the field noticed the mistake:

Team A had first and 10 on team B’s 20. They run to the 9 yard line and pick up a first down making it first and goal. First play is a loss of 6 brining ball back to the 14. They gain a few yards one next 2 plays and it ends up 4th and goal from the 11. Now, chain gang has never moved from when the ball was at the 20 after team A got the first down. Team B runs a play on 4th and goal from the 11 and picks up 4 yards. Defensive thinks they forced turnover on downs, refs signals first down because he looked at the chain gang who had never moved and thought it was 4th and 1 apparently but it was clearly fourth and goal.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Findlay-Fremont. Fremont scores, goes ahead and kicks with 6 seconds left in the game. Then something unreal happened and Findlay wins.

I do not know the clock rules well enoung to give a definitive answer as to whether or not Fremont has an alternative that would keep Findlay from getting their hands on the ball either on the kick-off or one follow-on offensive play. (too vauge?)

So the question is, was there anything Fremont could have done to exhaust that 6 seconds that would have prevented Findlay getting hands on the ball on the kick or at least one offensive play?
 

maven

New member
Findlay-Fremont. Fremont scores, goes ahead and kicks with 6 seconds left in the game. Then something unreal happened and Findlay wins.

I do not know the clock rules well enoung to give a definitive answer as to whether or not Fremont has an alternative that would keep Findlay from getting their hands on the ball either on the kick-off or one follow-on offensive play. (too vauge?)

So the question is, was there anything Fremont could have done to exhaust that 6 seconds that would have prevented Findlay getting hands on the ball on the kick or at least one offensive play?
Not much. The clock won't start until the ball is touched by the receiving team inbounds. But if they call a fair catch, or immediately down the ball, then they will certainly get at least one play on offense.

Best bet is for the defense not to foul during that one play, which would in most cases afford them another, untimed, play.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Findlay-Fremont. Fremont scores, goes ahead and kicks with 6 seconds left in the game. Then something unreal happened and Findlay wins.

I do not know the clock rules well enoung to give a definitive answer as to whether or not Fremont has an alternative that would keep Findlay from getting their hands on the ball either on the kick-off or one follow-on offensive play. (too vauge?)

So the question is, was there anything Fremont could have done to exhaust that 6 seconds that would have prevented Findlay getting hands on the ball on the kick or at least one offensive play?
Ross could have recovered their own onside kick, or a deeper version of an onside kick.
 

AllSports12

Moderator
Question about down and distance mechanics. Do the referee’s note where down and distance begins each series? This is what happened and I couldn’t believe not one referee on the field noticed the mistake:

Team A had first and 10 on team B’s 20. They run to the 9 yard line and pick up a first down making it first and goal. First play is a loss of 6 brining ball back to the 14. They gain a few yards one next 2 plays and it ends up 4th and goal from the 11. Now, chain gang has never moved from when the ball was at the 20 after team A got the first down. Team B runs a play on 4th and goal from the 11 and picks up 4 yards. Defensive thinks they forced turnover on downs, refs signals first down because he looked at the chain gang who had never moved and thought it was 4th and 1 apparently but it was clearly fourth and goal.
If that's how it happened, you have 5 officials who failed noticing the chains were not laying on the ground. (I would also submit to you that you have a coaching staff that failed as well)
 

Gnep27

Member
If that's how it happened, you have 5 officials who failed noticing the chains were not laying on the ground. (I would also submit to you that you have a coaching staff that failed as well)
Yep, that’s what happened. And the coaching staff was aware and argued to no avail.

Despite all of that, I was just curious if there was a process to help keep track of situations like this if somehow this happens. If one member of the crew was responsible for charting each new set of downs etc. Mistakes happen, especially if we are relying on amateur chain gangs.
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Yep, that’s what happened. And the coaching staff was aware and argued to no avail.

Despite all of that, I was just curious if there was a process to help keep track of situations like this if somehow this happens. If one member of the crew was responsible for charting each new set of downs etc. Mistakes happen, especially if we are relying on amateur chain gangs.
Was this in a varsity game?
 

chs1971

Well-known member
Nobody charts the line to gain, down & distance, whatever.

Five officials should have known and communicated that 1st and goal had become 4th and goal.

By rule, the chains should have been moved far enough off the sideline, or placed on the ground, to prevent confusion by anyone in attendance.

The chain crew is supposed to act in a nonpartisan manner and can be replaced if they fail to do so.

Where the breakdown was I have no idea.
 
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