Another Rough Day for Officials

[MitSulHer]

Some of the best officials I've worked with just have a knack for being able to diffuse a situation. Depending on the situation it's amazing how introducing a little humor/levity can diffuse a situation.

Well said. I made it a point to tell a couple officials at Upper Arlington sectionals that they did a great job handling upset coaches (or coaches that were trending in that direction). They used communication, knowledge and even humor to help defuse situations. Sometimes a work of art.

Thankfully we will see these officials at Darby this weekend.

 

[UsedToBe103]

It definitely pays better than Coaching

Absolutely

 

[wjjsj]

Pretty annoying thread to read. Haven't been on Yappi for awhile and I see why.

All of you need to chill. Most of you don't know what you are talking about.

As someone said earlier no career has everyone perfect. You have to ref a ton to make $8K. Meaning you aren't making that doing high school wrestling alone unless you are reffing everyday of the week and over charging.
I might have made that amount once between high school football, Wrestling, basketball, small college football and wrestling, and Arena Football in one season.

Varsity duals pay $80 in Southwest Ohio. As far as I know the highest is $90 unless a ref is overcharging. Tourneys do not average $300. We did not even make $300 for officiating Sectionals. Youth typically only pays $150-$200 with very limited breaks.

Unless we are getting full time pay I can tell you it pretty much is not worth it. Fans/Coaches are bias and their passion meter is amplified for their athlete. I can live with that because I was probably worse than all of them when I coached. I ask that they just remain respectful.

It shows a lot of you don't know what you're talking about when you try to justify that the compensation is fine. It is a big deal for an official to give up their Friday night and Saturday from their family. Officials are the last ones thought of typically and usually by accident are taken advantage of. There were multiple events this year where schools told me since I'm the assigner that there would be 2 extra matches added on to a dual or a Tri. Multiple times they had actually added on 30 matches. Another canceled their Saturday event WITHOUT notifying me and the officials assigned. They show up before 8am to find out it was canceled
Inconvenienced and now they don't have the option to get another event to officiate.

I could go on and on. A lot of the times too when people are criticizing officials on calls they made, they are clearly wrong and bias on how they see it. We all miss calls unfortunately. We are not as bad as you all think and we are not as great as we personally think we are. Officials that officiate purely for money are typically not that good in my opinion. There are very few guys like this though. I will say that since covid officials are fed up with the lower pay and getting taken advantage of. There had not been a bump in pay my first 20 years in officiating. So it finally bumped 2 years ago and will again next season.

Just my three cents...

Oh... And if you see me blow a call this weekend at the Fairmont district you are more than welcome to ask me about it or ping me like an adult instead being a keyboard Warrior and trying to humiliate me and my peers on an internet forum... Just make sure you ask when I'm not focused on officiating...

 

[TCSoup]

Was privileged to sit in on a 2 Hour Wrestling Officials seminar a few weeks ago ran by Refman and several very experienced Wrestling Officials. I believe it will soon be made available for Public viewing on the OHSAA website. If it is i would recommend all Fans, Parents, Officials and Coaches watch it. What you think you know you don't. Thats all i'll say.

Its not a easy job and thankless at best. Every one of these Officials were at the top of the profession and everyone were humble enough to admit " Yep I make mistakes and heres some examples of how or why and no one feels worse than i do." Was great instructing on how to keep position or get into position to minimize mistakes . Along with great information on rules interpretation , Controlling the table, the coaches corners and tuning out those pesky parents.LOL

 

[WrestlingFalcon]

Rules 6-6-6 and 7-5-3 cover this quite clearly. It is up to the officials to enforce the rules especially in a situation like you describe.

Rules 6-6-6 and 7-5-3 cover this quite clearly. It is up to the officials to enforce the rules especially in a situation like you describe.

Sure that’s the rule, but a Head Official getting clarification from the SRI on a team claiming to NOT HAVE TRANSPORTATION because the bus driver didn’t read the information seems in order. The officials (all quality officials) want to do the right thing, Don’t throw officials under the bus or the kids because someone (COACH) is irresponsible. I always called the assigned driver to be sure they were coming to get my kids. Poor communication is to blame, not the kids on the bus.

 

[Jim Behrens]

Sure that’s the rule, but a Head Official getting clarification from the SRI on a team claiming to NOT HAVE TRANSPORTATION because the bus driver didn’t read the information seems in order. The officials (all quality officials) want to do the right thing, Don’t throw officials under the bus or the kids because someone (COACH) is irresponsible. I always called the assigned driver to be sure they were coming to get my kids. Poor communication is to blame, not the kids on the bus.

What does this post have to do with my original post?? I posted nothing relative to a a transportation issue.
Why are you posting this relative to anything I wrote?

 

[Jim Behrens]

I was at the Kettering-Fairmont District, and I will assert that what happened in the 150 pound conso-semi match confirms what I said when I started this thread. You may dm me if you want to chat about it.

So, let me understand this. You started this thread to condemn officials because you are upset or didn't like something that happened, or didn't happen, to your liking in a consolation match in one sectional?
Got it!
BTW, as was suggested early in the thread by Coach Hoon, I hope you have signed up to become an official. It is easy to take the class and pass the test. Now, let's see if it is all talk or if you can walk the walk. I would guess the former.

 

[eyes r burning]

Seriously Jim? So I can't criticize an NFL ref if I'm not signing-up to be an NFL ref? I can't criticize politicians unless I run for office? That's your comeback? That's the best you've got Jim? Seriously and in all honesty, I'd expected much more from a learned man such as yourself, especially an Ohio wrestling guy in your position. As for Coach Hoon, never heard of him, so his opinion on this matter in this forum is as valuable to me as the rest (and my own). It's an opinion forum, good grief Jim!

I called out some bad officiating last weekend, and I saw just a tiny handful of missed/bad calls over this weekend. The guys were really on their game at Kettering this time. I even commented to several of them Saturday morning and all day today (at the Girl's tourny in Harrison) at how I was impressed with the teamwork of the referee pairs all weekend. I have a very strong and positive relationship with the SW refereeing community, and I commend them on a good job when deserved, and we discuss the 'other' calls in a very positive, learning way when they happen. And yes, they teach me way more than I teach them.

Anyway, I'll be in Columbus this weekend, and I'd love to meet you and show you some video and let you make a decision on your own with respect to this one match. Who knows, you may point something out that all the State level and our District Rep overlooked, and if that is the case, I will gladly shake your hand and thank you for the education. Let's go ahead and set the time and place now so neither of us gets distracted throughout the week. I will meet you at the entry door to the auxiliary gym (on the gym side) at the very beginning of the boys 106 weigh-in. Thank you Jim for providing me with this opportunity to learn. I'm real big into lifelong learning.

You're THAT GUY, aren't you?

 

[eyes r burning]

It would appear so. Thanks for recognizing me

Hopefully I never do.

 

[CoachHoversten]

Criticizing scholastic officials is like criticizing the McDonald’s worker for not preparing a steak worthy of being on a cooking show.

They’re “professionals” in that they are paid for their work but that’s it. Did you know, at least in years past, that a few class 2 officials had to be used in sectionals bc there weren’t enough class 1 officials to cover all the events?

There aren’t enough officials that they have to use guys not certified for post season in the post season (sectionals only, hence why it was better in districts)

And you expect perfection or near it…

The issue is there aren’t enough officials to only use the “deserving” ones.

Threads like this don’t help.

So Jim’s response wasn’t about you not being allowed to criticize, it’s about being part of the solution. More officials would mean more talent to draw from, so the new inexperienced guys wouldn’t be working sectionals until they are ready.

 

[wjjsj]

I was at the Kettering-Fairmont District, and I will assert that what happened in the 150 pound conso-semi match confirms what I said when I started this thread. You may dm me if you want to chat about it.

I heard about the match right after it happened and heard that in the end it was the right call. So I'm not sure what you are trying to tell me. Just gets old seeing people bash refs online.

How crazy would it be if we bash coaches when they cost kids matches and games. I heard a coach say the craziest thing/strategy during a Varsity football game one time that would have made them lose.

I had a coach this weekend that was adamant that I was wrong on a call. It was something so elementary that I was in shock that he was actually trying to educate me that I was wrong. To his credit he did come to me shortly after and admit he was wrong and had a brainfart. I would never just put him on front street and blast him online like people do us. I didn't tell the other refs either.

 

[eyes r burning]

Quite honestly, that would be far more enjoyable because we can always count on lots of coaches making fools of themselves. At least if a ref does miss a call, they almost never make fools of themselves. Because this is just a forum where lots of people come to blow-off steam and be amused by the musings of others, I think we should all just take a deep breath and keep it real. I've never called out any kids, well, because they are kids. But I have called out coaches and referees alike when I think it's something worth chatting about, serious or funny. I am way on the other side of youth, and as I admitted many times before, I would truly stink at officiating.

Guys, I am just a frustrated coach blowing-off a little steam from what I witnessed the past few weeks. And, rest assured I spoke to several of these officials after the matches. And you know what, I learned things, and they were made aware of a few things. Everyone was just fine. Like someone on ths thread said earlier, if you don't like what's on Yappi, do go on Yappi. I concur. Good evening gents!

Go on the internet to whine and bash officials as a coach.

It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for'em.

 

[Mutant]

Let me say I’m not a wrestling official but I love the sport. I am a baseball umpire. Years ago I was that dad or coach who lay into an umpire for a blown or missed call. One game we only had one umpire for a game and I let him know it a couple of times that he missed something. After the game as we are walking to our cars, he is parked next to me. He politely tells me that was his 4th game that day by himself and yes he may have missed something. Tells me there is a shortage of umpires but what made it worse that his wife and newborn were about 10 feet from me and could hear everything I said about their spouse/dad. Felt like a real .

Next year I became an umpire and really learned the rules of the game. I enjoy it immensely. For 2 hours, just being outside and enjoying the game. Sure I’ve worked solo, 2 and 3 man also. I don’t do it for the money. I do it because I enjoy it. I do my best, look sharp and hustle at all times. It’s a job and I expect the same at my real job.

Someone mentioned the do you need a hug comment. I’ve used that in the past and I do incorporate humor when appropriate.

Have I blown or missed calls. I sure have, I’m human. I’ve also had coaches say what a great game I’ve called or we liked how you and your partner communicated etc. I don’t really worry about what fans think.

When it comes to officiating, my fellow brothers, carry on, regardless of your sport. To me, if you’ve never called a game or match, no you shouldn’t complain.

Six years after I got my umpiring license I got to work with the man I yelled at in front of his family. Hadn’t seen him since but he remembered me and our conversation. Shared with him he was the reason I became an umpire.

I could go on and on but I won’t. I’m just damn proud to put my uniform on!!

 

[StillNeutral]

Interesting thread that has spiraled somewhat since I've been reading, here is my 28cents.
1.) In the regular season if there is a issue with a team arriving late its handled by the host/tourn director, tournament in Jan we had a team call to say they were just leaving , were well over an hour away and weigh ins ended in 45 min, after a phone call, and tourn admin they decided not to come, because we were not waiting.
2.) As far as post season, that decision would ultimately be in the hands of Ohssa, if cannot be reached then a decision will be made at the site.
3.) As far as sectional weekend, it starting snowing heavily in the morning on the way to my sectional and when I went out after weigh ins, at least a inch more had fallen. As far as this team being late I cannot comment on it as I was not there, to know the situation or what was decided at the host school, or by Ohssa
4.) Someone mentioned looking at video, nothing personal but I would never look at a video that someone from the public wanted me to see about an another official. I will never scrutinize another official to the public, that is something we handle in the locker room and local meetings.
5.) Most I ever made in a season was a smidge over 4k but I was hustling that season 2-3 during the week, weekend tourn and sometimes youth on Sunday, I usually average 3200-3500, on good years
6.) As officials go, sure there are some bad apples, For the remainder, they really care about the sport and their craft, and making the right calls. The general public never hears or see or hear the conversations that go on in our board meetings and in the locker rooms. I can assure you the situations that are brought up can stir a lot of debate. And if we cant get q good answer on our questions we contact a State rules interpreter, for clarifications. Myself and my mentor call each other almost everyday during the season and we are always discussing calls, situations and rules.
7.) Holding any post season tournament because of a situation at another completely doesn't make sense.
8.) As far as coaches knowing the rules, some are really good as far as knowing rules and do ask questions about scenarios that has happened to their kids. On the flip side at least once a year I have to explain why a standing reversal was 2 points. Many coaches complain, and i get it, Its emotional when u spend all this time with these kids. Many would do better to coach their kids instead of me, particularly on stalling calls.
9.) I wish we could get more youthful or any age for that matter out to try officiating, its def some of the most fun ive ever had and the comradery between us is great, and at the end of the day Ive got the best seat in the house to see some excellent wrestling

 

[CoachHoversten]

Let me say I’m not a wrestling official but I love the sport. I am a baseball umpire. Years ago I was that dad or coach who lay into an umpire for a blown or missed call. One game we only had one umpire for a game and I let him know it a couple of times that he missed something. After the game as we are walking to our cars, he is parked next to me. He politely tells me that was his 4th game that day by himself and yes he may have missed something. Tells me there is a shortage of umpires but what made it worse that his wife and newborn were about 10 feet from me and could hear everything I said about their spouse/dad. Felt like a real .

Next year I became an umpire and really learned the rules of the game. I enjoy it immensely. For 2 hours, just being outside and enjoying the game. Sure I’ve worked solo, 2 and 3 man also. I don’t do it for the money. I do it because I enjoy it. I do my best, look sharp and hustle at all times. It’s a job and I expect the same at my real job.

Someone mentioned the do you need a hug comment. I’ve used that in the past and I do incorporate humor when appropriate.

Have I blown or missed calls. I sure have, I’m human. I’ve also had coaches say what a great game I’ve called or we liked how you and your partner communicated etc. I don’t really worry about what fans think.

When it comes to officiating, my fellow brothers, carry on, regardless of your sport. To me, if you’ve never called a game or match, no you shouldn’t complain.

Six years after I got my umpiring license I got to work with the man I yelled at in front of his family. Hadn’t seen him since but he remembered me and our conversation. Shared with him he was the reason I became an umpire.

I could go on and on but I won’t. I’m just damn proud to put my uniform on!!

Your post reiterates what I’ve said numerous times on this topic. Officials can and should control their effort, and criticism is fair if they’re being lazy, not trying, show up with dirty/wrinkled uniforms, etc. but not for just
Missing a call.

When I took Feeneys wrestling class, I had wrestled for many years, and coached for about ten. I thought I knew my stuff. My first match during the class (at autism tourney) he said he’d give me $1,000 if I didn’t make a mistake. I didn’t last one minute before I held up green instead of red . I also umpire baseball, and people think it’s easy, and they have no idea how hard it is to tell the difference between two pitches an inch apart when they’re coming in at 90mph with movement. One hit corner, one is outside, they look identical Unless you’re trained and locked in.

Thanks for joining the ranks

 

[lcwrestling]

Reffing is a tough job, but that can not be used as an excuse. To many refs not getting in position, being lazy, not giving an effort and just wanting to be confrontational. Just because the coach takes you to the table doesn't mean he didn't see something differently or that u totally blew the call, the coach may just need more clarification on what you saw.

With that being said the refs at Middletown, wow not a great showing, collectively it was very bad. Refs blatantly just not knowing the rules or the application of the rules. One ref it never failed within 10 sec of the start of the period hes yelling contact, action. Well sir there is a little feeling out process to the match, their style might not be to just jump right on top of each other.

Its a thankless job, but it is a job, the refs get paid , the should be prepared and ready to work, not just there to collect a paycheck. I feel we are seeing more and more guys there just to get the money with no interest in being a ref. And yes before all the crying starts I was an OHSAA official for over 20 years, I'm just giving my observation. WE for sure need to find a way to get more QUALITY officials into the sport.

Refs being confrontational is a HUGE concern. I coached in the NCAA and never felt this way untill coming to HS. I felt college refs were ALWAYS professional, kept their cool (even if coaches were not) and were willing to make sure you walked away knowing why they made the call and what the rule is for the situation when you took them to the table.

I almost always walk away from the table after talking to a ref feeling like I was blown off and uncertain on why it was called the way it was. Educating a coach on a call is the best way to earn trust as well as give a coach the opportunity to teach their wrestler on what went wrong in that situation.

Otherwise coaches leave mad, pointing the finger at the official, and the wrestler and parents feeling like they got screwed.

 

[wjjsj]

Refs being confrontational is a HUGE concern. I coached in the NCAA and never felt this way untill coming to HS. I felt college refs were ALWAYS professional, kept their cool (even if coaches were not) and were willing to make sure you walked away knowing why they made the call and what the rule is for the situation when you took them to the table.

I almost always walk away from the table after talking to a ref feeling like I was blown off and uncertain on why it was called the way it was. Educating a coach on a call is the best way to earn trust as well as give a coach the opportunity to teach their wrestler on what went wrong in that situation.

Otherwise coaches leave mad, pointing the finger at the official, and the wrestler and parents feeling like they got screwed.

This is a fair post and believe officials should take it to heart.

 

[350zjk]

Refs being confrontational is a HUGE concern. I coached in the NCAA and never felt this way untill coming to HS. I felt college refs were ALWAYS professional, kept their cool (even if coaches were not) and were willing to make sure you walked away knowing why they made the call and what the rule is for the situation when you took them to the table.

I almost always walk away from the table after talking to a ref feeling like I was blown off and uncertain on why it was called the way it was. Educating a coach on a call is the best way to earn trust as well as give a coach the opportunity to teach their wrestler on what went wrong in that situation.

As a retired official I can really appreciate this post. Another thing, I was lucky enough to coach for over a dozen years before I became an official. If that doesn't make a person a better official, I believe that individual really has issues. I remember walking into my first officials meeting and a long time friend/official said to me "now you're going to learn the freakin' rules", and he was so right. I mentioned in another thread. 1) A good official knows how diffuse a situation and not escalate just with a little levity. 2) Respect, and taking time to clarify a rule/situation doesn't take that long and will go a long way to prevent further confrontations.

 

[614TRUE]

If anyone on this thread is saying the officiating is good you don’t know what you’re talking about or don’t pay attention. Ask yourself when has a ref EVER admitted they were wrong. End of conversation

 

[TWO&BBQ]

If anyone on this thread is saying the officiating is good you don’t know what you’re talking about or don’t pay attention. Ask yourself when has a ref EVER admitted they were wrong. End of conversation

 

[hammer89]

If anyone on this thread is saying the officiating is good you don’t know what you’re talking about or don’t pay attention. Ask yourself when has a ref EVER admitted they were wrong. End of conversation

Refs have admitted they’re wrong more often than new users making good posts.

 

[TWO&BBQ]

Refs have admitted they’re wrong more often than new users making good posts.

Pretty sure the other thread's comments got shut off over an official making the wrong call and admitting to it.

 

[hammer89]

Pretty sure the other thread's comments got shut off over an official making the wrong call and admitting to it.

I think they got shut off because people were saying the apology wasn’t enough. We were one post away from people calling for blood.

 

[Crossface86]

If anyone on this thread is saying the officiating is good you don’t know what you’re talking about or don’t pay attention. Pathetic is a compliment for these idiots. Ask yourself when has a ref EVER admitted they were wrong. End of conversation

Just when I thought I was done with Yappi for the season ... these men and women deserve out shared respect. I admit that I will call a referee out when I think something awful happens, but even then I do it respectfully, and I would NEVER think of calling someone a name. I get that the snipes on this site can get a bit chippy, but calling referees pathetic and idiots really crosses a line, and I hope the site Moderators remove this ASAP.

When do they admit they were wrong? Well, 3 of them did yesterday at the Harrison event. How do I know this? Because I was the guy who spoke to each of them individually, and in private, soon after their matches. I asked what they saw, I said what I saw, we conversed, and all 3 admitted fault. And you know what, we are still buddies. I also asked about at least a dozen or so other situations, and each time I was persuaded to their point of view. And you know what, we're still buddies.

You, Sir, don't even deserve any more of my time in responding further. Good day!

 

[BHiatt]

Varsity duals pay $80 in Southwest Ohio. As far as I know the highest is $90 unless a ref is overcharging. Tourneys do not average $300. We did not even make $300 for officiating Sectionals. Youth typically only pays $150-$200 with very limited breaks.

You're underpaid. I paid almost double that for the officials at the Iron Maiden tournament.

 

[innoshape]

Mr Red:
Great post! I was an official for a few seasons after coaching for 15 years and I can relate to your 5 lessons. With a pause between bashing officials & Following your lead, My 5 are as follows:

1. I really didn’t know the rules like I should have before I became an official. Always a cricket, never a master.

2. Reading and reciting the rules is much different than effectively applying the rules in any match. You have a split second to make a decision on the mat on the fly with all the chaos.

3. Don’t just watch the match, officiate it- Sounds weird, but it happens. When I first started, I lost focus a few times and had to remember I was the official, not a coach or spectator. A veteran ref came up to me after a match and laughed saying I got caught up in watching. Takes a lot more focus than I expected.

4. Learn from your mistakes, but also learn to move on. I also relived, critiqued and had doubt about some of my calls after matches. Welcome critique from others, especially other officials.

5. Have tough skin & take nothing personal- Everybody is hyped up & emotional- from the kids on the mat, Dad coaching in the corner and mom in the stands. Put your ego aside. Chances are if you are officiating wrestling, you wrestled before.
Always remember this is all about the kids.

 

[Campolongo]

Refs being confrontational is a HUGE concern. I coached in the NCAA and never felt this way untill coming to HS. I felt college refs were ALWAYS professional, kept their cool (even if coaches were not) and were willing to make sure you walked away knowing why they made the call and what the rule is for the situation when you took them to the table.

I almost always walk away from the table after talking to a ref feeling like I was blown off and uncertain on why it was called the way it was. Educating a coach on a call is the best way to earn trust as well as give a coach the opportunity to teach their wrestler on what went wrong in that situation.

Otherwise coaches leave mad, pointing the finger at the official, and the wrestler and parents feeling like they got screwed.

I'll push back just a little.... I'm assuming you refer to the conversations with NCAA referees after the matches are wrestled or during challenges since a coach isn't walking a college referee to the table like they are in HS.

Most coaches (not saying you in particular) aren't aware that the rule book clearly states that if a coach is to go to the table to have a conversation with the match official, 1 of 2 things must then occur ---- #1) A call must be changed ... or ... #2) The coach going to the table must be warned for coaches misconduct. Now if you talk to nearly all HS wrestling referees, they choose not to enforce this (for the most part) because they aren't looking warn and team point coaches every match. My point is that the referees we may see as "unprofessional" or "unapproachable" may be the ones we ultimately want in the end versus the referee that will tell you at the table the call stands and immediately administers a coaches misconduct.

If we're talking about trying to have conversations with a referee afterwards; then I give your post a little more merit.

 

[GrizzlyDad]

Sw Ohio just showing they continue to have the worst officiating in the state.

 

[GrizzlyDad]

I'll push back just a little.... I'm assuming you refer to the conversations with NCAA referees after the matches are wrestled or during challenges since a coach isn't walking a college referee to the table like they are in HS.

Most coaches (not saying you in particular) aren't aware that the rule book clearly states that if a coach is to go to the table to have a conversation with the match official, 1 of 2 things must then occur ---- #1) A call must be changed ... or ... #2) The coach going to the table must be warned for coaches misconduct. Now if you talk to nearly all HS wrestling referees, they choose not to enforce this (for the most part) because they aren't looking warn and team point coaches every match. My point is that the referees we may see as "unprofessional" or "unapproachable" may be the ones we ultimately want in the end versus the referee that will tell you at the table the call stands and immediately administers a coaches misconduct.

If we're talking about trying to have conversations with a referee afterwards; then I give your post a little more merit.

Why would a call have to be changed, I think you are off on this one. If I go to the table for a scoring error or time error and they talk through the situation and decide the that the time and score are correct that’s not a penalty, I’m allowed to take them to the table to ask question and get clarification.

 

[eyes r burning]

Why would a call have to be changed, I think you are off on this one. If I go to the table for a scoring error or time error and they talk through the situation and decide the that the time and score are correct that’s not a penalty, I’m allowed to take them to the table to ask question and get clarification.

The rule book does state if you go to the table about a rule being misapplied that the coach should be warned if no change. Your scenario is not that in the first half.

The second part is partially correct and how I've seen it handled most commonly. By rule though even asking for clarification should be a misconduct. This very thing has been discussed numerous times on here in the past.