Afghanistan FUBAR

bob99

bob99

Well-known member
Both Trump and Biden's administrations mishandled the Afghanistan situation. Do we really want either one of these F**K UPS in 2024?Afghanistan: US State Department report details damning ...CNN.comhttps://www.cnn.com › 2023/06/30 › politics › state-dep...
“The decisions of both President (Donald) Trump and President (Joe) Biden to end the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan had serious consequences for the viability of the Afghan government and its security,” the unclassified report said.

“Those decisions are beyond the scope of this review, but the AAR (After Action Review) team found that during both administrations there was insufficient senior-level consideration of worst-case scenarios and how quickly those might follow,” it said.
 
 
bob99 said:
Both Trump and Biden's administrations mishandled the Afghanistan situation. Do we really want either one of these F**K UPS in 2024?Afghanistan: US State Department report details damning ...CNN.comhttps://www.cnn.com › 2023/06/30 › politics › state-dep...
“The decisions of both President (Donald) Trump and President (Joe) Biden to end the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan had serious consequences for the viability of the Afghan government and its security,” the unclassified report said.

“Those decisions are beyond the scope of this review, but the AAR (After Action Review) team found that during both administrations there was insufficient senior-level consideration of worst-case scenarios and how quickly those might follow,” it said.
Click to expand...
not a big fan of reading CNN.... why is Trump even mentioned along side of Biden in this?
 
bigkat said:
not a big fan of reading CNN.... why is Trump even mentioned along side of Biden in this?
Click to expand...
It was a report by the US State Department. It cites the actions leading up to the failed evacuation. Actions initiated by both Trump and Biden.
No doubt the greater fault is Biden's mishandling of the events.
 
bob99 said:
Both Trump and Biden's administrations mishandled the Afghanistan situation. Do we really want either one of these F**K UPS in 2024?Afghanistan: US State Department report details damning ...CNN.comhttps://www.cnn.com › 2023/06/30 › politics › state-dep...
“The decisions of both President (Donald) Trump and President (Joe) Biden to end the U.S. military mission in Afghanistan had serious consequences for the viability of the Afghan government and its security,” the unclassified report said.

“Those decisions are beyond the scope of this review, but the AAR (After Action Review) team found that during both administrations there was insufficient senior-level consideration of worst-case scenarios and how quickly those might follow,” it said.
Click to expand...
Do we care if Afghanistan's government is viable and secure?

If they want to have anarchy in the desert then have at it.
 
Indiandad said:
Do we care if Afghanistan's government is viable and secure?

If they want to have anarchy in the desert then have at it.
Click to expand...
No. But we should care how the withdrawal was mishandled. The needless loss of lives and the absolute poor planning in not using Bagram air base to evacuate from and leaving military equipment in the hands of the Taliban.
 
bob99 said:
No. But we should care how the withdrawal was mishandled. The needless loss of lives and the absolute poor planning in not using Bagram air base to evacuate from and leaving military equipment in the hands of the Taliban.
Click to expand...
I agree with that but the State Department specifically mentions the viability of the Afghan government.

Sounds to me like a money grabbing justification attempt by a government agency.
 
bob99 said:
It was a report by the US State Department. It cites the actions leading up to the failed evacuation. Actions initiated by both Trump and Biden.
No doubt the greater fault is Biden's mishandling of the events.
Click to expand...
A US State Department report written well into Joe Biden's first term. Of course they wouldn't slant this report to take some of the heat off Biden and put it on the hated Trump. Yea that's the ticket.

BTW, actions initiated by the Trump administration that Trump was unable to complete in the manner that was intended is on Biden not Trump.

Though I applaud you for another classic magical middle move: "they both are responsible, they both suck".
 
lotr10 said:
A US State Department report written well into Joe Biden's first term. Of course they wouldn't slant this report to take some of the heat off Biden and put it on the hated Trump. Yea that's the ticket.

BTW, actions initiated by the Trump administration that Trump was unable to complete in the manner that was intended is on Biden not Trump.

Though I applaud you for another classic magical middle move: "they both are responsible, they both suck".
Click to expand...
Do we know the details of Trump’s planned extraction from Afghanistan?

Trump said his military advisors told him it made economical sense to leave the equipment behind than to remove it and store it.
 
So what I read here is Trump is getting some of the blame for what he might of done if he was still president. Not that the plan actually happened but again what he might of done and Biden is getting some of the blame on what actually happened under him. Sounds about right.
 
Caleb said:
So what I read here is Trump is getting some of the blame for what he might of done if he was still president. Not that the plan actually happened but again what he might of done and Biden is getting some of the blame on what actually happened under him. Sounds about right.
Click to expand...
Considering the plan was started by Trump he should bear some responsibility for the plan. If the plan was changed or the implementation of the plan was screwed up (most likely) then the blame should fall more on those implementing the plan. I seriously doubt the plan called for the cluster **ck of a pullout that happened. Why are commanders on the ground not held accountable for their screw ups?
 
Indiandad said:
Do we know the details of Trump’s planned extraction from Afghanistan?

Trump said his military advisors told him it made economical sense to leave the equipment behind than to remove it and store it.
Click to expand...
All we have are hypothetical scenarios based on comments from Trump, Pompeo and other people from his administration.

It is safe to say that Trump was going to employ a carrot/stick approach where he would have approved massive air & drone strikes on any advancing Taliban units if they broke their promises and moved against the Afghan government. Comments from the Trump administration indicate that they were prepared to remain in Afghanistan if the Taliban broke the peace and went after the Afghan government before we were fully out of the country.

We also know that the Trump administration viewed that big airbase as the command center of an American withdrawal. It would have been the last place we vacated. Air/Drone strikes from this base also would have slowed down or even prevented the rapid Taliban advance that we saw with Biden in office.

I suspect it would have been cheaper to leave the equipment in Afghanistan particularly if we were leaving it to a functioning Afghan government. At minimum if we had to leave the equipment on the run and it was likely to fall into Taliban hands the Trump administration would have ordered its destruction.
 
Indiandad said:
Considering the plan was started by Trump he should bear some responsibility for the plan. If the plan was changed or the implementation of the plan was screwed up (most likely) then the blame should fall more on those implementing the plan. I seriously doubt the plan called for the cluster **ck of a pullout that happened. Why are commanders on the ground not held accountable for their screw ups?
Click to expand...
I would agree only if there were clear problems with the plan. From everything I've heard it was a solid plan in support of the overall strategy of getting out of Afghanistan. Now for those that opposed leaving Afghanistan and who wanted us to stay to nation build for however long it took then yes Trump bears responsibility for creating a plan that would remove us from Afghanistan. But as I recall Trump ran on doing just that.
 
lotr10 said:
All we have are hypothetical scenarios based on comments from Trump, Pompeo and other people from his administration.

It is safe to say that Trump was going to employ a carrot/stick approach where he would have approved massive air & drone strikes on any advancing Taliban units if they broke their promises and moved against the Afghan government. Comments from the Trump administration indicate that they were prepared to remain in Afghanistan if the Taliban broke the peace and went after the Afghan government before we were fully out of the country.

We also know that the Trump administration viewed that big airbase as the command center of an American withdrawal. It would have been the last place we vacated. Air/Drone strikes from this base also would have slowed down or even prevented the rapid Taliban advance that we saw with Biden in office.

I suspect it would have been cheaper to leave the equipment in Afghanistan particularly if we were leaving it to a functioning Afghan government. At minimum if we had to leave the equipment on the run and it was likely to fall into Taliban hands the Trump administration would have ordered its destruction.
Click to expand...
This was my understanding of the situation in 2020.

Did the plan change or did those implementing it drop the ball?

That is the question we should start with.
 
lotr10 said:
A US State Department report written well into Joe Biden's first term. Of course they wouldn't slant this report to take some of the heat off Biden and put it on the hated Trump. Yea that's the ticket.

BTW, actions initiated by the Trump administration that Trump was unable to complete in the manner that was intended is on Biden not Trump.

Though I applaud you for another classic magical middle move: "they both are responsible, they both suck".
Click to expand...
Unlike you lotty I try to look at all angles of an issue. I realize that it is a foreign concept to you, but there is usually two sides to every story.
Trump's deal with the Taliban set the stage for the Afghan ...The Hillhttps://thehill.com › opinion › national-security › 568...
"History will mark Aug. 15, 2021, as the date that the Afghan government collapsed and the Taliban retook control over this troubled and war-torn country. But the real date that the Taliban’s victory was assured is Feb. 29, 2020, the day the Trump administration signed what it characterized as a “peace” deal with the Taliban. Once this agreement was signed — the tragic collapse we witnessed this weekend was inevitable.

Of course, the agreement was not, and could not possibly have been, a “peace” deal since one of the parties currently at war — the Afghan government — was not a signatory. Rather, this was a “withdrawal” agreement between the U.S. and the Taliban that set the terms for the complete departure of American troops from Afghanistan by May 2021."
 
lotr10 said:
All we have are hypothetical scenarios based on comments from Trump, Pompeo and other people from his administration.

It is safe to say that Trump was going to employ a carrot/stick approach where he would have approved massive air & drone strikes on any advancing Taliban units if they broke their promises and moved against the Afghan government. Comments from the Trump administration indicate that they were prepared to remain in Afghanistan if the Taliban broke the peace and went after the Afghan government before we were fully out of the country.

We also know that the Trump administration viewed that big airbase as the command center of an American withdrawal. It would have been the last place we vacated. Air/Drone strikes from this base also would have slowed down or even prevented the rapid Taliban advance that we saw with Biden in office.

I suspect it would have been cheaper to leave the equipment in Afghanistan particularly if we were leaving it to a functioning Afghan government. At minimum if we had to leave the equipment on the run and it was likely to fall into Taliban hands the Trump administration would have ordered its destruction.
Click to expand...
Trump never consulted with the Afghan government. He negotiated with the Taliban behind the Afghan government backs. Nothing hypothetical about that.
 
lotr10 said:
I would agree only if there were clear problems with the plan. From everything I've heard it was a solid plan in support of the overall strategy of getting out of Afghanistan. Now for those that opposed leaving Afghanistan and who wanted us to stay to nation build for however long it took then yes Trump bears responsibility for creating a plan that would remove us from Afghanistan. But as I recall Trump ran on doing just that.
Click to expand...
Trump negotiated with terrorists rather than the Afghanistan legal government. There is that.
"Does the US negotiate with terrorists? The US has perhaps the strongest commitment not to negotiate with terrorists, but this stance has been breached occasionally, during various crises played out through successive administrations and in different nations, from Colombia, Iran and Lebanon to Iraq and Syria.Jan 13, 2022"
 
Caleb said:
So what I read here is Trump is getting some of the blame for what he might of done if he was still president. Not that the plan actually happened but again what he might of done and Biden is getting some of the blame on what actually happened under him. Sounds about right.
Click to expand...
No. Trump is being held accountable for his negotiations with the Taliban while he was still President. He started the process and Biden totally screwed the pooch by his actions.
 
bob99 said:
No. Trump is being held accountable for his negotiations with the Taliban while he was still President. He started the process and Biden totally screwed the pooch by his actions.
Click to expand...

Releasing those twenty thousand Taliban fighters plus their commanders was amazingly stupid.

So was undercutting the Afghan government by making deals behind their back.
 
Cubsandtigers said:
Releasing those twenty thousand Taliban fighters plus their commanders was amazingly stupid.

So was undercutting the Afghan government by making deals behind their back.
Click to expand...
It is difficult to extract from a war unless a country has decisively won that war. Look at Vietnam or Russia in Afghan and now Russia in Ukraine. We killed a lot of bad guys in Afghan unfortunately not enough.
 
OhioBobcatFan06 said:
there is a place in cleveland selling afghan kabob it's worth a visit
Click to expand...
Babu Bhatt’s ?


iu
 
Stirred not Shaken said:
Is it more truthful coming from Fox: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/worl...n-administrations-painful-lessons/ar-AA1dgRZ4

Comes out on a Friday evening before 4th of July.
Click to expand...
s
Indiandad said:
Do we know the details of Trump’s planned extraction from Afghanistan?

Trump said his military advisors told him it made economical sense to leave the equipment behind than to remove it and store it.
Click to expand...
that was MILEY... the WHITE RAGE dude!!! that gave that advice!!! fricking CLOWN!!


MILEY should be asked that question on the LOGIC of that statement!!!
 
bigkat said:
s

that was MILEY... the WHITE RAGE dude!!! that gave that advice!!! fricking CLOWN!!


MILEY should be asked that question on the LOGIC of that statement!!!
Click to expand...
The logic is simple. Most of the equipment that was left were MRAP's. The military bought tens of thousands of them for use in Iraq and Afghanistan. We have so many in storage right now that we are "selling" them to police forces for a penny just so we don't have to maintain them in storage.

The cost to transport and store them when we already had somewhere around 13,000 in storage just didn't make sense. Remove the sensitive gear and walk away.
 
bob99 said:
Trump negotiated with terrorists rather than the Afghanistan legal government. There is that.
"Does the US negotiate with terrorists? The US has perhaps the strongest commitment not to negotiate with terrorists, but this stance has been breached occasionally, during various crises played out through successive administrations and in different nations, from Colombia, Iran and Lebanon to Iraq and Syria.Jan 13, 2022"
Click to expand...
And like everything there is THE REST OF THE STORY. Trump and a solid majority of Americans wanted out of Afghanistan and for good reason. Americans were still dying there and hundreds of billions of dollars per year was being flushed down the toilet keeping that country afloat.

But the Afghan leadership wanted us there. They were fine for America to stay another 50 years pouring in blood & money. How much of our aid was being siphoned off by corrupt government officials? All the while we provided free security for that same government. What a deal. So why would Trump, Pompeo or any senior administration official trust the Afghan government to seriously engage in any talks with the Taliban that would lead to an American departure? The answer is that Afghan officials would do everything in their power to torpedo any deal. They wanted to keep us there forever.

So yea Trump negotiated directly with the Taliban whch was a smart move on his part if the goal was to get us out of that wretched country. Bolten came to hate Trump in part because Trump was serious about keeping his campaign pledge to get us the hell out of Afghanistan.

What it came down to was the quality of our withdrawal. I'm very confident that under Trump that withdrawal would have been a lot less chaotic. For sure those Afghans who had bravely helped us would have been taken better care of and been brought to the US.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top