Best PSU team ever? Best NCAA team ever?

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bdhof

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Best PSU team ever? Best NCAA team ever?
The final determination of these questions will be answered at the NCAAs in March, but, barring an underperformance or injuries, IMO both of these questions are answered by a YES! IM has their current NCAA team pts at 138. That would assume they all place at NCAAs were they are ranked. We know that won't happen, but will they underperform or overperform? That 138 puts them 8.5 pts behind the 146.5 PSU put on the board in 2012, a team w/ our own David Taylor, Ruth and Molinaro, all champs, along w/ 3 other AAs. The thing about the 138 is that it doesn't include bonus pts! I would put the over/under wager at 30 bonus pts for this team. That would blow the 2012 team away.

OK, they're likely the best PSU team, but are they the best NCAA team ever? That distinction belongs to the 1997 IOWA team coached by none other than the NCAA Wrestling Coach GOAT (as of now, anyway). That team had 5 NCAA champs, Whitner, Ironside (what a great name for a wrestler), McIlravy, Williams and Fullhart, along w/ 3 other AAs.
 
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OK, who are these Nittany Lions challenging PSU's and IOWA's best team?

125-No. 3 Braeden Davis (Fr.)
133-No. 5 Aaron Nagao (So.)
141-No. 2 Beau Bartlett (Sr.)
149-No. 12 Tyler Kasak Fr.)
157-INo. 1 Levi Haines (So.)
165-No. 7 Mitchell Mesenbrink (R-Fr.)
174-No. 1 Carter Starocci (Sr.)
184-No. 5 Bernie Truax (Gr.)
197-No. 1 Aaron Brooks (Sr.)
285-No. 1 Greg Kerkviet (Sr.)

IMO the 4 #1s are all solid favorites, and again IMO 125, 133, and 141 are contenders for a title. That leaves 149 at #12, 165 at #7 (both AA bubbles IMO), and 184 at #5, a solid bet to AA. Time will tell if they beat that IOWA team. I'm calling it a tossup.
 
@bdhof @Yankeefan33

Copied from a friend on another bbs.

Scoring 1997 v 2024

There are differences between then and now in all three elements of team scoring.

Bonus - In 1997 they distinguished between a tech fall without back points (called a match termination) and one with back points (called a tech fall). A match termination was worth 1 team point, while a tech fall was worth 1.5 team points. Today they are all worth 1.5 team points. So, we need to adjust Iowa’s total by adding a half point to any match terminations (foreshadowing – this will get tricky).

Advancement – In 1997 the tournament was scored as a 64-man bracket whenever there was a pig tail. Not every weight had pigtails though. Today it is always scored as a 32-man bracket with a pigtail. So, what is the difference? In a 64-man bracket everyone who wins a first round match in the championship (or consolation) bracket gets an extra point (or half point). For example, in a 64-man bracket the winner gets 5 advancement points instead of the current 4 points.

Placement - Placement points for third through eighth place were also different in 1997. We will also need to adjust Iowa’s total for these differences.

1706830067384.png

Putting It All Together

The 1997 Iowa team loses the extra 4.5 advancement points available in their 64-man brackets at 142, 158, 177, 190, and 275. But they get an extra bonus point at 150 as Lincoln McIlravy’s 1-point match terminations become 1.5-point tech falls. They also pick up an extra 5 placement points for their sixth and fifth place finishes.

1706830126493.png


Adding it all up and 1997 Iowa now has 171.5 points.

That is the real point record PSU needs to shoot for.
 
MPhillips said:
@bdhof @Yankeefan33

Copied from a friend on another bbs.

Scoring 1997 v 2024

There are differences between then and now in all three elements of team scoring.

Bonus - In 1997 they distinguished between a tech fall without back points (called a match termination) and one with back points (called a tech fall). A match termination was worth 1 team point, while a tech fall was worth 1.5 team points. Today they are all worth 1.5 team points. So, we need to adjust Iowa’s total by adding a half point to any match terminations (foreshadowing – this will get tricky).

Advancement – In 1997 the tournament was scored as a 64-man bracket whenever there was a pig tail. Not every weight had pigtails though. Today it is always scored as a 32-man bracket with a pigtail. So, what is the difference? In a 64-man bracket everyone who wins a first round match in the championship (or consolation) bracket gets an extra point (or half point). For example, in a 64-man bracket the winner gets 5 advancement points instead of the current 4 points.

Placement - Placement points for third through eighth place were also different in 1997. We will also need to adjust Iowa’s total for these differences.

View attachment 53815
Putting It All Together

The 1997 Iowa team loses the extra 4.5 advancement points available in their 64-man brackets at 142, 158, 177, 190, and 275. But they get an extra bonus point at 150 as Lincoln McIlravy’s 1-point match terminations become 1.5-point tech falls. They also pick up an extra 5 placement points for their sixth and fifth place finishes.

View attachment 53816

Adding it all up and 1997 Iowa now has 171.5 points.

That is the real point record PSU needs to shoot for.
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Thanks MP. I remember reading about this somewhere but had no idea how to find it. You did all the work.
 
Placement points have been decreased in value without pause since the beginning of NCAA wrestling.

First, with advancement points added in 1955.

Then again when bonus points were added in 1972. Bonus points have been increasing in importance since they were first introduced until they got to their current configuration in 2016.

And within placement points, first and second have been devalued the most. They used to be worth as much as 89% of all points available, now they are not even worth 42% of placement points alone.

It has always been the case that a team can win with a small number of wrestlers doing very well, it is just harder now than it has ever been to do that.
 
So we could have PSU with the “points crown” and Iowa with the most individual champs (5-4)…… amazing programs!
 
bdhof said:
OK, who are these Nittany Lions challenging PSU's and IOWA's best team?

125-No. 3 Braeden Davis (Fr.)
133-No. 5 Aaron Nagao (So.)
141-No. 2 Beau Bartlett (Sr.)
149-No. 12 Tyler Kasak Fr.)
157-INo. 1 Levi Haines (So.)
165-No. 7 Mitchell Mesenbrink (R-Fr.)
174-No. 1 Carter Starocci (Sr.)
184-No. 5 Bernie Truax (Gr.)
197-No. 1 Aaron Brooks (Sr.)
285-No. 1 Greg Kerkviet (Sr.)

IMO the 4 #1s are all solid favorites, and again IMO 125, 133, and 141 are contenders for a title. That leaves 149 at #12, 165 at #7 (both AA bubbles IMO), and 184 at #5, a solid bet to AA. Time will tell if they beat that IOWA team. I'm calling it a tossup.
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I don't think it's a too big of a stretch, and I wouldn't be surprised at all to see Messenbrink win it all, and I'm a Buckeye fan. Kid is just that good.
 
bdhof said:
Best PSU team ever? Best NCAA team ever?
The final determination of these questions will be answered at the NCAAs in March, but, barring an underperformance or injuries, IMO both of these questions are answered by a YES! IM has their current NCAA team pts at 138. That would assume they all place at NCAAs were they are ranked. We know that won't happen, but will they underperform or overperform? That 138 puts them 5 pts behind the 143 PSU put on the board in 2012, a team w/ our own David Taylor, Ruth and Molinaro, all champs, along w/ 3 other AAs. The thing about the 138 is that it doesn't include bonus pts! I would put the over/under wager at 30 bonus pts for this team. That would blow the 2012 team away.

OK, they're likely the best PSU team, but are they the best NCAA team ever? That distinction belongs to the 1997 IOWA team coached by none other than the NCAA Wrestling Coach GOAT (as of now, anyway). That team had 5 NCAA champs, Whitner, Ironside (what a great name for a wrestler), McIlravy, Williams and Fullhart, along w/ 3 other AAs.
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There is absolutely no way to conclude this, every year every weight class is different. Points don't tell the entire story and thats obvious. How many points did St Ed's just score against St Paris Graham? How do you think they would do against Blair? The competition MATTERS in these sort of goofy comparisons, points are secondary.
 
MPhillips said:
@bdhof @Yankeefan33

Copied from a friend on another bbs.

Scoring 1997 v 2024

There are differences between then and now in all three elements of team scoring.

Bonus - In 1997 they distinguished between a tech fall without back points (called a match termination) and one with back points (called a tech fall). A match termination was worth 1 team point, while a tech fall was worth 1.5 team points. Today they are all worth 1.5 team points. So, we need to adjust Iowa’s total by adding a half point to any match terminations (foreshadowing – this will get tricky).

Advancement – In 1997 the tournament was scored as a 64-man bracket whenever there was a pig tail. Not every weight had pigtails though. Today it is always scored as a 32-man bracket with a pigtail. So, what is the difference? In a 64-man bracket everyone who wins a first round match in the championship (or consolation) bracket gets an extra point (or half point). For example, in a 64-man bracket the winner gets 5 advancement points instead of the current 4 points.

Placement - Placement points for third through eighth place were also different in 1997. We will also need to adjust Iowa’s total for these differences.

View attachment 53815
Putting It All Together

The 1997 Iowa team loses the extra 4.5 advancement points available in their 64-man brackets at 142, 158, 177, 190, and 275. But they get an extra bonus point at 150 as Lincoln McIlravy’s 1-point match terminations become 1.5-point tech falls. They also pick up an extra 5 placement points for their sixth and fifth place finishes.

View attachment 53816

Adding it all up and 1997 Iowa now has 171.5 points.

That is the real point record PSU needs to shoot for.
Click to expand...
Nice work putting that together. The real monkey wrench is how many of their decisions would become majors, or majors become techs, under today's match scoring of 3 point takedowns and up to 4 point nearfalls.
 
Insidetrip73 said:
There is absolutely no way to conclude this, every year every weight class is different. Points don't tell the entire story and thats obvious. How many points did St Ed's just score against St Paris Graham? How do you think they would do against Blair? The competition MATTERS in these sort of goofy comparisons, points are secondary.
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Competition does matter. But since they have outpaced the other champs by around 25 pts I'm calling the 97 Hawks the best team ever. That is unless PSU surpasses them this year. And in every sport these "goofy comparisons" are a fun way to discuss the history of sports. The GOAT baseball team? I'm going w/ the 27 Yankees and the Murderers' Row lineup w/ Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and Waite Hoyt leading the pitching staff (6 HOF'ers on the team). Could they beat the Texas Rangers (2023 WS champs)? No way to tell because all the Yankees are dead (I think). But I had to look it up to see who won the WS this year and can't name one guy on the Rangers' lineup. So, I'm picking the Yankees as the GOAT.
 
bdhof said:
Competition does matter. But since they have outpaced the other champs by around 25 pts I'm calling the 97 Hawks the best team ever. That is unless PSU surpasses them this year. And in every sport these "goofy comparisons" are a fun way to discuss the history of sports. The GOAT baseball team? I'm going w/ the 27 Yankees and the Murderers' Row lineup w/ Babe Ruth and Lou Gehrig and Waite Hoyt leading the pitching staff (6 HOF'ers on the team). Could they beat the Texas Rangers (2023 WS champs)? No way to tell because all the Yankees are dead (I think). But I had to look it up to see who won the WS this year and can't name one guy on the Rangers' lineup. So, I'm picking the Yankees as the GOAT.
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(y)
 
Insidetrip73 said:
There is absolutely no way to conclude this
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Not conclusively but total points scored are the only measurable statistic available. And even that isn't a, 'constant' as scoring, bonus, etc. change over the years. At this point in time Iowa has scored the most points at an NCAA tourney. It's irrefutable.

These things are just for fun not some grand declaration of the best teams ever.
You have a lifetime of wrestling knowledge and experiences that you could add to many of these conversations instead you choose to be cantankerous...

EDIT: I didn't see bdhof's response when I posted.
 
MPhillips said:
Not conclusively but total points scored are the only measurable statistic available. And even that isn't a, 'constant' as scoring, bonus, etc. change over the years. At this point in time Iowa has scored the most points at an NCAA tourney. It's irrefutable.

These things are just for fun not some grand declaration of the best teams ever.
You have a lifetime of wrestling knowledge and experiences that you could add to many of these conversations instead you choose to be cantankerous...

EDIT: I didn't see bdhof's response when I posted.
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Hmmm Cantankerous? Interesting ...Let me throw something out there for "fun" . Disagreeing isn't being "Cantankerous", it's not ok to disagree? You assume I'm disagreeing for "fun" ? How about if someone disagrees put up a valid debate to prove them wrong? lol. But you know as I do how this type of medium operates.....there are hierarchies...there are "relationships" to uphold even if those relationships are begun without the true knowledge of the persons intent or ....not via real team mates in the sport HS and College who are TRULY loyal and have been in your corner physically not via text, and understand your knowledge comes from experience not all here have. Not relationships with friends who have had your back and vice versa in many a bar brawl ;) I could care less if people agree with me here or not, but instead of playing the "ok forum buddies lets get him!" LOL Put up a decent rebuttal proving me wrong......FCS. And maybe in a rare few instances , no one is 100% right...I'm good with that! BUT FFS .....Just because points are a "measurable statistic" CAN NEVER CONCLUDE THE BEST TEAM EVER.
! How so because you say it??? Thats the only "measurable thing " you really got! Thats ridiculous ....the only thing you're saying is every wrestler on every team who ever put on a singlet and scored points has the EXACT EQUAL ability in opponents ! ? Every 106 pound champion is the exact same ability!! ?? Come on ...all I said is points are a bad measure of the "BEST in terms of elite or quality individuals" And that my friend is 100% non debatable and true. Sooo? Just say hey it's just for fun.....or accept the 100% true rebuttal as pertinent. How hard is that? I think I'm the nice guy here!
 
Here's another metric we can consider- the 1986 Iowa team scored 158 points at NCAAs. The second place Oklahoma Sooners scored 84.25 points, for a point differential of 73.75 points. We can't compare teams across years, but we can compare them against their competition, and 86 Iowa was further from the field than any other team in history.
 
Yankeefan33 said:
Here's another metric we can consider- the 1986 Iowa team scored 158 points at NCAAs. The second place Oklahoma Sooners scored 84.25 points, for a point differential of 73.75 points. We can't compare teams across years, but we can compare them against their competition, and 86 Iowa was further from the field than any other team in history.
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Of course the counter argument could be made that this was the weakest NCAA field of all time by comparison, and that Iowa walked through a bunch of fish.

I'm not saying that's the case, but I do think it's hard to compare against different eras. I personally was more impressed with the 2018 PSU team that beat Ohio State when I believe OSU had like 135 points.
 
Huckleberry said:
Of course the counter argument could be made that this was the weakest NCAA field of all time by comparison, and that Iowa walked through a bunch of fish.

I'm not saying that's the case, but I do think it's hard to compare against different eras. I personally was more impressed with the 2018 PSU team that beat Ohio State when I believe OSU had like 135 points.
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Exactly ....and 2018 PSU and a handful of others would have beaten Iowa 1986 team IMO, but there's no way to prove that. So if you're going to claim "Best team ever" the only way you have any credibility is to measure their opponents at the time. Look at the top 5 teams for starters and the elite competitors and the resume of those elite competitors at the top 5-10 schools. MANY people say Ed's 1998 or the 2000 team were BEST ever, I agree...first of all they competed the gauntlet of Ironman, Beast of the East, duals with Northampton , Easton and some other top teams with highly ranked individuals . Blair was loaded then too with elite guys like Mocco, Cooperman, 2 of the best alumnus ever at Blair...and another 7-8 guys with Fargo top placements and Ironman top 3 placements....those Ed's 98-2000 teams crushed them at their own gym, at Ironman at Beast of the East too. Ohio also was loaded in the late 90's, Walsh still had a handful of elite guys, Columbus area had Rowlands, Ratliff, Ott, and many many more ......The top guys for Ed's in those late 90's years had many Fargo top 3 placers and nationally ranked top 5 guys, they also had multiple Freshman Ironman placers and eventual champs. Those years also put up the MOST college AA's and qualifiers of ANY Ed's team ! .....As good as their teams in the mid 80's were they didn't have nearly the schedule Ed's did in later years either, not even close. THE POINT IS ...if you're going to conclude best ever have some statistics like I provided in the Eds comparison to validate it.
 
OK, since everyone loves to compare current teams to teams from decades ago, I'll update the PSU rankings.

125-No. 1 Braeden Davis (Fr.)
133-No. 8 Aaron Nagao (So.)
141-No. 2 Beau Bartlett (Sr.)
149-No. 7 Tyler Kasak Fr.)
157-INo. 1 Levi Haines (So.)
165-No. 2 Mitchell Mesenbrink (R-Fr.)
174-No. 1 Carter Starocci (Sr.)
184-No. 5 Bernie Truax (Gr.)
197-No. 1 Aaron Brooks (Sr.)
285-No. 1 Greg Kerkviet (Sr.)

This gives them 154 pts + bonus pts (IMO ~30). That would give them 180 or so, above the 170 (or 171.5 per MP adjustments) of the 1997 IOWA Hawks. Time will tell if PSU can pull it off, but I wouldn't bet against them. If they do, the arguments against them being the GOAT IMO might hinge on the # of champs and AAs they crown. For reference, IOWA had 5 champs and 8 AAs. But I'll keep my GOAT status w/ tournament pts.

4 or 5 years from now, it will be interesting to look back on this PSU team and count the # of 5X, 4X, 3X, 2X and 1X NCAA champs. It could be something we've never seen or will see again.
 
OK, I'm reviving this thread. PSU ran thru a few records to lay claim as the GOAT NCAA team. Did they prove their claim? Many of the "can't compare different eras" crowd will refuse to be moved. And the "3 pt takedown" crowd will argue that MDs and TFs are inflated w/ this change so you can't compare before 3 pt era teams to after 3 pt era team.

For the record here's what just happened. They squeaked by 1997 IOWA's previous record of 170 w/ 172.5. And yes, 3 pt takedowns played a role. They had 9 MDs and 8 TFs. Several of them likely wouldn't have happened w/o the 3 pt TD.

Their margin of victory was 100 pts, well past the previous record of 70 by 2005 OKST. And everybody got 3 pts for a TD, not just PSU.

They fell short of the most champs, 4 to 5 (by 2 IOWA teams and 1 PSU team).

They fell short on matching MINN 2001 team w/ 10 AAs. But no one outside of MINN would claim this team as the GOAT.

So, I could see a lot of valid arguments both ways on the GOAT issue. Here's where I think this team may be looked upon as the GOAT. They have 2 4x NCAA champs on this team - never been done before. And, one of those may be a 5x champ - never been done before. And the rest of the squad isn't too bad either. Haines, a SO and Kerk a JR both won NCAAs. Will Kerk end up a 2Xer and Haines a 3Xer? Who else on this team will end up w/ a NCAA title or multiple titles? Maybe #1 seed Davis, runnerups Barlett or Messenbrink. When you look back in 3 years and count the number of NCCA champs and 2Xers, 3Xers, 4Xers and a 5Xer on this team, you may be convinced. This is a great team and quite possibly the GOAT.

And not to short-circuit their GOAT status, but they only lose 2 guys this year - 4Xer Brooks and 4X AA Truax. I don't know who they are recruiting or poaching but they'll be bringing in some more studs (poached Messenbrink, Truax and Nagao this year and Kerk from tOSU a few years ago).

Finally, I can't ever think of a more dominant college coach in any sport than Cael. But I'll wait until he breaks Gable's record of 15 NCAA titles until I declare him the GOAT. Cael is sitting on 11.
 
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Their greatness is hard to argue with. The glaring difference in the two eras is the transfer portal. Cael is undoubtedly one of the best, if not the best, but it’s easy to look better when you have so many AAs transferring into your program. It makes it easier to cheer on a team like OSU that consistently develops their roster.
 
bdhof said:
And not to short-circuit their GOAT status, but they only lose 2 guys this year - 4Xer Brooks and 4X AA Truax. I don't know who they are recruiting or poaching but they'll be bringing in some more studs (poached Messenbrink, Truax and Nagao this year and Kerk from tOSU a few years ago).
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Rankings are Flo's:

Luke Lilledahl, #1 overall, U17 world champ and U20 silver
Zack Ryder, #5 overall, U17 bronze medalist
Joe Sealey, #6 overall, U17 world champ
Connor Mirasola, #11 overall, qualified for the Olympic trials as a high schooler
Mason Gibson, #14 overall
Cole Mirasola, #24 overall

Gibson will fall in the next rankings, he took some losses this year. The other five guys are damn good high school wrestlers.
 
Yankeefan33 said:
Rankings are Flo's:

Luke Lilledahl, #1 overall, U17 world champ and U20 silver
Zack Ryder, #5 overall, U17 bronze medalist
Joe Sealey, #6 overall, U17 world champ
Connor Mirasola, #11 overall, qualified for the Olympic trials as a high schooler
Mason Gibson, #14 overall
Cole Mirasola, #24 overall

Gibson will fall in the next rankings, he took some losses this year. The other five guys are damn good high school wrestlers.
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Crazy
 
Mr. Red said:
Their greatness is hard to argue with. The glaring difference in the two eras is the transfer portal. Cael is undoubtedly one of the best, if not the best, but it’s easy to look better when you have so many AAs transferring into your program. It makes it easier to cheer on a team like OSU that consistently develops their roster.
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Agree. But if OSU, or any other team gets on a 3-4 year championship roll they will get those transfers. They go with a winner. It will be hard to get on that roll though with Penn St currently having the upper hand. Nobody is loyal to a school, they will go with who is hot right now. Just to add, people want to wrestle for Cael. Thats were the loyalty is. If he went to another school, they would follow. I know that's probably obvious but.... up hill climb for other programs.
 
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It's all about the NLWC. The level of wrestling in their room aside from the best roster in country is insane. Current NLWC wrestlers are Bekzod Abdurakhmonov, Anthony Cassar, Jordan Conaway, Ceron Francisco, Thomas Gilman, Franklin Gomez, Nick Lee, Bo Nickal, Jason Nolf, Jennifer Page-Rogers, Zain Retherford, Josh Rodriguez, Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, and Morgan McIntosh. With Jake Varner and Jimmy Kennedy coaching those guys. You can just walk around that place and get better.
 
TheFan1 said:
It's all about the NLWC. The level of wrestling in their room aside from the best roster in country is insane. Current NLWC wrestlers are Bekzod Abdurakhmonov, Anthony Cassar, Jordan Conaway, Ceron Francisco, Thomas Gilman, Franklin Gomez, Nick Lee, Bo Nickal, Jason Nolf, Jennifer Page-Rogers, Zain Retherford, Josh Rodriguez, Kyle Snyder, David Taylor, and Morgan McIntosh. With Jake Varner and Jimmy Kennedy coaching those guys. You can just walk around that place and get better.
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Agree. That's hard to beat....for now.
 
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