Timing Question

R

runohio

Active member
Below are the times at a District girls race yesterday. As the runners cross the finish line 2 runners from team A finished ahead of a runner from team B based on their chips being read as they cross the finish line allowing team A to qualify for the Regionals by two point. Can an official or the timing person reverse the order by watching a steaming video finish were the times are taken to the 100th of a second and reverse the finish of the runners to move the runner from team B ahead of the two runners from team A and resulting in team A missing to qualify for the Regionals by one point.

20:08.6
20:08.9
20:09.1
(team B)20:09.5
(team A)20:09.5
(team A)20:09.5
20:09.8
 
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If I'm reading this correctly... the answer would be Yes. But something would have to trigger that happening (from my understanding of how it all works).
1) the official at the finish line calls out that order differently than what the results produced
2) the results produced don't match what the timer sees in real-time
3) a coach requests confirming results by video backup (I think there's a 30 minute window after the race)
4) timer does a video check after each race to look at and confirm each close finish

But there are definitely races that happen where the race Starts and Finishes and the results are what they are... nobody questions anything and you move on (and finish placements were missed).
 
NWO XCTF said:
If I'm reading this correctly... the answer would be Yes. But something would have to trigger that happening (from my understanding of how it all works).
1) the official at the finish line calls out that order differently than what the results produced
2) the results produced don't match what the timer sees in real-time
3) a coach requests confirming results by video backup (I think there's a 30 minute window after the race)
4) timer does a video check after each race to look at and confirm each close finish

But there are definitely races that happen where the race Starts and Finishes and the results are what they are... nobody questions anything and you move on (and finish placements were missed).
Click to expand...
#4 should always be happening in postseason races (at least what I’ve seen). At all the postseason meets I’ve attended, finishtiming has been doing that and have seen flips in race results sometimes after the top ten finished 10-15 minutes ago.
 
This is just a reminder because I can tell from the replies that everyone realizes this; the chip is in the shoelaces. This means it is very possible in a close race for runner Y's torso to cross the line first while runner Z's foot/chip crosses first. This would put runner Z ahead in the chip timed results but overturned if appealed.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I tend to miss something more times than not.
 
They didn’t even use chips at our Districts. (Cederville) They placed runners by camera results. Finish timing has been doing this all season at meets we have attended and it has seemed almost if not just as fast as when they use chips.
 
Newton's Third said:
This is just a reminder because I can tell from the replies that everyone realizes this; the chip is in the shoelaces. This means it is very possible in a close race for runner Y's torso to cross the line first while runner Z's foot/chip crosses first. This would put runner Z ahead in the chip timed results but overturned if appealed.

Please correct me if I am wrong. I tend to miss something more times than not.
Click to expand...

This District the timing chips were on their bib number..
 
Got this back...Thanks...

If meet management authorized the use of an "image-based timing system", the finish evaluator with the approval of the Referee can adjust the chip order of finish. The image-based timing system must be one that has been officially designated by the meet manager before the start of the event. When chips are used without an authorized image-based timing system, the official order of finish for runners is the one recorded by the chips.
 
Sorry, but that is garbage. The effort should be to get it right. At the District, Regional and State level, it should be video confirmed for every runner.

Passive chips in bibs are accurate to 1/10th of a second.
Active chips are about 1/100th
What if a chip malfunctions? Is encoded wrong? Is lost/ falls off ?
Take 5-10 minutes and get it right.
 
psycho_dad said:
Sorry, but that is garbage. The effort should be to get it right. At the District, Regional and State level, it should be video confirmed for every runner.

Passive chips in bibs are accurate to 1/10th of a second.
Active chips are about 1/100th
What if a chip malfunctions? Is encoded wrong? Is lost/ falls off ?
Take 5-10 minutes and get it right.
Click to expand...
... or, like in the 2004 girls D2 state championship when the wrong chips were given to an entire team by meet management?
 
Not sure who is giving the timing info but I know for a fact that the voa and cedarville districts used chips on the bib as we have been testing them all year at larger meets. We verify all placing with the camera so there might be a time to where the chip picked up a different order but was corrected by camera. We had one missed chip that was 10th place so for about a minute or so he was not showing but was corrected and it bumped everyone back a spot. We have always used chips at league, district, regional and state and this was and is the process every time.

I had a conversation with our local health dept at the start of this season about how they suggest we handle our XC meets by explaining how a meet works that we are timing. They said they would suggest using our disposable bib option or just cameras and to not have large display boards at the finish. They felt without the displays at most venues it would keep people from grouping to get pics and watch it and so forth.
We have moved from foot chips this year just to eliminate the need for coaches to have to handle them multiple times. We also have not used display boards. If you are in a stadium we can use boards because the grouping is not as big of a problem.
You or I may not agree with this but my goal was for us to get to November and I did not want another track season scenario.
 
stew said:
They didn’t even use chips at our Districts. (Cederville) They placed runners by camera results. Finish timing has been doing this all season at meets we have attended and it has seemed almost if not just as fast as when they use chips.
Click to expand...
Yes the chips were in the bib at cedarville and voa. Look at the front of the bib just above the number and below. there are 2 chips on each bib. We did use cameras most of the year as it is just as easy to read 150 runners or less with camera as it is to setup a chip system and prepare chips.
 
Sorry. I didn’t even notice the chips on the front of the bibs. We have had a lot of meets done by finishtiming associates this year and they never used chips. Also races in the past that we have attended and used bib chips, the chips where on the back and quite noticeable. Does bib chips increase your cost a lot?
 
stew said:
Sorry. I didn’t even notice the chips on the front of the bibs. We have had a lot of meets done by finishtiming associates this year and they never used chips. Also races in the past that we have attended and used bib chips, the chips where on the back and quite noticeable. Does bib chips increase your cost a lot?
Click to expand...
If you see the blue timing lines at the finish then we are using chips. We made the decision this year to use cameras at most meets since it was only 150 or less per race it is just as easy to do that. OHSAA asked if we could use disposable this year at least at regionals and state and I told them we would test to make sure it would be as good of a system as what we have been using. They took that as yes we are using disposable and put that in all the memos. So we purchased enough systems and chips to try it this year. We will most likely be switching to this for all future races. Bib chips are more expensive than foot chips in the long run as a foot chip is used many times over. I have foot chips that are over 8 years old so I only paid for them once. Foot chips are a little more accurate from what we have found and we have to be a lot more careful with how we lay out finish areas and not allow people too close in case they are wearing their bib. The system automatically calculates the athletes time as they are at the finishline but if someone is just standing there it will just give them a time and put them into that race. (So a boy/girl cheering on his/her team mates in another race could show up in the wrong race and skew the team scoring). We put the chips on the front as the disposable chips need a barrier between the body and the chip as they do not work as well when wet or up against the body. That's also the reason we use 2 per bib. Some people use a foam backing on the chip but cost wise it is the same as using 2 chips.
Plus now with the disposable chips there is no coach collecting or passing them out and we do not have to get them back and sanitize and sort to get ready for the next week. Packets are much smaller and it is all much easier for coaches when handing them out (although we have had coaches give wrong bibs to their teams a couple times then complain results were wrong, as soon as you show them the picture they understand)
To answer your question yes it does add to our cost and we have told all hosts this year that it would, but we are making it a 50/50 split in that we pay half of the cost of the chip and they pay half with the increase. It save them volunteers at finishline and also coaches don’t have to collect and return anymore and we are not chasing coaches trying to get them back.
 
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