Spartacus1987
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In the 21st century they’ve recruited Milwaukee better
Big Ten Basketball 2023
- Thread starter Spartacus1987
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Stirred not Shaken
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Again how did Shaka do at Tx? Why is it that Syracuse which made the tourney annually when in the Big East now struggles to do so, same with W. Va. and UC. I guess all coincidental? Put Marquette in the BIG with a 20 game league schedule and see how they do, my guess is 500.
Edit: Shaka Smart is a good coach he did not become dumb just because he was at Tx. What changed: the competition: in a conference like the BIG 12 you don't get nights off like playing Georgetown, Depaul, etc. every night is almost a grind even vs the middle teams.
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You’ve sewn up the dumbest post of the day and it’s not even 11 a.m. ET. Well done.
1. The Big East isn’t a mid-major.
2. Syracuse got worse because: a) Boeheim got too old and lazy to keep up with recruiting, and there was consistent uncertainty with how long he was going to keep coaching; b) Syracuse lost its identity when it left the Big East. Syracuse basketball was all about big rivalries with Georgetown, UConn, Villanova, etc. and playing in the Big East Tourney at MSG. They have no connection with Tobacco Road and playing down in Greensboro, NC.
3. West Virginia is a pretty similar deal. Huggins got old and lost his fastball and WVU has no connection with any of the Big 12 schools it was playing against. It was a geographic fish out of water with the rest of its league in the Great Plains and Texas.
4. UC was up and down in the Big East, similar to how they’ve been since. They obviously weren’t going to be good going from the American to the Big 12 in Year 1 as they try to rebuild the mess that John Brannen’s tenure created.
5. The Big East holds recent national titles with Villanova (2016, 2018) and UConn (2023), as well as UConn in 1999, 2004 and 2011 as a Big East member (and 2014 as an AAC member). Past members Syracuse won in 2003 and Louisville won in 2013, and the league has boasted numerous Final Four and title game appearances over the years. The league far outclasses the Big Ten in terms of national titles.
6. Marquette won at Illinois this year, beat Kansas, smoked Texas, and yes, lost to Wisconsin and a Maui thriller to Purdue. They would’ve probably finished second or third in the Big Ten just like they did in the Big East.
7. With Dan Hurley, Rick Pitino, Sean Miller, Ed Cooley, Greg McDermott, Shaka Smart and Thad Matta, the Big East has a significantly better group of coaches than the Big Ten right now. Kim English also appears to have a bright future. The Big Ten has Matt Painter, Tom Izzo, Chris Collins and Brad Underwood. After that it gets a lot shakier for the Big Ten’s coaches.
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Congrats on naming the two Big East teams that stunk this year. People could similarly point out that Michigan stunk like those two teams, and it’s not like Rutgers, Maryland and Penn State were putting any fear into anyone.
The same can be said of Maryland to the B1G. They had the long geographic and competitive rivalries, recruiting base, basketball-first conference while in the ACC. Their hoops identity has been lost in the B1G.
Your point about the coaches in the Big East and B1G resonates with me, as I believe the B1G has its worst overall slate of coaches in my lifetime. Even the coaches you mentioned would be second tier in the Big East (Izzo mainly due to age at this point).
I will say that Tom Penders and Rick Barnes did a lot more with Texas than did Shaka.
Spartacus1987
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Could not have been said better myself. There is no comparison between the Big Ten and Big East. Big East has been miles ahead at success in the NCAA tournament
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I 100% agree about Maryland. They were all about rivalries with UVA, UNC and especially Duke. Those Maryland-Duke games in the early 2000s were always among the most anticipated and fiercest must-watch games of the season. They belong in the ACC.
But they sold out for the almighty dollar and in exchange gave away what made their program good and special.
Stirred not Shaken
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LOL just a coincidence that these schools after leaving the big East they fell on their face. Why could Smart win at Marquette and not at TX? Competition, or is Smart only smart at Marquette.
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I don’t know. Email the Marquette SID and request an interview with Shaka and you can ask him for his insight on that.
Outside of one very bad year, his Texas results were more mediocre than bad. He posted 5 of 6 winning seasons and made the tourney three times (probably would’ve been 4 if not for 2020’s tourney getting canceled) but didn’t get it done in the tourney.
Given what he did at VCU and what he’s doing at Marquette, I judge him to be a pretty solid coach. I don’t see many bad coaches getting to a Final Four.
Stirred not Shaken
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So would I but he could not replicate the same results at Tx. even though he had much better recruits. Speaking of look at Big East recruiting vs the Power 5 conference's how often does the Big East have a top 15 recruiting class not too often. I counted 3 in the last 4 years according to 247 sports. These schools in the Big East would not replicate their reg. season success in a power 5 conference. There are facts UC, Syr., W.V. and then they're opinions.
Edit: Hell even Holtmann won in the Big East when he was at Butler.
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nwwarrior09
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Fit and dynamics matter.
More power brokers and big boosters (and meddlers) at Texas, Alabama, Ohio State, etc. than at a smaller school without a major football program.
A lot of these coaches "fit" a lot better at a smaller private school where basketball comes first than in a giant fish bowl.
More power brokers and big boosters (and meddlers) at Texas, Alabama, Ohio State, etc. than at a smaller school without a major football program.
A lot of these coaches "fit" a lot better at a smaller private school where basketball comes first than in a giant fish bowl.
Stirred not Shaken
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That might be true but no power 5 coach is going to leave a P5 job for a Big East job except maybe UConn but lot of Big East coaches (I imagine) would leave for P5 jobs.
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You seem to be arguing that teams who left the Big East were mainly seen as good because the Big East was easier than football power conferences. If that were true, these teams would have had poor tourney results while in the Big East.
Yet, Syracuse won the national title in 2003. In their last few seasons prior to leaving the Big East, they were consistently making the second weekend of the tournament, including making the Elite Eight in 2012 and the Final Four in 2013. In their first ACC year, they went 28-6, dominating the ACC that season before they started to slip. Even with Boeheim’s slippage, they still made the Final Four in 2016 and the Sweet 16 in 2018 and 2021. Syracuse was 50-26 overall in the NCAA Tournament as a Big East member, which is essentially equivalent to averaging a trip to the Sweet 16 anytime they made the tourney.
West Virginia had a shorter Big East tenure, but also had tournament success. They made the Elite Eight in 2005 and the Sweet 16 in 2006 and 2008 prior to their Final Four run in 2010. Huggins slipped to 19-14 in WVU’s final Big East season before two underwhelming years to start in the Big 12. Then, starting in 2014-15, he went 25-10, 26-9, 28-9, and 26-11 in four consecutive Big 12 years, matching or bettering any records WVU was putting up in its Big East seasons. After that is when Huggins really started to slip. Overall, WVU had a 14-8 tourney record as a Big East member, equivalent to a Sweet 16 run 3 out of every 4 years when making the tourney.
Cincinnati missed the tourney its first five years in the Big East, all of which were in the wake of Bob Huggins’ dismissal. Andy Kennedy went 21-13 in 05-06 before getting McNamara’ed in the Big East Tourney. Then Mick Cronin went 11-19, 13-19, 18-14 and 19-16 his first four seasons. It was only in UC’s final three Big East seasons (2011-13) that they found success, including a Sweet 16 trip in 2012. UC then joined the American in 2013-14 and immediately started putting up dominant regular season records until Mick Cronin left for UCLA.
Some other NCAA Tourney records as Big East members:
UConn 55-17
Villanova 53-26
Georgetown 45-26
Louisville 17-6
Xavier 9-6
Creighton 8-6
Boston College 16-11
Seton Hall 16-14
Pitt 18-17 (remember that under Jamie Dixon, they were ones for awhile who had the toughest time making a big tourney run)
Your argument isn’t adding up.
If you were to say the Big East had a transition period for several years after the football schools left a decade ago, that much would be true. Even so, that’s when Villanova had turned into a consistent national title threat. But today the conference is healthier overall and the best it’s been since the departures of the football schools.
nwwarrior09
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Particularly Big Ten and SEC...those schools have a lot more money than Big East schools due to TV money from football.
Of course most would leave.
Stirred not Shaken
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My argument is if you put 80% of those schools in a P5 conference they would never make the NCAA tourney. And I forgot about Pitt. Didn't they win several Big East Titles but in ACC (except maybe for the last 2 years) been a middle of the road to back of the pack team. Also, BC a former NCAA regular when a member of the Big East how many times have the Eagles made the tourney since they joined the ACC? 2 more former Big East teams that have flopped since joining P5 conferences along with UC, Syr., WV all just a coincidence.
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Pitt: Was mostly very good in the Big East under Jamie Dixon, although a poor 5-13 Big East record in 2011-12 showed the first signs of the program taking a clear step back. Once they moved to the ACC, Dixon still had Pitt in the tournament two of his last three years. Then he left for his alma mater, TCU. Pitt made the disastrous decision to hire Kevin Stallings, who turned them into an instant laughingstock. He only lasted two years and Jeff Capel was an iffy hire to replace Stallings. Only recently has he been finding his footing.
Coaching matters. When a coach gets too old or bolts from your program, you’re likely going to take a step back, no matter what conference you’re in. There are countless examples around the country of that. Remember the latter years of Bob Knight at Indiana? Very mediocre. Remember when Dean Smith retired and Bill Guthridge didn’t last long and then Matt Doherty had UNC down bad? Remember the forgettable short stint of Kevin O’Neill at Arizona after Lute Olson retired?
As I’ve said, there is also the reality of your program losing its identity due to a conference move. Syracuse and BC in particular are northeast, traditional Big East teams. They have no identity or rivalries in the ACC. Same goes with Pitt. Same goes for Maryland, an ACC school that doesn’t fit in the Big Ten. That hurts recruiting which obviously hurts results.
Most of the Big East would be fine in the ACC or Big Ten or SEC. DePaul would stink no matter what conference they’re in, and right now same with GTown, although Ed Cooley will probably build them up pretty quickly after Patrick Ewing torpedoed the program. It’s been a bit now, but GTown was a legit Final Four-caliber team with Roy Hibbert, Jeff Green, etc. With the right coach, it can be done again. With the right hire, Nova can quickly be a power again. I don’t think Kyle Neptune is the right guy. The rest of the league, which is already a power conference, would look the same in a different conference as they looked this year.
Spartacus1987
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Michigan State played solid early on but didn’t get a big enough lead. UNC is just too big and too fast for them. It’s crazy for how big UNC is they are equally fast. Those are the types of players Ohio State needs to get, the 6’8 wings that are still quick and can shoot
Spartacus1987
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This game for Michigan State was lost in recruiting. Look how many big/athletic people UNC had that are between 6’8-6’10 and can shoot. You need more of those types of players if you want to win these games.
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I haven’t watched a ton of UNC this season, but having Armando Bacot as the stalwart inside, with Withers, Washington and even Ingram adding size and rebounding ability was the difference in that game.
Big Ten teams are slowly but surely getting picked off one by one, like unsuspecting squirrels prancing through a dewey meadow as a hawk’s nest oversees the proceedings from a nearby tree.
Big Ten teams are slowly but surely getting picked off one by one, like unsuspecting squirrels prancing through a dewey meadow as a hawk’s nest oversees the proceedings from a nearby tree.
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The B1G team that can reach a Final Four, Illinois, is too inconsistent and under-coached to actually make it that far…even if they might have the best player in the tourney (Shannon).
Spartacus1987
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Not only is UNC big but they are fast, their big men can all move including Bacot. Only team that can match them is UCONN I think
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Dusty May is headed to Michigan, according to multiple reports.
Spartacus1987
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Oakland looked awful. Everyone knew they shot their wad against the Blue cats.
Spartacus1987
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Solid hire but Dusty May hasn’t been impressive outside of one season.
Spartacus1987
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They should beat Iowa State but don’t see them beating UCONN.
MentorGrad2002
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You weren't paying attention then...
He took a program that had 5 total winning seasons all time and led them to 6 winning seasons in a row
We only had 1 NCAA tourney bid all time before him. Back to back bids the last 2 years and a final 4. This year FAU beat Arizona, Texas A&M, Memphis, Charleston, St Bonaventure, Virginia tech , Butler etc out of conference.
Way less resources at FAU too. Our gym holds like 3,000 only.
The guy did a heck of a job. Unfortunately I can't root for him at Michigan. One of only 9 schools I can't stand in college sports
Stirred not Shaken
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Big East is one team UConn. However 3 teams do not make a conference, Marq. Creighton, UConn.
Edit: I know it is only the NIT, but Seton Hall had a whopping 1200 people in attd. yesterday for their home NIT game. Hard to take a program serious with that type of attd.
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