Northwest Ohio Realignment

[chs1971]

When the Northern Lakes League issued their press release stating that they were "looking to expand" to a 16 team, 2 division league was that just a couple of guys in the NLL office thinking that would be a great idea and they went with it? OR, did all 8 current NLL members get together and decide that would be a good way to go. IF it were all the members were they thinking of adding 8 small schools? 2 large schools and 6 small schools? 4 large schools and 4 small schools? Did they consider where those schools might be located? 8 small schools would probably put Bowling Green and Southview in with the current large schools. The closest large schools are the private schools, if not them do they add Whitmer and Clay and 6 small schools? If they want to add 4 large schools then the choices are 2 privates, Whitmer and Clay or 3 privates and Whitmer. If they only want to add public schools, the choice of 4 is Whitmer, Clay, Ross and Findlay. Either way do they have enough small schools that are close enough to the current members to satisfy them? Did the NLL consider the options or was this just a spur of the moment thing. I do not think that any league does anything on the spur of the moment but if they want a geographically close 16 team league, they clearly didn't think this through.

The only guy in the NLL "office" is their commissioner, and it's just a part-time job.

The high school principals run the league as a committee. The commissioner is not going to move on anything without their authority.

I have no idea what schools they have talked to or not talked to. I have no idea what schools they have even considered. This is not a spur of the moment thing. Maumee & Napoleon have both expressed concerns about enrollment size differences for a few years.

I think it's clear that the league would like to create something that serves it's 8 members as best as possible. I believe the press release indicates that they do not have 16 schools lined up.

Just my opinion, but the press release might not be much more than a gesture to show Maumee & Napoleon "Hey, we're trying."

The TRAC has it's own issues. Clay and Fremont don't like their situation and some (all?) of the public schools have issues with the three Catholic schools. Plus Lima Sr., which is another conversation.

So the 8 NLL schools and 4 of the TRAC schools are looking for a way to do something together. They need 4 smaller schools, or 3 smalls and keep Lima, but I don't see who they are.

 

[smurfyeah19]

The only guy in the NLL "office" is their commissioner, and it's just a part-time job.

The high school principals run the league as a committee. The commissioner is not going to move on anything without their authority.

I have no idea what schools they have talked to or not talked to. I have no idea what schools they have even considered. This is not a spur of the moment thing. Maumee & Napoleon have both expressed concerns about enrollment size differences for a few years.

I think it's clear that the league would like to create something that serves it's 8 members as best as possible. I believe the press release indicates that they do not have 16 schools lined up.

Just my opinion, but the press release might not be much more than a gesture to show Maumee & Napoleon "Hey, we're trying."

My problem is it’s waving the white flag. I get Napoleon having concerns, but Maumee is literally right by all these schools. For parents to be inconvenienced just because the athletic department cannot field a decent program has to suck. Needing a demotion (Maumee and Woodmore) is quite embarrassing and the ones who suffer are the families

 

[chs1971]

My problem is it’s waving the white flag. I get Napoleon having concerns, but Maumee is literally right by all these schools. For parents to be inconvenienced just because the athletic department cannot field a decent program has to suck. Needing a demotion (Maumee and Woodmore) is quite embarrassing and the ones who suffer are the families

What?

 

[ToledoGuy]

They need 4 smaller schools, or 3 smalls and keep Lima, but I don't see who they are.

Wauseon, Bryan, Defiance, and a 4th other team (Liberty-Benton or another NWOAL team). If the NWOAL/TAAC thing happens, it's pretty clear that that's the way it's going to go.

 

[chs1971]

Wauseon, Bryan, Defiance, and a 4th other team (Liberty-Benton or another NWOAL team). If the NWOAL/TAAC thing happens, it's pretty clear that that's the way it's going to go.

So if the NWOAL/TAAC thing happens,
and if Wauseon and Bryan believe the NLL is their answer,
and if Defiance decides to leave the WBL,

you still need one or it doesn't happen.

Maybe Lima.

 

[NLLBEST]

Ehhhhh...I think you're forgetting about nearly every sport. Outside of one year of softball and volleyball, there hasn't be a girls sport win more than 25% of their league games since like 2011. To me, in an AD like Maumee's you've got to make a decision for every sport, not just one...at some point have every team be competitive 1/10 years is not worth the easy drives and kills any of the potential benefits of sports for kids (because none of them want to play anymore).

Now go find me the years Maumee has had really successful girls athletics. The fact is the girls sports have rarely been much better at Maumee than they were the last decade. The boys sports have been able to compete or have had the athletes to compete in the NLL until the last couple of years. In my opinion if the board had voted to move to the nbc ten years ago it would have been a mistake.

 

[CCHS93]

When the Northern Lakes League issued their press release stating that they were "looking to expand" to a 16 team, 2 division league was that just a couple of guys in the NLL office thinking that would be a great idea and they went with it? OR, did all 8 current NLL members get together and decide that would be a good way to go. IF it were all the members were they thinking of adding 8 small schools? 2 large schools and 6 small schools? 4 large schools and 4 small schools? Did they consider where those schools might be located? 8 small schools would probably put Bowling Green and Southview in with the current large schools. The closest large schools are the private schools, if not them do they add Whitmer and Clay and 6 small schools? If they want to add 4 large schools then the choices are 2 privates, Whitmer and Clay or 3 privates and Whitmer. If they only want to add public schools, the choice of 4 is Whitmer, Clay, Ross and Findlay. Either way do they have enough small schools that are close enough to the current members to satisfy them? Did the NLL consider the options or was this just a spur of the moment thing. I do not think that any league does anything on the spur of the moment but if they want a geographically close 16 team league, they clearly didn't think this through.

Part of the problem overall is northwest Ohio's small size overall. What the NLL wants is a goldielocks situation that breaks down if barely one or two schools back out. There are not a lot of options.

There are only 16 D1 and D2 schools in the area (Whitmer, Findlay, PBurg, Start, Bowsher for D1 and CCHS, SJJ, SFS, Clay, Fremont, Lima, AW, NV, SV, Springfield, Waite for D2). There are about the same for D3 and D4 but the schools get more and more spread out.

There arent many options if one or two schools back out. The NLL is trying to build. Toledo version of the OCC. The problem with that is that metro Toledo is not metro Columbus. There arent enough schools for that to work. I think that is part of the reason that the public/private partnership lasted so long here.

In Columbus, the private schools are mostly D3 or smaller. Plus there are plenty of large OCC potential schools. In Cleveland, there are plenty of large publics. Also there are many Catholic schools that they are mostly in the same league. Cincinnati is the same.

But Toledo, while being the 4th largest city in Ohio, is the 6th largest metro area. We are at the point of having to get creative. Thats why I think some sort of combination of urban, suburban, small town, and private is best for this area. It wouldnt work elsewhere and, frankly, doesnt need to. But it has worked here for a long time (City League up until 2010 or so and then the TRAC since). It was never perfect, but it was a unique (in Ohio) attempt to make the best of the situation.

 

[NLLBEST]

What?

A guy who doesn’t get it. His answer to competing with schools over twice your size is “get better coaches” and “buckle down”. I wonder why he won’t take the $6,000 for 10 months of work.

 

[CCHS93]

So if the NWOAL/TAAC thing happens,
and if Wauseon and Bryan believe the NLL is their answer,
and if Defiance decides to leave the WBL,

you still need one or it doesn't happen.

Maybe Lima.

If gate reciepts are any part of the discussion, Lima wont get brought in. The teams are used to travelling but their fans do not. They really dont even come out for home games either.

 

[smurfyeah19]

Part of the problem overall is northwest Ohio's small size overall. What the NLL wants is a goldielocks situation that breaks down if barely one or two schools back out. There are not a lot of options.

There are only 16 D1 and D2 schools in the area (Whitmer, Findlay, PBurg, Start, Bowsher for D1 and CCHS, SJJ, SFS, Clay, Fremont, Lima, AW, NV, SV, Springfield, Waite for D2). There are about the same for D3 and D4 but the schools get more and more spread out.

There arent many options if one or two schools back out. The NLL is trying to build. Toledo version of the OCC. The problem with that is that metro Toledo is not metro Columbus. There arent enough schools for that to work. I think that is part of the reason that the public/private partnership lasted so long here.

In Columbus, the private schools are mostly D3 or smaller. Plus there are plenty of large OCC potential schools. In Cleveland, there are plenty of large publics. Also there are many Catholic schools that they are mostly in the same league. Cincinnati is the same.

But Toledo, while being the 4th largest city in Ohio, is the 6th largest metro area. We are at the point of having to get creative. Thats why I think some sort of combination of urban, suburban, small town, and private is best for this area. It wouldnt work elsewhere and, frankly, doesnt need to. But it has worked here for a long time (City League up until 2010 or so and then the TRAC since). It was never perfect, but it was a unique (in Ohio) attempt to make the best of the situation.

Post of the thread

 

[irish_buffalo]

If gate reciepts are any part of the discussion, Lima wont get brought in. The teams are used to travelling but their fans do not. They really dont even come out for home games either.

Basketball they do. And when they have a good product, like most schools, they can pack the house. When they had that dynamite class with Flowers and Thomas several years ago they put butts in the seats.

 

[irish_buffalo]

Part of the problem overall is northwest Ohio's small size overall. What the NLL wants is a goldielocks situation that breaks down if barely one or two schools back out. There are not a lot of options.

There are only 16 D1 and D2 schools in the area (Whitmer, Findlay, PBurg, Start, Bowsher for D1 and CCHS, SJJ, SFS, Clay, Fremont, Lima, AW, NV, SV, Springfield, Waite for D2). There are about the same for D3 and D4 but the schools get more and more spread out.

There arent many options if one or two schools back out. The NLL is trying to build. Toledo version of the OCC. The problem with that is that metro Toledo is not metro Columbus. There arent enough schools for that to work. I think that is part of the reason that the public/private partnership lasted so long here.

In Columbus, the private schools are mostly D3 or smaller. Plus there are plenty of large OCC potential schools. In Cleveland, there are plenty of large publics. Also there are many Catholic schools that they are mostly in the same league. Cincinnati is the same.

But Toledo, while being the 4th largest city in Ohio, is the 6th largest metro area. We are at the point of having to get creative. Thats why I think some sort of combination of urban, suburban, small town, and private is best for this area. It wouldnt work elsewhere and, frankly, doesnt need to. But it has worked here for a long time (City League up until 2010 or so and then the TRAC since). It was never perfect, but it was a unique (in Ohio) attempt to make the best of the situation.

Good insight but you continue to overlook the biggest factor. Some schools gaming the system and playing by different and advantageous rules. That is the sole reason this is being discussed.

 

[ToledoGuy]

So if the NWOAL/TAAC thing happens,
and if Wauseon and Bryan believe the NLL is their answer,
and if Defiance decides to leave the WBL,

you still need one or it doesn't happen.

Maybe Lima.

If the NWOAL thing happens Bryan and Wauseon would need a home...so if #1 happens, then #2 would as well IMO. #3 would closely follow as well.

Again...I keep mentioning L-B for a reason. I'm not pulling them out of thin air.

Could it be easier to replace Swanton, Evergreen, and Delta with Maumee, Napoleon, and Defiance in the NWOAL? Sure...but you're going to need a 4th there too because PH would leave in a second and a half, maybe they get BG?

The truth of this whole thing is that it depends on what happens with the TAAC/NWOAL merger, which seems more and more likely by the day in the perspective of the people I speak with. If that happens something else will HAVE to give, because PH is going to take that as a sign too.

 

[ober_PHfan]

PH only moves if forced to. And the league disbanding or adding much larger teams forces them IMO. It's BVC or NWC which they have invites from both from what I'm told.

 

[chs1971]

If the NWOAL thing happens Bryan and Wauseon would need a home...so if #1 happens, then #2 would as well IMO. #3 would closely follow as well.

Again...I keep mentioning L-B for a reason. I'm not pulling them out of thin air.

Could it be easier to replace Swanton, Evergreen, and Delta with Maumee, Napoleon, and Defiance in the NWOAL? Sure...but you're going to need a 4th there too because PH would leave in a second and a half, maybe they get BG?

The truth of this whole thing is that it depends on what happens with the TAAC/NWOAL merger, which seems more and more likely by the day in the perspective of the people I speak with. If that happens something else will HAVE to give, because PH is going to take that as a sign too.

If Elmwood or Woodmore leave, the NBC makes a lot more sense for L-B.

Add BG, Defiance, Maumee, & Napoleon to the NWOAL and why do Liberty-Center & Archbold stay?

 

[BGSUGrad]

If the NWOAL thing happens Bryan and Wauseon would need a home...so if #1 happens, then #2 would as well IMO. #3 would closely follow as well.

Again...I keep mentioning L-B for a reason. I'm not pulling them out of thin air.

I don’t get the LB move. They would be 3x their travel and while more competitive what would a league like that provide? More losses in the season, less league titles, a better chance to what? At some point they may outgrow the BVC but at a D5 football school it’s not this round of realignment.

 

[BGSUGrad]

If Elmwood or Woodmore leave the NBC makes more sense for L-B.

BG is not going to the NWOAL.

But again if the BVC is picking up D5 Elmwood, why leave? The league would have 2 division 5 school, 2 division 6 schools and a handful of division 7. That’s not a crazy jump for any of the teams.

 

[chs1971]

A guy who doesn’t get it. His answer to competing with schools over twice your size is “get better coaches” and “buckle down”. I wonder why he won’t take the $6,000 for 10 months of work.

And Maumee has had some good coaches.

 

[chs1971]

But again if the BVC is picking up D5 Elmwood, why leave? The league would have 2 division 5 school, 2 division 6 schools and a handful of division 7. That’s not a crazy jump for any of the teams.

I agree.

 

[chs1971]

Part of the problem overall is northwest Ohio's small size overall. What the NLL wants is a goldielocks situation that breaks down if barely one or two schools back out. There are not a lot of options.

There are only 16 D1 and D2 schools in the area (Whitmer, Findlay, PBurg, Start, Bowsher for D1 and CCHS, SJJ, SFS, Clay, Fremont, Lima, AW, NV, SV, Springfield, Waite for D2). There are about the same for D3 and D4 but the schools get more and more spread out.

There arent many options if one or two schools back out. The NLL is trying to build. Toledo version of the OCC. The problem with that is that metro Toledo is not metro Columbus. There arent enough schools for that to work. I think that is part of the reason that the public/private partnership lasted so long here.

In Columbus, the private schools are mostly D3 or smaller. Plus there are plenty of large OCC potential schools. In Cleveland, there are plenty of large publics. Also there are many Catholic schools that they are mostly in the same league. Cincinnati is the same.

But Toledo, while being the 4th largest city in Ohio, is the 6th largest metro area. We are at the point of having to get creative. Thats why I think some sort of combination of urban, suburban, small town, and private is best for this area. It wouldnt work elsewhere and, frankly, doesnt need to. But it has worked here for a long time (City League up until 2010 or so and then the TRAC since). It was never perfect, but it was a unique (in Ohio) attempt to make the best of the situation.

The NLL doesn't have 16 teams, too hot or too cold.

 

[ober_PHfan]

If Elmwood or Woodmore leave, the NBC makes a lot more sense for L-B.

Add BG, Defiance, Maumee, & Napoleon to the NWOAL and why do Liberty-Center & Archbold stay?

LC already plays Napoleon, Wauseon and Bryan in Football and quite regularly win. They would beat Defiance most of the last 10 years as they would Maumee and BG up until the last year or two.As would Archbold. PH is just way too small now and not gonna get any bigger. LC is gonna increase in size with 24.

 

[ToledoGuy]

If Elmwood or Woodmore leave, the NBC makes a lot more sense for L-B.

Add BG, Defiance, Maumee, & Napoleon to the NWOAL and why do Liberty-Center & Archbold stay?

You're kind of answering why this whole thing will happen if TAAC/NWOAL does with that statement. All the NLL has to do is find a fourth to match with Wauseon, Bryan, and Defiance in that scenario and you're all set (I'm still inclined to believe L-B or Archbold would be involved there). PH would bolt, leaving 4 teams in the NWOAL (Bryan, Wauseon, Archbold, and LC). Way easier for those four to join the NLL/NBC than to try to get 4 to join their conference that was just hollowed out, regardless of history.

To me, the 16 teams are pretty clear...no idea why you're struggling with the logic here.

Whitmer, Findlay, Fremont, and Clay
Defiance, Wauseon, Bryan, and LB, LC, or Archbold. That 4th team is whichever of the 3 the other 7 small schools division teams want more or whichever is left standing if the NBC decided to invite some of them. They will NEED to find homes, thats what drives the small school division.

 

[RollingTrain]

You're kind of answering why this whole thing will happen in TAAC/NWOAL does with that statement. All the NLL has to do is find a fourth to match with Wauseon, Bryan, and Defiance in that scenario and you're all set (I'm still inclined to believe L-B or Archbold would be involved there).

I’m inclined to think LB stays right in a revamped BVC.

 

[CCHS93]

The NLL doesn't have 16 teams, too hot or too cold.

On top of that is they want 16 teams in a very tight geographical footprint and, preferably to some, all public. The schools just arent there.

The public schools in the Toledo MSA are:

D1: Whitmer, Start, Bowsher, Pburg
D2: NV, Springfield, AW, Clay, Waite
D3: SV, Maumee, Woodward, Rogers, BG
D4: Wauseon, Rossford, Scott, Port Clinton, Fostoria
D5: Eastwood, Otsego, Lake, Elmwood, Northwood, Genoa, Swanton

Some that have been considered, but arent technically in the Toledo MSA are:

D1: Findlay
D2: Fremont, Lima
D3:
D4: Bryan

I am sure I missed some. But, as you can see, the pickin's get real slim. Thats why adding in Central, SFS/NDA, SJJ/SUA makes overall sense. In most sports there is a lot of good competition. Many of the kids at these schools are friends with kids at the NLL schools.

As I have been saying, not enough schools to exclude some for this or that.

 

[CC Track Fan]

The City League schools would also get killed in football.

And in track.

 

[ayCC!]

On top of that is they want 16 teams in a very tight geographical footprint and, preferably to some, all public. The schools just arent there.

The public schools in the Toledo MSA are:

D1: Whitmer, Start, Bowsher, Pburg
D2: NV, Springfield, AW, Clay, Waite
D3: SV, Maumee, Woodward, Rogers, BG
D4: Wauseon, Rossford, Scott, Port Clinton, Fostoria
D5: Eastwood, Otsego, Lake, Elmwood, Northwood, Genoa, Swanton

Some that have been considered, but arent technically in the Toledo MSA are:

D1: Findlay
D2: Fremont, Lima
D3:
D4: Bryan

I am sure I missed some. But, as you can see, the pickin's get real slim. Thats why adding in Central, SFS/NDA, SJJ/SUA makes overall sense. In most sports there is a lot of good competition. Many of the kids at these schools are friends with kids at the NLL schools.

As I have been saying, not enough schools to exclude some for this or that.

Adding the privates would make it work, yes, but it defeats the entire purpose of why they are doing this. I don't think they'd stoop down to get screwed once more by the same teams. Would it be a competitive league overall? Probably.

Honestly, the divisions based on student population are not going to work for select sports, which is why I think they should try a relegation system for their competition, especially if (by some miracle) they end up putting the privs in.

 

[CCHS93]

Adding the privates would make it work, yes, but it defeats the entire purpose of why they are doing this. I don't think they'd stoop down to get screwed once more by the same teams. Would it be a competitive league overall? Probably.

Honestly, the divisions based on student population are not going to work for select sports, which is why I think they should try a relegation system for their competition, especially if (by some miracle) they end up putting the privs in.

Relegation works.

 

[Fayette79]

If Elmwood or Woodmore leave, the NBC makes a lot more sense for L-B.

Add BG, Defiance, Maumee, & Napoleon to the NWOAL and why do Liberty-Center & Archbold stay?

I doubt if Liberty Center would stay. Archbold would probably stay is my guess. Archbold is usually very competitive in all sports. On the boys side they would compete for league titles. On the girls side they may be middle of the pack at best according to a few people I know over in Archbold.

 

[ToledoGuy]

Relegation works.

I've always liked using a relegation/promotion type model if there are larger leagues. Would always ensure there isn't a team like Clay/Maumee getting their heads beaten in in their respective leagues every year.

 

[bmss17]

I've always liked using a relegation/promotion type model if there are larger leagues. Would always ensure there isn't a team like Clay/Maumee getting their heads beaten in in their respective leagues every year.

In theory it works, but that model was attempted in all sports in NEO with the 18 team NOC and it was a disaster. The league lasted longer than it probably should have. It didn’t matter as much in other sports, and perhaps it’s more possible with football now that the playoff is expanding, but for those teams that are smaller schools but successful, it’s a huge issue.

Going back to the NOC, you always had four schools consistently in the top division: Mentor, Solon, Strongsville, Brunswick. The last two spots were transition spots, and there became five schools that did everything in their power to avoid staying in the middle division: Hudson, Twinsburg, Medina, Stow, Mayfield. It ended up destroying the league because teams didn’t want to play up. Some were legit (Mayfield and Twinsburg had some very good teams, but were small schools and very class dependent), and some were not (Stow and Medina were two of the biggest schools in the league, they just couldn’t get their programs off the ground at that time).

This eventually led to the formation of the current two division Suburban League and the Greater Cleveland Conference.

One of the other huge issues with relegation is that it makes it much more difficult to schedule your non conference games. If I’m a Southview, Clay or a BG and I’m one of the schools that could potentially fluctuate, who I schedule non-league is heavily dependent on which division I’m in for that year.