What is the status of a 4th Division for CC/Track?

Supertramp

Active member
Is there any news?

It seemed like we were on the verge of a 4th Division this track season but the idea got shut down in the mess of organizing everything else for COVID.
 

Altor

Well-known member
My understanding is that the BoD didn't even take it up, citing their previous decision to not make any changes to divisions in any sport this year.
 
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Finishtiming

Active member
I feel this would have been the year to really push this. OATCCC could have very easily put it to ohsaa that "how about we don't push for the extra qualifiers this year due to multiple sites and next year you give us a 4th division and we won't need the extra qualifiers anymore."
 

Supertramp

Active member
I feel this would have been the year to really push this. OATCCC could have very easily put it to ohsaa that "how about we don't push for the extra qualifiers this year due to multiple sites and next year you give us a 4th division and we won't need the extra qualifiers anymore."
I agree. That's why I am surprised we have heard very little about this.

I just don't understand the hesitancy. OHSAA will make more money. Coaches want it.

What am I missing?
 

grange45

Active member
They tabled it this school year, but is still up in the air for next year, but only for track and field. Cross country will not move to 4 divisions and has never been brought up with the OATCCC.

It was being pushed in the summer and fall and looked like it was going to happen this year until Gabor got sick and everything stalled.
 

grange45

Active member
Just a quick update: the OHSAA heads at the last meeting with the OATCCC told the OATCCC to plan for 4 divisions this upcoming season. I don't know to be optimisitc or pessimistic. It seems too good to be true lol.
 
I was recently told that the OHSAA has tabled the idea of 4 divisions, meaning that it will not happen in 2022.
I was told that no decision has been made yet. According to my contact it is supposed to be addressed at the November/December meeting between OATCCC and OHSAA.
 

grange45

Active member
I was told that no decision has been made yet. According to my contact it is supposed to be addressed at the November/December meeting between OATCCC and OHSAA.
Same here. It's not tabled and the OHSAA and OATCCC are talking about it in either November and/or December. It would be nice if they made 4 divisions in honor of Dale Gabor. He really wanted it to happen before he retired but unfortunately the pandemic hit and now he has passed.
 

gatornation

Active member
Same here. It's not tabled and the OHSAA and OATCCC are talking about it.
Better get some new sources, no 4 divisions in 2022.
 

grange45

Active member
Same here. It's not tabled and the OHSAA and OATCCC are talking about it.
Better get some new sources, no 4 divisions in 2022.
Just got confirmation that you’re right and was decided very recently. Thanks gatornation. No need to be spiteful. I was just going by what I heard just a couple of weeks ago. Wasn’t calling you out.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
What I heard from a source with close ties to the OATCCC was that 4 divisions is likely to happen eventually, just not yet. The OHSAA has bigger fish to fry right now, primarily figuring out where the state track meet will be held this spring.
 

Supertramp

Active member
What I heard from a source with close ties to the OATCCC was that 4 divisions is likely to happen eventually, just not yet. The OHSAA has bigger fish to fry right now, primarily figuring out where the state track meet will be held this spring.
So basically the exact same thing we've been told the last 5 years.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
So basically the exact same thing we've been told the last 5 years.
Except for the fact that right now they have no idea where they're going to hold the state track meet this spring. In 4 of those last 5 years, we knew it was going to be held at OSU, and in 3 of those 4 years, it was held at OSU (wasn't held anywhere that 4th year).


Here's what I want to know though: Has anyone asked either the OATCCC or the OHSAA how they envision the 4 divisions to be configured? Are we talking same number of teams in each division, or are we talking possibly a smaller number of teams in DI to attempt to alleviate some of the enrollment disparity at the top (that disparity is always going to exist to some extent)? I haven't seen or heard any proposals related to that point.

All configurations have consequences whether they be intended or unintended. For example, they made 4 divisions, so my 140 boy school will compete against less teams in its division in the postseason as was the goal of creating another division, hooray! However, my school was one of the bigger ones in the old DIII. Under the new configuration, we're well over the cut for DIV, and 2/3 of the schools in the new DIII are schools that were in DII under the old configuration. That's an unintended consequence. Did things just get better or worse for my team?
 
I think you summed it up pretty well, 4 equal divisions would be tougher for the larger D3 schools like yours, with the smaller D2 schools now joining you in D3. Would D4 really be that competitive on a quality of depth? What would D4 7th and 8th place All Ohio performances likely be? I would rather see D1 divided in two.
 

grange45

Active member
I think you summed it up pretty well, 4 equal divisions would be tougher for the larger D3 schools like yours, with the smaller D2 schools now joining you in D3. Would D4 really be that competitive on a quality of depth? What would D4 7th and 8th place All Ohio performances likely be? I would rather see D1 divided in two.
Agree. But the last time I heard the OHSAA is looking at splitting up the schools equally (25% of schools in each division) if they do 4 divisions. Of course that can change because there is new administration at the top.
 

gatornation

Active member
Unfortunately that was the discussion, that if they went to 4 divisions it would be divided equally(25% each), which stated above does not do anything but get more involvement in the State meet.
 

Finishtiming

Active member
What if rather than 4 divisions you could get more qualifiers. Lets say 24 by taking top 5 at regionals and then next 4 times/marks. This would allow 3 heats with an empty lane at jesse for ties and would also allow you to go to an 8 lane facility without adding anything. Field flights would still be 2 flights of 12 rather than 9 and you could still run distance events as one heat.
 
What if rather than 4 divisions you could get more qualifiers. Lets say 24 by taking top 5 at regionals and then next 4 times/marks. This would allow 3 heats with an empty lane at jesse for ties and would also allow you to go to an 8 lane facility without adding anything. Field flights would still be 2 flights of 12 rather than 9 and you could still run distance events as one heat.
I like this idea. Let's do it.

I also think this idea misses on some of the original intent of four divisions - putting teams of similar sizes together to compete. 24 to state would be AWESOME. But in a lot of events, that just means St. X or Mason or Beavercreek or Centerville gets a second kid through. Doesn't change the competitive opportunities for a school of 375 boys (like a Dayton Carroll or a Tippecanoe) that has to compete against a school of 1200 boys. Four divisions doesn't totally fix that, either, put it puts more apples competing with apples instead of apples and oranges.
 

CC Track Fan

Well-known member
What if rather than 4 divisions you could get more qualifiers. Lets say 24 by taking top 5 at regionals and then next 4 times/marks. This would allow 3 heats with an empty lane at jesse for ties and would also allow you to go to an 8 lane facility without adding anything. Field flights would still be 2 flights of 12 rather than 9 and you could still run distance events as one heat.
I don't like the idea of 24 runner in the 1600. Increases the chance of one of the top guys getting tripped and going down. Think of the 4x800 at state last year. D1 Boys would be the worst since that gap form 1-24 would be the smallest most years.
 

Altor

Well-known member
I don't like the idea of 24 runner in the 1600. Increases the chance of one of the top guys getting tripped and going down. Think of the 4x800 at state last year. D1 Boys would be the worst since that gap form 1-24 would be the smallest most years.
I don't like running an 800 in mid-April with 24 competitors. I can't imagine trying to do it at a state championship. 1600 isn't far behind at that level either. I was thinking the 800 would certainly need a semi-final. I hadn't even considered the 4x800. Yuck.
 

ENA2

Active member
If they ever go with 4 divisions with 25% size-wise in each division… I would soon propose that the top 10% would be D1 (about 80 schools); the 30% in each of the other divisions (240 school in each). They should probably first recognize teams with less than 9 athletes at the district meet to count as a team so that Ohio has 800 schools in that group. Also educate programs so that they know what number you have to have to count as a “team”.
 

CC Track Fan

Well-known member
I don't like running an 800 in mid-April with 24 competitors. I can't imagine trying to do it at a state championship. 1600 isn't far behind at that level either. I was thinking the 800 would certainly need a semi-final. I hadn't even considered the 4x800. Yuck.
I just assumed if it was 24 the 800 would have to have semi-finals. But I had not really thought much about 4x800 but that 1st exchange would only be described as dangerous as there would be 48 runners in 20 meter section of the track. With some sprinting in at full speed, others looking backwards accelerating and others coming to a complete stop or even falling down from just giving maximum effort. As I type this the 4x800 would also have to have prelims. OSHAA might like that as they can get those parents to buy an extra ticket.
 

Mr. Slippery

Well-known member
I just assumed if it was 24 the 800 would have to have semi-finals. But I had not really thought much about 4x800 but that 1st exchange would only be described as dangerous as there would be 48 runners in 20 meter section of the track. With some sprinting in at full speed, others looking backwards accelerating and others coming to a complete stop or even falling down from just giving maximum effort. As I type this the 4x800 would also have to have prelims. OSHAA might like that as they can get those parents to buy an extra ticket.
If not prelims, then they'd have to run a final in 2 heats. In which case, you have to decide if the heats are created by time or by place (i.e. top 3 in each regional make the hot section. Those in the slow section are looking to post a time that holds up for a placing). The one obvious benefit I could see in a slow-fast final set-up is it encourages an honest pace from the fast heat. If the fast heat entrants play too much cat and mouse, then the slow heat winner might steal a high placing or even the outright victory. Regardless, if you have to add a heat or a round to an event, then you are adding time to the meet as a whole which we are constantly told is something that the OHSAA does not want.

If you had 3 divisions and suddenly had to run prelims and then finals on the 4x800s, how much time are you potentially adding to the meet? At minimum, you're talking another 12:00 for an additional girls 4x8 and 8:00 for a boys 4x8. Multiply that by 3 divisions. That's a minimum of 1 hour of running added to Saturday since the 4x8 is currently run on Fri. In reality, it's a little more than that when you factor in the time it takes to walk everyone up from the bullpen and get them lined up in their lanes, etc. Is that enough added time to be a non-starter in the eyes of those who have the final say?
 

ENA2

Active member
Exactly Mr. Slipperry. One of the primary reasons why the “at large” qualifiers finally was allowed was because it did not add any time to the schedule, since JO has 9.lanes…
 

badger1

Member
If they ever go with 4 divisions with 25% size-wise in each division… I would soon propose that the top 10% would be D1 (about 80 schools); the 30% in each of the other divisions (240 school in each). They should probably first recognize teams with less than 9 athletes at the district meet to count as a team so that Ohio has 800 schools in that group. Also educate programs so that they know what number you have to have to count as a “team”.
Since team state championship trophies have been won by 1 outstanding athlete scoring in multiple events, that magical number of athletes to count as a team should be 1.
 
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