Two Officials for JV Game

[lightspeed84]

Likely due to injury, personal emergency, or illness at the last minute. Each pro club has a list of local officials who are ex-pro or can work the game who are able to cover. But sometimes the time notification (especially in August/September) is too late to get anyone, and MiLB permits two at the AAA level. But in any case, things do happen. I used to be on the list for the Dayton Dragons and literally would get calls at 5:45 asking me if I could come to a 7:05 start.

First, no AD is (should be) using arbiter. OHSAA was direct about game contracts being in arbiter being null and void. And they will be coming after anyone who does because it violates the contract they have with DragonFly.

What you are suggesting is not possible from a technical or role-based perspective in DragonFly. And if it was back-ended, the OHSAA would see it and you would be getting a nasty call.

In the event that somehow this all does happen, and you don’t get paid accordingly, that’s on the Officials and the assigner for not negotiating fairly. Most pay rates are agreed upon by a league so if they’re not paying it at the league level, then you’re definitely getting screwed. As an assignor I will not contract with any school or league which doesnt pay officials full fee for scrimmages. If they dont, then they are on their own and are still subject to the provisions of the state. It is possible some coach may officiate a scrimmage but then no intelligent AD would put someone on a game - even if to pay them. That is a huge liability and pay issue.

I was referring to arbiter in the past tense as its not used anymore for ohsaa, you are correct. And I accepted a baseball scrimmage which I was listed as the only umpire, which the dollar amount was not included, until about 2 hours before the game. When I re examined and seen the amount, I immediately called the AD and argued with him and told him I was not coming unless it was fixed to league agreement. I called my league assigner who warned me that he pulls stuff like that all the time. True story no reason to lie

 

[Stow78alum]

" I used to be on the list for the Dayton Dragons and literally would get calls at 5:45 asking me if I could come to a 7:05 start."

Sorry to be nosey, but what was the pay like?

 

[smurfyeah19]

I’m going to give my take on the officiating in Ohio high school. This is just my opinion and I am not out to offend/ trigger anyone in doing so. This is what I see as a CEO / owner of a business. There are defiantly problems with the officiating situation, and quite honestly it all falls on the OHSAA. As with any governing body they need to own this problem and have leaders within the organization resolve it. After all, running any such entity is constantly solving problems. When I first heard the PSA announcement before the games requesting that the attendees be kind to the officials, I was embarrassed for the state. Placing public blame on patrons instead of solving the problem is inexcusable. From the outside looking in, the first thing that stands out is the lack of compensation for the officials. The obvious love of the game is being taken advantage of…period. In order to receive great service, one must compensate the provider in order for them to care about quality. In my opinion, it is a travesty if these said officials don’t each make at least $200 per game, as a matter of fact I think it is an insult. I am not going to get into the details of how this can be paid for, but good leaders will find a way. An example; if attendees complain so much about the officials, they should be more than happy to pay an additional few dollars on the ticket price to help solve the problem. The second thing that stands out to me is the need to amplify the prestige of the officials. They should be recognized for the countless hours of training, dedication and love they put into this sport. I think that every official that has earned, and is selected to work a state championship game should be awarded a championship ring or some other valued token of their performance. Again, I give an example as to the direction. Ohio high schools are fortunate in the fact we have so many great people that officiate these games, but we are at a time when the current model is proving not to be sustainable and a change needs to be made.

Well said but the problem is leagues themselves here. For instance the OHSAA came in during the preseason and said 6 man crews must receive the same amount per official as 5 man crews. So what did leagues do? They went to lawyers and pushed back. Now to your point what could happen is the state takes control of the whole thing, assigning happens at the district level and rates are set by the OHSAA themselves. I think this would actually solve a lot of problems, but good luck cutting the conferences out of this process.

I actually think the OHSAA is doing all they can here, it's leagues being stubborn and complaining woe is me.

 

[hammer89]

The OHSAA lawyers have said that in their opinion, if OHSAA set the pay rates for officials, officials would be employees of the OHSAA under Ohio law (as opposed to the independent contractors they are now).

Whether that’s true or not, I can see why the OHSAA would want to avoid even the smallest chance of that happening.

 

[Logndog]

Well said but the problem is leagues themselves here. For instance the OHSAA came in during the preseason and said 6 man crews must receive the same amount per official as 5 man crews. So what did leagues do? They went to lawyers and pushed back. Now to your point what could happen is the state takes control of the whole thing, assigning happens at the district level and rates are set by the OHSAA themselves. I think this would actually solve a lot of problems, but good luck cutting the conferences out of this process.

I actually think the OHSAA is doing all they can here, it's leagues being stubborn and complaining woe is me.

I would bet that if all the officials went on strike it would change that hard nose posture real quick. If you think patrons are mad, just let them start canceling games. The parents alone would bring about change. Apparently the leagues think they have all of the power and in reality that is not the case. If there was a reality of a cancellation of the season, I would have to believe that would change things. They need officials, but the officials do not need them. The tragedy here is all of this could be avoided if good leadership would step up and solve the problem.

 

[umpire16]

The OHSAA lawyers have said that in their opinion, if OHSAA set the pay rates for officials, officials would be employees of the OHSAA under Ohio law (as opposed to the independent contractors they are now).

Whether that’s true or not, I can see why the OHSAA would want to avoid even the smallest chance of that happening.

If this is true then they wouldnt be able to set regional and state rates, Ben. This varies directly with what has been told in assigner and secretary meetings as recent as August.

Ohio IC law is constantly evolving, at least. They can revisit it since there are other instances where non-profit and public organizations set pay conditions for ICs. An established minimum is very different than a required pay rate. I set pay rates in my district for contractors for years and that didnt make me the employer. They were free to negotiate more.

 

[umpire16]

Well said but the problem is leagues themselves here. For instance the OHSAA came in during the preseason and said 6 man crews must receive the same amount per official as 5 man crews. So what did leagues do? They went to lawyers and pushed back. Now to your point what could happen is the state takes control of the whole thing, assigning happens at the district level and rates are set by the OHSAA themselves. I think this would actually solve a lot of problems, but good luck cutting the conferences out of this process.

I actually think the OHSAA is doing all they can here, it's leagues being stubborn and complaining woe is me.

All of our leagues pay the same for 6 or 5. I dont know what they would want to complaint a lawyer about. Stubborness has an eternal cost sadly.

 

[umpire16]

I was referring to arbiter in the past tense as its not used anymore for ohsaa, you are correct. And I accepted a baseball scrimmage which I was listed as the only umpire, which the dollar amount was not included, until about 2 hours before the game. When I re examined and seen the amount, I immediately called the AD and argued with him and told him I was not coming unless it was fixed to league agreement. I called my league assigner who warned me that he pulls stuff like that all the time. True story no reason to lie

Understandable, and no worries. That is very different than the original scenario IMO. An AD Violating the league agreement is certainly something the league needs to be aware of, and I agree that not working is the best bet. I certainly wouldnt.

 

[umpire16]

" I used to be on the list for the Dayton Dragons and literally would get calls at 5:45 asking me if I could come to a 7:05 start."

Sorry to be nosey, but what was the pay like?

This is not nosey at all, a legit question.

I was always told it was basically dictated by the minor league union contract at the time.

At the time I did it which was 2004 to 2015, we got 80-100 per game and we were also given secure, private parking, an escort to the changing room, a couple of tickets to the game if anyone wanted to come watch, and a good post game meal. From what many of the wonderful young men I worked with told me the dragons were pretty much at the top of the single A system in terms of how they treated you. I heard a lot of good stories about how other places you might be lucky to get a cold hotdog after the game and had to get changed in a closet.

If there was a minor-league supervisor there, if evaluating as well, as that was usually preplanned, they would also give you a thorough evaluation, which helps you no matter what level you primarily work.

I texted a buddy that works there and he said today it’s pretty much the same but they pay more. He wasn’t aware of the current rate, but it was still tied to the contract.

There’s also the intangible fact that you get to work a game at that level on that field. I worked with a couple officials who made it to the big leagues, and of course many players who came through who made it to the big show.

 

[hammer89]

If this is true then they wouldnt be able to set regional and state rates, Ben. This varies directly with what has been told in assigner and secretary meetings as recent as August.

Ohio IC law is constantly evolving, at least. They can revisit it since there are other instances where non-profit and public organizations set pay conditions for ICs. An established minimum is very different than a required pay rate. I set pay rates in my district for contractors for years and that didnt make me the employer. They were free to negotiate more.

They set the regional and state rates because they control those games directly. Setting a rate for a third party is completely different.

 

[umpire16]

They set the regional and state rates because they control those games directly. Setting a rate for a third party is completely different.

I’d be very curious to read the case law here. There are thousands of ICs in Ohio who get pay rates set by orgs they do work for who have various statuses. I could opine further but I’ll wait until the tax attorney/official I asked about this responds.

His initial thoughts outside of tax law or codification:
-refusal to want to address this by OHSAA/stubborn mentality/contradictory outcomes for various reasons
-parity in pay alterations (someone is getting a big raise/others take a possible cut if a minimum is set)
-1099 needs for every official as burdensome.

I refuse to give up this hill because the evidence seems more antithetical to legal reasons outside of opinions than anything.

 

[Logndog]

I’d be very curious to read the case law here. There are thousands of ICs in Ohio who get pay rates set by orgs they do work for who have various statuses. I could opine further but I’ll wait until the tax attorney/official I asked about this responds.

His initial thoughts outside of tax law or codification:
-refusal to want to address this by OHSAA/stubborn mentality/contradictory outcomes for various reasons
-parity in pay alterations (someone is getting a big raise/others take a possible cut if a minimum is set)
-1099 needs for every official as burdensome.

I refuse to give up this hill because the evidence seems more antithetical to legal reasons outside of opinions than anything.

Anything legal can be challenged, ergo the OHSAA attorneys making that statement could be relying on the odds that it will not end up in court. Again the officials need to band together, request talks with the OHSAA and the league representatives making it clear that a change needs to be made and that you are unified in the resolve. They cannot make you officiate. The leverage is yours, and needs to be made known as you request a meeting to find a solution that will benefit them in the long run by negotiating now. It is of my opinion that the afore mentioned unified officials should be setting the pay scale. It should also be know that you are providing a skill set which is due higher rates of compensation.

 

[AllSports12]

Placing public blame on patrons instead of solving the problem is inexcusable.

The behavior of the "patrons" is the number one reason why veteran officials have left and 80% of newer officials leave within 2 years. Signs on the walls, announcements before the game, silly commercials urging good behavior are all a waste of time. They've been going on for years and the behavior keeps getting worse.

In my opinion, it is a travesty if these said officials don’t each make at least $200 per game,

I am not going to get into the details of how this can be paid for, but good leaders will find a way. An example; if attendees complain so much about the officials, they should be more than happy to pay an additional few dollars on the ticket price to help solve the problem.

Have you seen the complaining about ticket prices? ..... and $200 a game isn't going to cost "patrons" a "few dollars".

The second thing that stands out to me is the need to amplify the prestige of the officials. They should be recognized for the countless hours of training, dedication and love they put into this sport. I think that every official that has earned, and is selected to work a state championship game should be awarded a championship ring or some other valued token of their performance. Again, I give an example as to the direction. Ohio high schools are fortunate in the fact we have so many great people that officiate these games, but we are at a time when the current model is proving not to be sustainable and a change needs to be made.

Officials are viewed as necessary evils. Always have, always will.

 

[AllSports12]

The OHSAA lawyers have said that in their opinion, if OHSAA set the pay rates for officials, officials would be employees of the OHSAA under Ohio law (as opposed to the independent contractors they are now).

Whether that’s true or not, I can see why the OHSAA would want to avoid even the smallest chance of that happening.

That's the same thing NASO has been saying for 40 years.

 

[CoachHoversten]

The behavior of the "patrons" is the number one reason why veteran officials have left and 80% of newer officials leave within 2 years

^ and herein lies the problem that money won’t fix.

Pay more is great, and it might entice a few more people to stay in it, but only the ones who are doing it just for the $ , which are not the officials you want anyways on the games.

And with more pay, comes more expectations so the problem AS12 identified will only amplify.

Easy example, club sports vs scholastic sports. Why do officials take way more abuse in club sports? Bc the parents are doling out the money so any perceived slight to their kid/team is magnified.

If Fans know an official is making $200 instead of $100, they’d eat their lunch over a perceived bad call. Already on these boards I read about how officials should lose weight and study rules more and be better. And that’s for an $80-90 game they are doing on a Friday night instead of being with their family

 

[cincifbfan]

^ and herein lies the problem that money won’t fix.

Pay more is great, and it might entice a few more people to stay in it, but only the ones who are doing it just for the $ , which are not the officials you want anyways on the games.

And with more pay, comes more expectations so the problem AS12 identified will only amplify.

Easy example, club sports vs scholastic sports. Why do officials take way more abuse in club sports? Bc the parents are doling out the money so any perceived slight to their kid/team is magnified.

If Fans know an official is making $200 instead of $100, they’d eat their lunch over a perceived bad call. Already on these boards I read about how officials should lose weight and study rules more and be better. And that’s for an $80-90 game they are doing on a Friday night instead of being with their family

Most officials should lose weight, to argue otherwise is crazy. Too many officials do the waddle walk and simply can't run. That's a huge problem. There should be some accountability over blowing calls. Too many calls are blown and there's no recourse.

With that being said, schools MUST hold patrons accountable for abusive behaviors. You cannot let them continue the way it's going now. A PA announcement doesn't cut it. And schools should ensure they have escorts to their vehicles after the game. It's unreal that something so simple doesn't happen.

 

[bb9]

Most officials should lose weight, to argue otherwise is crazy. Too many officials do the waddle walk and simply can't run. That's a huge problem. There should be some accountability over blowing calls. Too many calls are blown and there's no recourse.

With that being said, schools MUST hold patrons accountable for abusive behaviors. You cannot let them continue the way it's going now. A PA announcement doesn't cut it.

Probably should suspend overweight officials who make bad calls and replace them with the better more fit officials who are sitting at home waiting for games.

 

[AllSports12]

Most officials should lose weight, to argue otherwise is crazy.

Don't lay that solely on officials. Facts will tell us that most Americans should lose weight.

There should be some accountability over blowing calls. Too many calls are blown and there's no recourse.

There aren't enough men and women to fire officials. As far as recourse, not getting assignments deep in the tournament is what happens when an official consistently exhibits substandard officiating.

 

[hammer89]

I’d be very curious to read the case law here. There are thousands of ICs in Ohio who get pay rates set by orgs they do work for who have various statuses. I could opine further but I’ll wait until the tax attorney/official I asked about this responds.

His initial thoughts outside of tax law or codification:
-refusal to want to address this by OHSAA/stubborn mentality/contradictory outcomes for various reasons
-parity in pay alterations (someone is getting a big raise/others take a possible cut if a minimum is set)
-1099 needs for every official as burdensome.

I refuse to give up this hill because the evidence seems more antithetical to legal reasons outside of opinions than anything.

I know nothing about ICs in other realms, but my recollection of the arguments for why it would make officials OHSAA employees (again, just saying what the lawyers arguments were, I have no idea if what they’re saying is correct) is that if OHSAA sets the pay rate, it tips the scales to “employee” instead of “IC” because they also grant the license to officiate, set the uniform for the job, and set the workplace rules. I found this graphic from the IRS helpful in talking about the differences between employees and ICs.

 

[Logndog]

Most officials should lose weight, to argue otherwise is crazy. Too many officials do the waddle walk and simply can't run. That's a huge problem. There should be some accountability over blowing calls. Too many calls are blown and there's no recourse.

With that being said, schools MUST hold patrons accountable for abusive behaviors. You cannot let them continue the way it's going now. A PA announcement doesn't cut it. And schools should ensure they have escorts to their vehicles after the game. It's unreal that something so simple doesn't happen.

What happens in the stands will ALWAYS happen, and it come with the territory of officiating. Who would go into it not knowing that was a recourse for bad performance? To have accountability there has to be an abundance of officials to replace the ones not doing their job, so how do you propose to increase the amount of people that want to be officials? That “bad behavior” is a direct result of bad calls, and the fan bases that are more familiar with the rules will object the most. Bottom line is we need to attract more people that want to do this job, and want to do a good job. This is no different than a business attracting employees.

 

[WSAImpact]

High school varsity usually has three.

But when did they start? When I was in school there were just two.

 

[AllSports12]

But when did they start? When I was in school there were just two.

The first year that the OHSAA utilized 3 officials in the tournament was 1996. There were pockets of the state that used 3 for a couple of years prior to that.

As a side note, the first time 3 officials were used in the NCAA Tournament was 1979. (Bird v Magic)
The NBA experimented with 3 officials during the 1978-79 season, then went back to 2 officials the next year until permanently using 3 officials beginning with the 1988-89 season.

 

[cincifbfan]

What happens in the stands will ALWAYS happen, and it come with the territory of officiating.

I agree it comes with the territory, and I will add that too many officials are too thin-skinned.... I mean most schools have a track between the stands and the field. Things being said to you from that far away can't get under your skin that easily. The issue I have is after the game when too many fans get to the officials.

Who would go into it not knowing that was a recourse for bad performance? To have accountability there has to be an abundance of officials to replace the ones not doing their job, so how do you propose to increase the amount of people that want to be officials?

I think there are quite a few people who get into it because they know there is no recourse for poor performance and it's a power thing. I've already stated that pay is the number 1 way to increase people wanting to be officials. Maybe we could include some better marketing, but nothing is better than the almighty dollar.

That “bad behavior” is a direct result of bad calls, and the fan bases that are more familiar with the rules will object the most.

I disagree. Most bad behavior is from fans that don't know the rules. The bad behavior also tends to come from fans who are intoxicated. Schools need to stop letting drunks into games and get rid of unruly fans right away. That even includes their own student sections. There's no reason to be abusive to officials and to allow the kind of conduct I see regularly at high school games.

Bottom line is we need to attract more people that want to do this job, and want to do a good job. This is no different than a business attracting employees

I completely agree. And the businesses that have no problem attracting top talent pay top wages. Businesses that have crazy turnover and can't figure out why their employees are so unhappy are the ones that pay garbage. It isn't rocket science. As I said, you can get a part time job right now making 17+ an hour pretty easily, and not have to deal with all the bullcrap that goes along with officiating. So, most don't.

 

[Combo]

I was at a 7th grade game a couple weeks ago that made me question why anyone would ever want to be an official. The crowd was HORRIBLE over a game that means nothing, no one ever cares what your Jr. High School record is. It was truly sad.

 

[smurfyeah19]

Pay more is great, and it might entice a few more people to stay in it, but only the ones who are doing it just for the $ , which are not the officials you want anyways on the games.

They need a draw though. No one is doing this for the money, it's a cool thing to do in the Fall in all honesty and challenging both athletically and mentally. Judgements are what were "plays made" when we were in high school and mechanics are your "play calls" the coach used to give. But when you have schools paying $80 for a JH doubleheader with three officials that just simply isn't worth it & in all honesty it's taking advantage of someone's time.

My opinion is a lot of other former players would think it'd be cool to do as well, but until we can see minimum rates set in each district how can you entice people into this?

Most officials should lose weight, to argue otherwise is crazy. Too many officials do the waddle walk and simply can't run. That's a huge problem. There should be some accountability over blowing calls. Too many calls are blown and there's no recourse.

With that being said, schools MUST hold patrons accountable for abusive behaviors. You cannot let them continue the way it's going now. A PA announcement doesn't cut it. And schools should ensure they have escorts to their vehicles after the game. It's unreal that something so simple doesn't happen.

This isn't actually a bad post at all. As AllSports has mentioned, we're trying to fill as many spots as possible. There are way too many guys that simply cannot even follow their R&R's because they no longer have the athleticism. Thing is though I'd rather have an old, out of shape guy with good judgement over a 1st year who hardly knows the book or mechanics. Nothing like seeing a Year 1 LJ trying to flag an intentional grounding

To your second point, yeah it's getting a bit ridiculous but mostly at the JH/JV level. You'd think there's playoff points at stake the way some of these parents lose their minds. And with dozens, not hundreds like on Friday nights folks seem to go even further in that quieter setting

 

[Forepar]

What happens in the stands will ALWAYS happen, and it come with the territory of officiating. Who would go into it not knowing that was a recourse for bad performance? To have accountability there has to be an abundance of officials to replace the ones not doing their job, so how do you propose to increase the amount of people that want to be officials? That “bad behavior” is a direct result of bad calls, and the fan bases that are more familiar with the rules will object the most. Bottom line is we need to attract more people that want to do this job, and want to do a good job. This is no different than a business attracting employees.

Disagree with the bolded. Bad behavior is occurring regardless of whether calls are "objectively" good or bad. If the call goes against the fan's team, then by the fan's definition, it was a bad call.
Doing a good job likely earns the respect of a large majority of coaches, the other officials and maybe even some players. It does nothing to affect people in the stands. Most do not understand that different rules apply to NFL, NCAA and Ohio high school football - and same is true for basketball.

A little yelling is one thing - but at most games the yelling is more akin to threats against the ref's personal safety. You could raise the fee to $1,000 per game - that might get a slightly improved referee base, but it would also attract those in it for the money. And it would not reduce the heat coming from the stands, and in fact would probably increase it.
I use to think that a little negativity at the ref by reasonable people, with no threats, just whining, was not a big thing. That thought has changed (and no, I do not officiate any longer, has been many years since I officiated basketball). The games I attend in person these days, I watch otherwise-respected business people who are community leaders get very loud and direct about officiating quality, loud enough for officials to hear. That type of criticism can generally be ignored by a seasoned official, but it gets to the rookie official (and we have/need more and more rookies), and worse/more importantly that behavior seems to embolden the yayhoos in the crowd to think that if community leader A can yell at an official, then yayhoo B can yell any obscenity and threat all they want. Some even look at it as entertaining the crowd. I know some of you may not perceive that at your home team's games - but imo it is at almost epidemic level. SM has made it acceptable to be a jerk and hide behind a keyboard - and it spills over into everyday life.

I know, then what's the answer? I don't think there is an answer, short of escorting 25 people out the gate every game. The bad behavior has become that pervasive, at every level at almost every game, and no matter the sport.

 

[JackEd]

Paying more a game might entice people to get into officiating that actually end wanting to be very good at officiating, flip side is you’ll get the people who do not care whatsoever and will just go through the motions to make some side money. Example would be AAU basketball and local baseball tournaments. People calling games making $60-$80 a game for 4-5 games a day. They don’t care if they blow a call or even hustle to get into position to be able to make the right call.

In my experience the sportsmanship by players towards officials has declined dramatically over the past 20 years and the coaches that hold their players accountable before and after a penalty are few and far between. That’s a bigger part than the fans in my opinion.

 

[Logndog]

Disagree with the bolded. Bad behavior is occurring regardless of whether calls are "objectively" good or bad. If the call goes against the fan's team, then by the fan's definition, it was a bad call.
Doing a good job likely earns the respect of a large majority of coaches, the other officials and maybe even some players. It does nothing to affect people in the stands. Most do not understand that different rules apply to NFL, NCAA and Ohio high school football - and same is true for basketball.

A little yelling is one thing - but at most games the yelling is more akin to threats against the ref's personal safety. You could raise the fee to $1,000 per game - that might get a slightly improved referee base, but it would also attract those in it for the money. And it would not reduce the heat coming from the stands, and in fact would probably increase it.
I use to think that a little negativity at the ref by reasonable people, with no threats, just whining, was not a big thing. That thought has changed (and no, I do not officiate any longer, has been many years since I officiated basketball). The games I attend in person these days, I watch otherwise-respected business people who are community leaders get very loud and direct about officiating quality, loud enough for officials to hear. That type of criticism can generally be ignored by a seasoned official, but it gets to the rookie official (and we have/need more and more rookies), and worse/more importantly that behavior seems to embolden the yayhoos in the crowd to think that if community leader A can yell at an official, then yayhoo B can yell any obscenity and threat all they want. Some even look at it as entertaining the crowd. I know some of you may not perceive that at your home team's games - but imo it is at almost epidemic level. SM has made it acceptable to be a jerk and hide behind a keyboard - and it spills over into everyday life.

I know, then what's the answer? I don't think there is an answer, short of escorting 25 people out the gate every game. The bad behavior has become that pervasive, at every level at almost every game, and no matter the sport.

Maybe I’m privileged, but I have never heard anyone physically threaten an official at a game. That’s what’s wrong with the country, everyone gets offended by someone else's words…. Maybe I’m from a different time, but you can call me what you want and I’ll laugh at you. This comes along with the every kid gets a trophy mentality. I just attended the game at ND and there were plenty of yelling at the refs on both sides. Those officials never missed a beat? If someone is that affected by the crowd, maybe they should find something else to do. I think the crowds were way worse in the 70’s and 80’s imo.

 

[hammer89]

Maybe I’m privileged, but I have never heard anyone physically threaten an official at a game. That’s what’s wrong with the country, everyone gets offended by someone else's words…. Maybe I’m from a different time, but you can call me what you want and I’ll laugh at you. This comes along with the every kid gets a trophy mentality. I just attended the game at ND and there were plenty of yelling at the refs on both sides. Those officials never missed a beat? If someone is that affected by the crowd, maybe they should find something else to do. I think the crowds were way worse in the 70’s and 80’s imo.

The people that can’t take it HAVE found something else to do, and now there’s a shortage , and they’re being told they need to be tougher. So which is it? Walk away if you don’t like it, or shut up and take it?

 

[Logndog]

The people that can’t take it HAVE found something else to do, and now there’s a shortage , and they’re being told they need to be tougher. So which is it? Walk away if you don’t like it, or shut up and take it?

That’s up to the individual and their fortitude?