Two Officials for JV Game

cincifbfan said:
And that's just a plain dumb argument. Forget about facemasks, pass interference, illegal shifts, illegal formations, ineligible man downfield, blind side blocks, and other very common penalties at that age.
Click to expand...
No, no. I'm saying those are usually the only fouls you call. Sure other things like that can happen, but by and large you do not have the intensity of play or size of playbook that causes all of those fouls on a Friday. Need to be lenient as well with that age group, do everything possible for instance before the play to get 7 on the LOS and help them out.

cincifbfan said:
If it was, people would be flocking to do it. It's not worth the hassle that comes with being an official.

Money talks.
Click to expand...
A lot of the problem is just timing. 10 AM on Saturday? 4-5 PM on a Thursday? Those aren't ideal times for most people's schedules. That's really what it's coming down to, the spread offense is pushing the older officials out sooner and significant sub varsity time is needed before you're ready for a Friday night. Newer officials should realistically be doing at least a dozen JH/JV contests to prepare themselves adequately for the speed and everything that comes with a varsity game. That's a big problem right now, I've seen first years on the field on their mechanics are just not there. It leads to some big mess-ups.
 
smurfyeah19 said:
No, no. I'm saying those are usually the only fouls you call. Sure other things like that can happen, but by and large you do not have the intensity of play or size of playbook that causes all of those fouls on a Friday. Need to be lenient as well with that age group, do everything possible for instance before the play to get 7 on the LOS and help them out.


A lot of the problem is just timing. 10 AM on Saturday? 4-5 PM on a Thursday? Those aren't ideal times for most people's schedules. That's really what it's coming down to, the spread offense is pushing the older officials out sooner and significant sub varsity time is needed before you're ready for a Friday night. Newer officials should realistically be doing at least a dozen JH/JV contests to prepare themselves adequately for the speed and everything that comes with a varsity game. That's a big problem right now, I've seen first years on the field on their mechanics are just not there. It leads to some big mess-ups.
Click to expand...
I agree with the scheduling aspect. And you can add in Jr. High and youth games. There's a lot of people that don't want to give up the vast majority of their weekends and a few weeknights after work.

But to my point, I bet if the pay was even higher, they'd be willing to.
 
cincifbfan said:
I agree with the scheduling aspect. And you can add in Jr. High and youth games. There's a lot of people that don't want to give up the vast majority of their weekends and a few weeknights after work.

But to my point, I bet if the pay was even higher, they'd be willing to.
Click to expand...
Pay more. I pay 2x what I used to to get into a game - increase official pay will solve a lot. You should get better officials, which should lead to less griping.
 
cincifbfan said:
I agree with the scheduling aspect. And you can add in Jr. High and youth games. There's a lot of people that don't want to give up the vast majority of their weekends and a few weeknights after work.

But to my point, I bet if the pay was even higher, they'd be willing to.
Click to expand...
I guess this changes the thread. For a 7th/8th grade doubleheader how much would it take for you to be interested? $150? $175? $200?
 
Billenice said:
Pay more. I pay 2x what I used to to get into a game - increase official pay will solve a lot. You should get better officials, which should lead to less griping.
Click to expand...
I do agree that the quality of officiating is way down compared to what it used to be. However, most fans don't know the rules, and complain over correct calls.
 
smurfyeah19 said:
I guess this changes the thread. For a 7th/8th grade doubleheader how much would it take for you to be interested? $150? $175? $200?
Click to expand...
For me personally, that won't do it. I enjoy picking and choosing which games I watch. But if you think money doesn't have anything to do with it when teens are making 17-20 bucks an hour at their jobs where people don't yell and scream at them you are crazy.
 
smurfyeah19 said:
I think it's up to the officials to say no. Especially for JV, I cannot even imagine trying to spot the ball in a game like that.
Click to expand...
With how lax the chain crews are at most games I wouldn't put much weight on where the ball gets spotted either. Too many times if the play ends near a hashmark the ball gets spotted exactly at the hashmark when it's a first down. Makes things easier.

The stupidest thing I have ever seen though was after a touchback, on the first set of downs, they actually measured to see if the runner got to the 30 yard line.
 
Sykotyk said:
With how lax the chain crews are at most games I wouldn't put much weight on where the ball gets spotted either. Too many times if the play ends near a hashmark the ball gets spotted exactly at the hashmark when it's a first down. Makes things easier.

The stupidest thing I have ever seen though was after a touchback, on the first set of downs, they actually measured to see if the runner got to the 30 yard line.
Click to expand...
None of that's got anything to do with the chain crew.
 
chs1971 said:
None of that's got anything to do with the chain crew.
Click to expand...
Because of the pomp and circumstance of bringing chains in to measure when the chains are rarely pulled tight when the clip is attached to the link to mark the 5 yard line. There's no way you're getting precise determination of where the ball is spotted. And that's IF the officials are spotting the ball accurately to begin with. Which most don't. So many love to move it to mark a hashmark. Especially when it's moving the markers downfield so they know the next first down is at a line and not the middle of a yard.
 
lightspeed84 said:
Some AD's will lie telling officials there are 3 (only schedule 2), then not pay the additional money for not having a third. They will try to do this is baseball and softball as well. I've heard similar stories in Volleyball but do not officiate that sport. Officials talk to one another and we talk at association meetings.
Click to expand...
Most of the games in Ohio are assigned thru conference assigners, not AD's.
 
Sykotyk said:
Because of the pomp and circumstance of bringing chains in to measure when the chains are rarely pulled tight when the clip is attached to the link to mark the 5 yard line. There's no way you're getting precise determination of where the ball is spotted. And that's IF the officials are spotting the ball accurately to begin with. Which most don't. So many love to move it to mark a hashmark. Especially when it's moving the markers downfield so they know the next first down is at a line and not the middle of a yard.
Click to expand...
I had this exact conversation with the officials at a youth game this weekend. Luckily the white hat said you know, you're right, apologized and didn't do it anymore.
 
lightspeed84 said:
I've known guys who have done this, if I refuse to officiate b/c there is only two, do they still have to pay me?
Click to expand...
Straight from your game contact.....

If a game is not played due to weather or unforseen emergenicies and you were there ready to officiate according to the terms you agreed to, then you are to be paid 1/2 the game fee.
 
lightspeed84 said:
Some AD's will lie telling officials there are 3 (only schedule 2), then not pay the additional money for not having a third. They will try to do this is baseball and softball as well. I've heard similar stories in Volleyball but do not officiate that sport. Officials talk to one another and we talk at association meetings.
Click to expand...
The officials can see who the crew is. Every OHSAA game (thus, an AD) in the state of Ohio is in the same system and you can see your crew. If they are using another system, that violates OHSAA policies.

Please do tell us where there are 3 alleged scheduled officials in baseball and softball on a regular basis. Considering there are Varsity games being worked by officials by themselves, I think this is BS.

The schools are required to pay what they agree to pay in contracts with assignors/officials. If each member of a smaller crew is not paid more when there are less than the normal amount, that is on the officials and assignors for awful negotiation skills. Every school we assign for pays the full crew rate/# of officials for less than the normal amount (which includes double in BB/SB if you work solo). For example it's $300 for a crew of 4 to do a JV game. If there are are three, they each get $100. If a JH VB game is $50 per official and one does it alone, they get $100. Schools budget for a full crew, sure it is nice to save some $ but that is not our problem as officials.
 
Last edited:
smurfyeah19 said:
No, no. I'm saying those are usually the only fouls you call. Sure other things like that can happen, but by and large you do not have the intensity of play or size of playbook that causes all of those fouls on a Friday. Need to be lenient as well with that age group, do everything possible for instance before the play to get 7 on the LOS and help them out.


A lot of the problem is just timing. 10 AM on Saturday? 4-5 PM on a Thursday? Those aren't ideal times for most people's schedules. That's really what it's coming down to, the spread offense is pushing the older officials out sooner and significant sub varsity time is needed before you're ready for a Friday night. Newer officials should realistically be doing at least a dozen JH/JV contests to prepare themselves adequately for the speed and everything that comes with a varsity game. That's a big problem right now, I've seen first years on the field on their mechanics are just not there. It leads to some big mess-ups.
Click to expand...
We fight this all the time. Some JH wants to play at 4:45pm and it is hard to get officials there. Back up to 5:30 and it's a different story.

10am on Saturday is not as hard as you think. But, you are competing with youth leagues/pee wee paying 1.5x more than the schools and guys are doing 5-6 of those in a day for cash money.
 
Last edited:
cmonman said:
You’ll soon see basketball with two in varsity and baseball with one umpire in many low level games and non league contests.
Click to expand...
Went to a Clippers game with only 2 umps. I thought that that it was ridiculous pro baseball couldnt even afford 3 umps.
 
chs1971 said:
I have no idea.
Click to expand...

umpire16 said:
The officials can see who the crew is. Every OHSAA game (thus, an AD) in the state of Ohio is in the same system and you can see your crew. If they are using another system, that violates OHSAA policies.

Please do tell us where there are 3 alleged scheduled officials in baseball and softball on a regular basis. Considering there are Varsity games being worked by officials by themselves, I think this is BS.

The schools are required to pay what they agree to pay in contracts with assignors/officials. If each member of a smaller crew is not paid more when there are less than the normal amount, that is on the officials and assignors for awful negotiation skills. Every school we assign for pays the full crew rate/# of officials for less than the normal amount (which includes double in BB/SB if you work solo). For example it's $300 for a crew of 4 to do a JV game. If there are are three, they each get $100. If a JH VB game is $50 per official and one does it alone, they get $100. Schools budget for a full crew, sure it is nice to save some $ but that is not our problem as officials.
Click to expand...
In baseball for scrimmages shady A.d's will assign 1 and not put the pay on the dragon fly contract. Then attempt to pay normal rate. So if normal umpire rate is 75 and its supposed to be 100 if solo, A.d will still attempt to pay 75, i've fought this several times with several A.d's, I now reject any games that do not have the rate if solo.
 
umpire16 said:
The officials can see who the crew is. Every OHSAA game (thus, an AD) in the state of Ohio is in the same system and you can see your crew. If they are using another system, that violates OHSAA policies.

Please do tell us where there are 3 alleged scheduled officials in baseball and softball on a regular basis. Considering there are Varsity games being worked by officials by themselves, I think this is BS.

The schools are required to pay what they agree to pay in contracts with assignors/officials. If each member of a smaller crew is not paid more when there are less than the normal amount, that is on the officials and assignors for awful negotiation skills. Every school we assign for pays the full crew rate/# of officials for less than the normal amount (which includes double in BB/SB if you work solo). For example it's $300 for a crew of 4 to do a JV game. If there are are three, they each get $100. If a JH VB game is $50 per official and one does it alone, they get $100. Schools budget for a full crew, sure it is nice to save some $ but that is not our problem as officials.
Click to expand...
A.D's can manipulate dragon fly and arbiter. Some A.d's will assign themselves or a staff member as third member of a officiating crew in football, and they have no intentions of having that person actually officiate and takes them off an hour before the game.
 
LCL said:
Went to a Clippers game with only 2 umps. I thought that that it was ridiculous pro baseball couldnt even afford 3 umps.
Click to expand...
It wasn't that many years ago that two-umpire crews were the standard in the minor leagues, even though most MiLB leagues (including AA and AAA) now use three except in cases of illness/injury.
 
smurfyeah19 said:
This is how it gets fixed. Now that 3 officials is becoming commonplace for sub varsity, the pay has really improved for these games. I'd say at this point Friday nights are not where the money is made. JH games see only four fouls usually anyways; block in the back, holding, false start and encroachment. You're telling me $50-70 a game isn't enough for that age?
Click to expand...
70 maybe but you have to figure in travel, time spent, etc.
 
I’m going to give my take on the officiating in Ohio high school. This is just my opinion and I am not out to offend/ trigger anyone in doing so. This is what I see as a CEO / owner of a business. There are defiantly problems with the officiating situation, and quite honestly it all falls on the OHSAA. As with any governing body they need to own this problem and have leaders within the organization resolve it. After all, running any such entity is constantly solving problems. When I first heard the PSA announcement before the games requesting that the attendees be kind to the officials, I was embarrassed for the state. Placing public blame on patrons instead of solving the problem is inexcusable. From the outside looking in, the first thing that stands out is the lack of compensation for the officials. The obvious love of the game is being taken advantage of…period. In order to receive great service, one must compensate the provider in order for them to care about quality. In my opinion, it is a travesty if these said officials don’t each make at least $200 per game, as a matter of fact I think it is an insult. I am not going to get into the details of how this can be paid for, but good leaders will find a way. An example; if attendees complain so much about the officials, they should be more than happy to pay an additional few dollars on the ticket price to help solve the problem. The second thing that stands out to me is the need to amplify the prestige of the officials. They should be recognized for the countless hours of training, dedication and love they put into this sport. I think that every official that has earned, and is selected to work a state championship game should be awarded a championship ring or some other valued token of their performance. Again, I give an example as to the direction. Ohio high schools are fortunate in the fact we have so many great people that officiate these games, but we are at a time when the current model is proving not to be sustainable and a change needs to be made.
 
Last edited:
OHSAA doesn't set the regular season game fees; that's on the leagues. And, as you noted, that is passed along in the form of higher admission fees.
In fact, 2-3 years ago the Inter Valley Conference in Tuscarawas County announced higher ticket prices and in the press release laid the reason directly on higher costs for game officials. Then they backtracked and said it was higher administrative costs (electricity, security personnel, etc.).
 
LCL said:
Went to a Clippers game with only 2 umps. I thought that that it was ridiculous pro baseball couldnt even afford 3 umps.
Click to expand...
Likely due to injury, personal emergency, or illness at the last minute. Each pro club has a list of local officials who are ex-pro or can work the game who are able to cover. But sometimes the time notification (especially in August/September) is too late to get anyone, and MiLB permits two at the AAA level. But in any case, things do happen. I used to be on the list for the Dayton Dragons and literally would get calls at 5:45 asking me if I could come to a 7:05 start.
lightspeed84 said:
A.D's can manipulate dragon fly and arbiter. Some A.d's will assign themselves or a staff member as third member of a officiating crew in football, and they have no intentions of having that person actually officiate and takes them off an hour before the game.
Click to expand...
First, no AD is (should be) using arbiter. OHSAA was direct about game contracts being in arbiter being null and void. And they will be coming after anyone who does because it violates the contract they have with DragonFly.

What you are suggesting is not possible from a technical or role-based perspective in DragonFly. And if it was back-ended, the OHSAA would see it and you would be getting a nasty call.

In the event that somehow this all does happen, and you don’t get paid accordingly, that’s on the Officials and the assigner for not negotiating fairly. Most pay rates are agreed upon by a league so if they’re not paying it at the league level, then you’re definitely getting screwed. As an assignor I will not contract with any school or league which doesnt pay officials full fee for scrimmages. If they dont, then they are on their own and are still subject to the provisions of the state. It is possible some coach may officiate a scrimmage but then no intelligent AD would put someone on a game - even if to pay them. That is a huge liability and pay issue.
 
Logndog said:
I’m going to give my take on the officiating in Ohio high school. This is just my opinion and I am not out to offend/ trigger anyone in doing so. This is what I see as a CEO / owner of a business. There are defiantly problems with the officiating situation, and quite honestly it all falls on the OHSAA. As with any governing body they need to own this problem and have leaders within the organization resolve it. After all, running any such entity is constantly solving problems. When I first heard the PSA announcement before the games requesting that the attendees be kind to the officials, I was embarrassed for the state. Placing public blame on patrons instead of solving the problem is inexcusable. From the outside looking in, the first thing that stands out is the lack of compensation for the officials. The obvious love of the game is being taken advantage of…period. In order to receive great service, one must compensate the provider in order for them to care about quality. In my opinion, it is a travesty if these said officials don’t each make at least $200 per game, as a matter of fact I think it is an insult. I am not going to get into the details of how this can be paid for, but good leaders will find a way. An example; if attendees complain so much about the officials, they should be more than happy to pay an additional few dollars on the ticket price to help solve the problem. The second thing that stands out to me is the need to amplify the prestige of the officials. They should be recognized for the countless hours of training, dedication and love they put into this sport. I think that every official that has earned, and is selected to work a state championship game should be awarded a championship ring or some other valued token of their performance. Again, I give an example as to the direction. Ohio high schools are fortunate in the fact we have so many great people that officiate these games, but we are at a time when the current model is proving not to be sustainable and a change needs to be made.
Click to expand...
Appreciate not only your comments but also your realism on the fact the current model sucks (it does, and has for some time). The OHSAA maintains they cannot get involved in compensation. They can, but they wont. I have been in the room when this has come up and they refuse to budge. Their reasons are...not wrong, but also not right. There are 28 other state HS associations set rates, no reason OHSAA cannot.

Another factor is that the "be nice" warning needs changed to "Our officials are selected....they are Jim Bob and so and so...if you are interested in learning more about officiating or becoming an official, visit OHSAA.org/officiating." I've said this from the mountaintops and get no traction. Heck, put flyers in the athletic game program or an ad and promote that way.

You are able to get a ring for working state, but like athletes you have to pay for it. There was discussion a few years ago about a special patch to be worn on your uniform or some sort of device for working state but it was lost in the pandemic.

Pay is tenable. The officials have the advantage right now. I always advocate for more $ and the schools have made it work. Newer ADs are more creative at fundraising which has helped tremendously and many school budgets now include officials' fees as a personnel line item versus relying on the athletic budgets to pay. Lots of "that is the way we've always done it" that are going the wayside (finally).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top