The Official 2022 Cincinnati Reds Thread

14Red

Well-known member
You are missing the point that I made earlier (twice) and also Indiandad and nwwarrior09 made similar points.

I'm sure the Reds wanted to keep Winker - he also had a reasonable (low) salary for his production. The Mariners smartly said, "sure, we'll take Suarez contract off of your hands, but you need to throw in Winker also".

As the Reds try to trade Moustakas or Shogo to dump those salaries, the other teams will likely say "Sure, we'll take the Moose contract if you throw in Mahle (or Castillo / India / etc.)". So guys the Reds very much want to keep may be traded just to dump undesired salaries.




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Not at all my friend. Winker is 28 years old, has been injured often, and plays the outfield, a position that you can find guys. India and Stephenson are younger, make minimum for the forseeable future. Also, Stephenson is a catcher. Now IF someone would take Moustakas off our hands and they asked for India...i'd have to consider it.
Target Bullseye GIF by Biteable
 

Gh0st

Well-known member
If you think Nick Krall was excited to part with Winker and Suarez for basically nothing, you can guess again. GM's want to win.

This is 100% an ownership decision, to dump salary. I'm sure Krall was ordered to get rid of the Suarez contract to save money. He then got strong-armed by Seattle into including Winker in the deal, and he had to do it because his boss said so, and he is a weak GM.

I'm sure Crapellini also has told Krall to get rid of Moose and Akiyama salaries, but that will be even harder than Suarez. Don't be shocked if guys like Castillo, Mahle, or even India/Stephenson get packaged with Moose or Akiyama in order to dump the useless salaries.
Trading India would probably do it for a lot of Reds fans. There's no stronger sign of prolonged rebuild than trading a ROY still firmly under team control for little money.

Not sure how the front office expects any fans to support a team clearly in contention for the worst record in the majors.
 

jtk

Well-known member
no way they would unload india or stephenson.

good to see the nicknames for reds employees has started already lol. not sure how you are going to do with the carret not taking the mound this year. lol

jtk
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wolves82

Well-known member
Reds get LHP Mike Minor from the Royals and cash for Amir Garrett. I'll be fascinated on how this one is received by Reds nation???

If the Reds plan is to dump salary and get young prospects, fine. That is what it looks like the plan is, when you trade Gray, Suarez and Winker for a bunch of kids.

Then please explain to me how this trade fits the plan?
- Garrett is 29, making $2M in 2022, then arbitration
- Minor is 34, making $10M in 2022, with a $13M option in 2023

Not to mention that Minor is basically Wade Miley (older guy, lefty starter, so-so career numbers, ERA over 5 the last few years). So why do you dump Wade Miley and trade for this guy? Or... if you need a starter - maybe just keep Sonny instead of dumping him and trading for this used dishrag of an arm?

Bottom line, incompetent front office with no plan. Same half-assed re-build we have seen for a couple decades. Either re-build fully, or try to compete. These half-measures are sucking the life out of me and the rest of the fan base.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Not at all my friend. Winker is 28 years old, has been injured often, and plays the outfield, a position that you can find guys. India and Stephenson are younger, make minimum for the forseeable future. Also, Stephenson is a catcher. Now IF someone would take Moustakas off our hands and they asked for India...i'd have to consider it.
So Winker is just a "guy" in the OF. Got it.

I thought he was an All-Star OF, with the 3rd best OPS in baseball against RHP and .950 overall OPS. With a $7M salary (40th among OF). I thought he was good, and a keeper. My bad.

And if you truly would consider trading India, the reigning rookie of the year, in the middle of a rebuild, just to dump salary, then you might be just as dumb as Krall. In fact, is this Nick Krall's burner Yappi account?
 

14Red

Well-known member
If the Reds plan is to dump salary and get young prospects, fine. That is what it looks like the plan is, when you trade Gray, Suarez and Winker for a bunch of kids.

Then please explain to me how this trade fits the plan?
- Garrett is 29, making $2M in 2022, then arbitration
- Minor is 34, making $10M in 2022, with a $13M option in 2023

Not to mention that Minor is basically Wade Miley (older guy, lefty starter, so-so career numbers, ERA over 5 the last few years). So why do you dump Wade Miley and trade for this guy? Or... if you need a starter - maybe just keep Sonny instead of dumping him and trading for this used dishrag of an arm?

Bottom line, incompetent front office with no plan. Same half-assed re-build we have seen for a couple decades. Either re-build fully, or try to compete. These half-measures are sucking the life out of me and the rest of the fan base.
Ok, I actually anticipated this response from some Reds fans, not necessarily you because I thought you could see things a little clearer. You traded Gray because you got a #1 prospect - a guy who may be a top end starter someday - for a 5 inning / 25 start guy who makes alot of money and is a .500 pitcher. You traded Amir Garrett because he's AWFUL and got a major league STARTING pitcher!!! My guess is you'll never see the $13 option next season. He also has ties with your pitching coach.

Please stop using rebuild. That's a tired term. This is doing what you can now so you have the ability to have some roster flexibility. Every franchise has good young prospects, the Reds ones will now get a chance to contribute...or not. Mike Minor's not going to turn us around, but for a starting pitcher, $10 mill is the going rate. Minor, Mahle, Castillo, Gutierrez and possibly Greene/ Lodolo/ ??? and we'll roll with it.
 

14Red

Well-known member
So Winker is just a "guy" in the OF. Got it.

I thought he was an All-Star OF, with the 3rd best OPS in baseball against RHP and .950 overall OPS. With a $7M salary (40th among OF). I thought he was good, and a keeper. My bad.

And if you truly would consider trading India, the reigning rookie of the year, in the middle of a rebuild, just to dump salary, then you might be just as dumb as Krall. In fact, is this Nick Krall's burner Yappi account?
Mike Minor was an all star a few years ago??? Winker had a hot first half last year and got into the game. Look, I'm not dumping on Winker, he's the REASON we were able to get rid of the Suarez contract. I didn't want to lose him, but sometimes you have give a little to get a little. All I'm saying is Winker wasn't going to be a foundation block for this franchise. His numbers vs. lefties were terrible, he's not great defensively and he's slow. Wink is a good hitter, especially vs. righties and that's about his level.
 

Orin Swift

Well-known member
Trading India would probably do it for a lot of Reds fans. There's no stronger sign of prolonged rebuild than trading a ROY still firmly under team control for little money.

Not sure how the front office expects any fans to support a team clearly in contention for the worst record in the majors.
India doesn’t make enough money for them to sell him off right now. But yeah, if he was making $3m this year instead of $570k then Bob would have traded him for some fresh produce and a 10th round pick in 2028.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Ok, I actually anticipated this response from some Reds fans, not necessarily you because I thought you could see things a little clearer. You traded Gray because you got a #1 prospect - a guy who may be a top end starter someday - for a 5 inning / 25 start guy who makes alot of money and is a .500 pitcher. You traded Amir Garrett because he's AWFUL and got a major league STARTING pitcher!!! My guess is you'll never see the $13 option next season. He also has ties with your pitching coach.

Please stop using rebuild. That's a tired term. This is doing what you can now so you have the ability to have some roster flexibility. Every franchise has good young prospects, the Reds ones will now get a chance to contribute...or not. Mike Minor's not going to turn us around, but for a starting pitcher, $10 mill is the going rate. Minor, Mahle, Castillo, Gutierrez and possibly Greene/ Lodolo/ ??? and we'll roll with it.
Once again, missing the point of my post. Let me simplify, and please answer.

The Reds are clearly dumping salaries (Miley, Lorenzen, Barnhart, Gray, Castellanos, Winker, Suarez) and adding prospects for the future, not planning on competing this year. Then why add a marginal 34 year old pitcher (career ERA well over 4.00) for $10M?
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
Once again, missing the point of my post. Let me simplify, and please answer.

The Reds are clearly dumping salaries (Miley, Lorenzen, Barnhart, Gray, Castellanos, Winker, Suarez) and adding prospects for the future, not planning on competing this year. Then why add a marginal 34 year old pitcher (career ERA well over 4.00) for $10M?
Because the Reds front office is stupid and think it is better to act like your competing with a $90M payroll than to dump as much salary as possible and build a warchest for when you are actually competitive.

We saw them "rebuild" for years with a $100M payroll and then had no money to actually field a winning team for more than 2 years.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Once again, missing the point of my post. Let me simplify, and please answer.

The Reds are clearly dumping salaries (Miley, Lorenzen, Barnhart, Gray, Castellanos, Winker, Suarez) and adding prospects for the future, not planning on competing this year. Then why add a marginal 34 year old pitcher (career ERA well over 4.00) for $10M?
I would not include Castellenos in a salary dump. He was not under contract this year for the Reds, he's a free agent. Miley, Lorenzen, Barnhart, Gray, Suarez were all not deemed worthy of their projected salaries for the 2022 season and forward if they were under contract. Winker was thrown in to help the Suarez trade.
I don't think the Reds are required to declare to the fan base, major league baseball or really anyone what their intentions are. They are putting a competitive field on the team with an eye on today and the future.
Fans continue to amaze me. We have NO authority in how the Reds run their team, just as McDonald's runs their restaurant or WalMart runs their stores. Why do fans feel like they can run a ball club and spend other people's money? I will support whoever has Reds uniforms on during the season. I don't have to agree with every decision the team makes, the manager makes, the players performances.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
I would not include Castellenos in a salary dump. He was not under contract this year for the Reds, he's a free agent. Miley, Lorenzen, Barnhart, Gray, Suarez were all not deemed worthy of their projected salaries for the 2022 season and forward if they were under contract. Winker was thrown in to help the Suarez trade.
I don't think the Reds are required to declare to the fan base, major league baseball or really anyone what their intentions are. They are putting a competitive field on the team with an eye on today and the future.
Fans continue to amaze me. We have NO authority in how the Reds run their team, just as McDonald's runs their restaurant or WalMart runs their stores. Why do fans feel like they can run a ball club and spend other people's money? I will support whoever has Reds uniforms on during the season. I don't have to agree with every decision the team makes, the manager makes, the players performances.
did not answer the question. thanks.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Because the Reds front office is stupid and think it is better to act like your competing with a $90M payroll than to dump as much salary as possible and build a warchest for when you are actually competitive.

We saw them "rebuild" for years with a $100M payroll and then had no money to actually field a winning team for more than 2 years.
This is the correct answer to my question that 14Red does not answer.
 

Sig Hansen

Well-known member
Reds sign Colin Moran

Seriously, what is the plan for this team??? Either tank or don't.

Moran always destroys the Reds so I'm happy the Reds picked him up. But it's like Krall's plan is to win exactly 70 games and stay mediocre forever.
 

Indiandad

Well-known member
Reds sign Colin Moran

Seriously, what is the plan for this team??? Either tank or don't.

Moran always destroys the Reds so I'm happy the Reds picked him up. But it's like Krall's plan is to win exactly 70 games and stay mediocre forever.
The plan is to tank without appearing to tank. They don't want to get sued by the players union like the the Pirates, Ray's and A's etc are.

Gotta spend just enough to plausibly deny tanking accusations.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Reds sign Colin Moran

Seriously, what is the plan for this team??? Either tank or don't.

Moran always destroys the Reds so I'm happy the Reds picked him up. But it's like Krall's plan is to win exactly 70 games and stay mediocre forever.
Right? Indiandad nailed the plan, tank but in a less obvious way.

First they spend money on Minor, a washed up lefty starter (ERA over 5 the last 2 years).

Then Moran, who is basically another immobile, left-handed batting corner infielder. He could give Votto or Moose an occasional day off against a tough lefty pitcher, except he is also a lefty. Very little thinking going on in those offices. plus people think of Moran as a power hitter because he has 10 HR against the Reds, but he has 45 career HRs. yep, 45. Maybe he is just DH against righties?
 

AEW Champion

Well-known member
Key point of yesterday's trades....Seattle took the entire contract of Suarez, all of the approximate $35 million. That is huge. Does not matter what we got back in return. Nick Krall had to jump out of his chair when he found a team willing to take Suarez.
Go pockets of Bob!

Fans shouldn’t give a single damn whether the Reds are paying $9.5M a year to Suarez or not. That’s basically chump change to a better franchise.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
 

AEW Champion

Well-known member
The Mike Minor trade was clearly a knee-jerk reaction from ownership to the extremely angry backlash from the fanbase to the clear tank job that is/was being done.

As usual, this franchise fails to execute even the most basic of plans. Anyone with a brain knows that the Reds should have been planning to compete around 2024 and thereafter, with Greene, Lodolo, Barrero, India, Stephenson and perhaps Senzel as seasoned, cornerstone players to build around at that point.

Had that been the emphasis, the fire sale should have started last June — trading Winker, Mahle and Castellanos at their highest value for a prospect haul to supplement the major league team in 2024 and thereafter. Miley’s option easily could have been picked up and then traded for something to a 2022 contender.

Instead, the Reds traded Gray for a coin flip prospect who might pan out in 4 or 5 years. One good prospect comes over in the Mariners trade. And that’s about it. The Reds have lost Castellanos, Barnhart, Miley, Gray and Winker and somehow gotten very little of value in return. Add in letting Lorenzen and Givens walk as free agents and the team sucks for 2022 and is not adequately stocked for 2024-27 era like it should be. For what it’s worth, Castillo would be the one upcoming free agent ahead of 2024 who I would’ve tried to sign to a big deal to keep him around as part of the 2024 era rotation fronted with him, Lodolo and Greene.

It’s the same refrain as 2013-14 when it was clear that era was over and they held onto guys like Chapman, Leake, Frazier, etc. way too long and got comparatively little return value for what they should have gotten, thus slowing down and harming the last attempt to successfully rebuild.

Ownership is horrible and the front office is somehow even worse. Nick Krall just keeps getting pantsed by his fellow GMs. Ironically, if it were done in a vacuum, the Minor deal is the first good move they made.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
 

Auglaize99

Active member
Reds sign Colin Moran

Seriously, what is the plan for this team??? Either tank or don't.

Moran always destroys the Reds so I'm happy the Reds picked him up. But it's like Krall's plan is to win exactly 70 games and stay mediocre forever.
I think you are selling them short, seems to me they want to hit 72 wins exactly. They have convinced me to save the money I spent on VPN last year to get around MLB TV blackouts.
 

GCPRO

Well-known member
Plain and simple=Nick Krall would not be employed by any other MLB franchise above the status of season ticket sales. Reds ownership has gone all in with the Bengals former mediocrity plan. Minor was signed as Wolves pointed out. Simply an illusion.
Many people, myself included, view going to Reds games as a recreational activity. The ownership has taken advantage of this thought process in my mind. Until Reds fans stay away, like Bengal fans the past 3 years, this will not change. The difference being there is no lucky Joe Burrow charm in MLB. JMO
 

14Red

Well-known member
The Mike Minor trade was clearly a knee-jerk reaction from ownership to the extremely angry backlash from the fanbase to the clear tank job that is/was being done.

As usual, this franchise fails to execute even the most basic of plans. Anyone with a brain knows that the Reds should have been planning to compete around 2024 and thereafter, with Greene, Lodolo, Barrero, India, Stephenson and perhaps Senzel as seasoned, cornerstone players to build around at that point.

Had that been the emphasis, the fire sale should have started last June — trading Winker, Mahle and Castellanos at their highest value for a prospect haul to supplement the major league team in 2024 and thereafter. Miley’s option easily could have been picked up and then traded for something to a 2022 contender.

Instead, the Reds traded Gray for a coin flip prospect who might pan out in 4 or 5 years. One good prospect comes over in the Mariners trade. And that’s about it. The Reds have lost Castellanos, Barnhart, Miley, Gray and Winker and somehow gotten very little of value in return. Add in letting Lorenzen and Givens walk as free agents and the team sucks for 2022 and is not adequately stocked for 2024-27 era like it should be. For what it’s worth, Castillo would be the one upcoming free agent ahead of 2024 who I would’ve tried to sign to a big deal to keep him around as part of the 2024 era rotation fronted with him, Lodolo and Greene.

It’s the same refrain as 2013-14 when it was clear that era was over and they held onto guys like Chapman, Leake, Frazier, etc. way too long and got comparatively little return value for what they should have gotten, thus slowing down and harming the last attempt to successfully rebuild.

Ownership is horrible and the front office is somehow even worse. Nick Krall just keeps getting pantsed by his fellow GMs. Ironically, if it were done in a vacuum, the Minor deal is the first good move they made.

It’s true, it’s true. Trust me …
I truly respect your opinion and enjoy your posts. I do disagree on some of your points...
-if you think the Reds give a flip about what the fan base thinks, you're giving us way too much credit. Pro sports is one way relationship, it's marketing's job to get people to the games. Many people today don't go to the games for the game. It's and event, it's something to do. Corporate seats flood the lower levels of these stadiums and many people who sit in them don't even pay for them. The seats that aren't used show up on StubHub, SeatGeek or Vivid and it's a market value day.
-Fannies in seats means ZERO today. Advantage ownership. TV and network deals is where it's at. There are enough of us die hard fans out here that's going to follow the team daily to keep them afloat. And when the win, all the naysayers will be back. Everyone loves a winner.
-I continue to laugh at he fire sale notion. Anytime a team gets rid of fan favorites, people claim it's a fire sale. The Reds will be competitive this year. When healthy, they can put a very competitive lineup on the field.
-the four folks you mentioned, Castellenos, Barnhart, Miley, Gray and Winker would have cost the team give or take between $50-$60 million this season. Castellenos simply was never going to be signed here. Like it or not, giving him $100+ million would not had been a good move today, tomorrow, next year or 5 years from now. Barnhard, Miley, Gray are all just guys who's salaries would not equal what they give you in return, it's a business. Say what you want about Gray, but you got a #1 pick for him. Now yes, it's not a foregone conclusion he's going to ever even be a big leaguer, but you basically got a first round pick from 2018, for Gray, then picked a guy much like Gray, that's a great move!!
-The Reds were primed to compete in 13-14. it's just armchair quarterbacking to say otherwise after the fact. Heck that team was alot closer to competing then than we were this year and look at the angst the Reds front office has got the last few weeks.

Let's just stop guessing and playing GM and just enjoy the guys who are in uniform as this season goes.
 

wolves82

Well-known member
Or be miserable as many Reds fans are an constantly criticize the product.
You may recall that I have been extremely positive the last several years on the Reds chances, and wanted the team to get help needed at the trading deadlines to help push the team into the playoffs. 2 years ago it was an extra bat or two. Last year it was bullpen help. Of course, the Reds did not do so either year.

Even during the work stoppage, I was optimistic about the year - this team was not far away from what the Cards and Brewers had, just needed a few more pieces. Instead, the moment the work stoppage ended, the Reds did what?
- Refuse to negotiate with Castellanos
- Trade Gray, Suarez and Winker for nobody that will contribute to wins in 2022.

As a fan, am I not allowed to be unhappy when the team is clearly not trying to win this year? Am I not allowed to question what they are doing? I'm not the type to go through life with blinders on (like you) and say 'everything my team does is smart', even when it is obviously not smart.
 

14Red

Well-known member
Thank goodness Kyle Farmer is a great guy and doesn't get butt hurt about things. Looks like he's going to be the starting SS for your Reds through at least April. Jose Barrero has an injury to his hammate bone, I believe this the same injury Aristes Aquino had a few years back. The way the Reds roster shapes up, there are alot of guys on the team who can play multiple positions. Reds high level prospect Graham Ashcraft getting the start today. We got some pretty good arms in the system folks.
 

brianwr112

Well-known member
I’m not sure Kyle Farmer’s really in a position to make demands on where he plays. Think he’d be happy with just being healthy and in the lineup
 
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