Solution to the Mid-State League Problems

pickcosportsfan said:
Hammy could still cross over and play Carroll and Amanda. We want to make sure all the good folks at Hammy can enjoy that atmosphere at The Pit and the good french fries.
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Last time one of BU/FC stepped into The Pit, it was not an enjoyable experience. But, hey, a man can dream!

Obviously, as we know, the thing that serves as the big hiccup from making the spit-ball into reality is how tethered football is to conference formation. It'd be a fun baseball conference, though, with fun gymnasium experiences and wicked great travel distances.
 
The Dock said:
Last time one of BU/FC stepped into The Pit, it was not an enjoyable experience. But, hey, a man can dream!

Obviously, as we know, the thing that serves as the big hiccup from making the spit-ball into reality is how tethered football is to conference formation. It'd be a fun baseball conference, though, with fun gymnasium experiences and wicked great travel distances.
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I agree that Carroll would likely be a hard pass, but the interesting thing is 8/10 games would be either against opponents they control or have played over recent years. And with how bad the bottom of the Buckeye has been over the last 5-6 years, I don't think playing Fisher and Berne would be that much different.
 
pickcosportsfan said:
I agree that Carroll would likely be a hard pass, but the interesting thing is 8/10 games would be either against opponents they control or have played over recent years. And with how bad the bottom of the Buckeye has been over the last 5-6 years, I don't think playing Fisher and Berne would be that much different.
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With BC politely turning down the LCL feeler that was sent their way this past winter, it's likely the sum of three things...

1) HT + year-by-year statewide opponent to fill the gap = HT + Teays

2) loyalty to the Mid-State League (although I think BC isn't too interested in making a move based on a knee-jerk reaction to the past five years athletically... when the 'great reconfiguration' talks that happened in 2010/11 were happening, BC was the smallest school in the Buckeye and wasn't what it was today; they were kind of a 'tweener' where the 2 divisions of 9 option that was floated could've suited them well based on recent history at the time)

3) good to have leverage for down the road... growing district; great sports; to the point of leverage, that leverage goes out the window to an extent if they would've agreed to sign up for the LCL.
 
Not to go off topic but I wish Fisher Catholic were playing all of there home games on Saturday like in the past even if Lancaster was on the road. In the past I would be able to attend both games in a week and would see a lot of letter jackets from schools all over Fairfield county as well as some other schools from surrounding areas attend these games. It has been a trend in recent years for them to play on Friday when Lancaster is on the road. I have heard that attendance to games haven't been the same as when games were on Saturday. I know it is tough when Ohio State plays at night for some fans to attend when that occurs. For the first time since 1993, I will not be at any Fisher Catholic games because I'll be watching the Gales on Friday, and the one Saturday Fisher plays I have tickets to the OSU-Mich St. in Lansing that day. I just would like to see these home games back on Saturday. Just being selfish.
 
lancaster90 said:
Not to go off topic but I wish Fisher Catholic were playing all of there home games on Saturday like in the past even if Lancaster was on the road. In the past I would be able to attend both games in a week and would see a lot of letter jackets from schools all over Fairfield county as well as some other schools from surrounding areas attend these games. It has been a trend in recent years for them to play on Friday when Lancaster is on the road. I have heard that attendance to games haven't been the same as when games were on Saturday. I know it is tough when Ohio State plays at night for some fans to attend when that occurs. For the first time since 1993, I will not be at any Fisher Catholic games because I'll be watching the Gales on Friday, and the one Saturday Fisher plays I have tickets to the OSU-Mich St. in Lansing that day. I just would like to see these home games back on Saturday. Just being selfish.
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First, thank you for your consistent support as a fan/spectator with no immediate irons in the fire. The kids and parents genuinely appreciate having as many people at the games as possible.

I’m 100% with ‘ya. I do remember when they started to play home games on Friday: the first couple years I liked it because it SEEMED like we were more “in” with the general high school football fabric locally (compared to being on Saturday’s.) After a while I grew to dislike the concept of playing on Friday… partly because it STOPPED seeming like we were in the fabric. Other reasons that I prefer to get back onto Saturday’s was for WLOH radio coverage and so that the kids (as well as I) could get a richer experience by watching area games on Friday as they came.

I’m in a similar boat this year. I love watching FC play as much as possible. I drive all over the state to watch them play. There isn’t a better program to support as a fan in my eyes. But I might only get to make it to two games this year because of my schedule (I have to miss the Martins Ferry game regardless of the day due to a wedding, which is a bummer because I really wanted to watch the game) and my “watching as many high-quality games as possible” prerogative. I could watch FC three more times for sure if they were all Saturday home games otherwise — the season opener vs TCC is the same night as Jeremy McKinney’s HC debut as BC hosts Harvest Prep (hard game to pass up), I’m not going to Green to watch them play (I think I’m going to watch Pick Central vs Elder at the BIG “Pit”), I am going to Spartan Stadium week three to watch them vs Portsmouth Notre Dame, but everything else aside from the home game vs Miller is off the table right now.
 
lancaster90 said:
I have heard that attendance to games haven't been the same as when games were on Saturday. I know it is tough when Ohio State plays at night for some fans to attend when that occurs.
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The only times where attendance is markedly worse is a) when the team is really, really crummy (see: 2010, which also had a really bad phenomenon of boo-birds in the stands; 2016, which only had like 15 kids on the roster and four home games) and b) the weather is brutal.

Otherwise, even mediocre-to-OK teams have garnered decent attendance. For some unknown reason their attendance tracks the opposite of Lancaster’s home attendance over the course of a season: Lancaster’s first two home games always has good crowds, but it dies by mid-September and falls off a cliff in October… whereas we have poor home crowds to start off but it picks up somewhat down the line. Heck, lately FC’s crowd of adults on the home side is around the same number as Lancaster’s come October. Not sure if that’s an indication of good attendance by us or just attrition by the Gales, but that’s another discussion for a different day.

It’s rare we directly conflict with Ohio State, but ideally we can schedule around them (1pm starts when we know they have a night game.)
 
I'm going to respond sort of in a reverse order.
Zunardo said:
2. What did The Dock know, and when did he know it? :unsure:?
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So, I had no prior knowledge concerning this morning's development. In that, I did not have an inkling that this was going to happen before the Cardinal announced their planned departure.

The Cardinal schools (BU, Rosecrans, FC, FCA, Miller, Millersport and Grove City Christian) were in talks over the summer to form their own league, and, had the Ohio schools not announced their own defection first, were in the final steps of announcing their departure as soon as next Wednesday. Because this impending departure was going to logically force Harvest Prep into the Ohio Division, there was a pretty solid understanding that logic was going to end up putting Harvest Prep and Wellington back into the Ohio Division with those schools -- which would have caused the Ohio Division schools to leave in response after the Cardinal. A chain reaction.

Prior to the May meeting this year, there was an understood threat by the Ohio Division schools that they were going to leave because the motion to put Harvest Prep into the Ohio was looming and stood to pass. The key theme and central argument behind the Ohio Division's original plan to leave then is the same one that stands today: "autonomy; wanting more say over who comes in and who goes out." Now, what had changed the Ohio Division's decision in May was the combination of two things: 1) Harvest Prep's move into the Ohio got killed because the votes from the Buckeye Division to 'red-rover' HP into the Ohio didn't come to fruition; 2) at the May meeting, there were approved changes to the Mid-State League's constitutional language and bylaws that by default were going to prevent 'red-rovering' (my words, but I'm sure we understand the concept) in the future. As many of you recall, there was a big 'red-rovering' controversy in December where the Wellington School was sent over to the Cardinal Division on a 13-9 "yes" vote where the Cardinal Division as a bloc comprised 8 of the 9 "no" votes. So, for those at home, that situation was about to happen with HP at the May meeting but the Buckeye didn't cast the clinching votes to send HP into the Ohio over like they did Wellington into the Cardinal -- and since-approved changes to the bylaws in May meant that there was never going to be a possibility for that to happen.

As for the "why is the Ohio Division leaving now, despite the May meeting working toward their stated and unstated interests": to reiterate, when the Cardinal Division was crossing the platform to enter the train out of the Mid-State League this month that was virtually going to cause either a big realignment across the board or a simple "sorry Ohio Division schools, but HP (and Wellington) need somewhere in the MSL to play and you're going to be left holding the bag."
 
Zunardo said:
1. Assuming Harvest Prep stays in the Cardinal, does this solve the "Mid-State League Problem"? Or at least partially solve?
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Unfortunately, no.

HP staying in the Cardinal really isn't a desired end by the Cardinal schools -- hence why they were threatening to leave.

Talked to various folks today, and we could read each other's thoughts. There is a very firm belief that the ultimate solution to the Mid-State League, in light of the Ohio Division's departure, is the below.

BUCKEYE (no change, stays at 7): AC, BC, CV, HT, FU, LE, LU

CARDINAL (becomes a 6 school division): BU, BR, FC, FCA, Millersport and Miller

OHIO (becomes a 5 school division, with the ultimate goal of adding a 6th school): GCC, HP, KIPP, Tree of Life, and Wellington.

The Cardinal basically holds a better hand, now, in a sudden and stunning reversal of fortune from where we were in December and June. The alternative to this is BU, BRosecrans, FC, FCA, GCC, Millersport and Miller all leave... which would put the MSL at 9 schools (the Buckeye '7', Harvest Prep and Wellington.) Put two and two together what happens to the MSL if they go to 9 schools.
 
This is wild! On that speculative proposal above, do you think Tree of Life would want to join an Ohio division with GCC, HP, KIPP, and Wellington? I know no inside information like you Dock, but it would have seemed logical for them to have wanted to join the plan on the Cardinal schools who wanted to defect to join a new conference since they're trying to get into football and that's the smallest conference in the area. I can't see them jumping at the idea to get smashed in about every sport for the near future in that revamped Ohio.

I'm trying to think of other schools inside of 270 that would even fit in the Ohio. Patriot Prep since they're growing and getting a football team soon? Horizon Science (probably not due to poor facilities). I'm fascinated by this whole thing!
 
The Dock said:
I'm going to respond sort of in a reverse order.

So, I had no prior knowledge concerning this morning's development. In that, I did not have an inkling that this was going to happen before the Cardinal announced their planned departure.
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Very well-put. Thanks as usual for the detailed response, including the subtleties. Much appreciated. :)
 
Snowman8 said:
This is wild! On that speculative proposal above, do you think Tree of Life would want to join an Ohio division with GCC, HP, KIPP, and Wellington? I know no inside information like you Dock, but it would have seemed logical for them to have wanted to join the plan on the Cardinal schools who wanted to defect to join a new conference since they're trying to get into football and that's the smallest conference in the area. I can't see them jumping at the idea to get smashed in about every sport for the near future in that revamped Ohio.
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The window of “Tree to the Cardinal” may have went from 95% open to 10% open, now, and the cruelest irony is that’s a result of the Ohio Division beating the Cardinal on leaving the MSL by a matter of weeks, if not days.

I know Tree to the MSL “HP” division isn’t ideal for Tree… but they at least could make it work. Or see it as a useful life-raft out of the MOCAL.

At the risk of sounding crude, the Cardinal “6” (or 7 if you count GCC) don’t really owe Tree anything to begin with. TOL is a good pairing partner for the Cardinal but isn’t a Belle of the Ball (football is kinda… we’ll see, I know they want to add it but that’s easier said than done; the distance isn’t a dealbreaker of course… but it could also be done without; the possible rising tide of EdChoice vis-a-vis Columbus/suburbs and how that could really boost Tree doesn’t immediately concern me or others… but it’s in the back of minds as an “unknown.”)

The last parenthesized point is what, screw it, I’ll say it plainly, basically has been an ‘ace in the hole’ for HP (good for them, good for the kids; sincerely.) It’s something that could also come down the pike for GCC (starting to happen) and Tree’s been a focal point school of the rising “school choice” discussion (former Secretary of Education, Betsy DeVos even did an event there) so the two schools — along with their enrollments and simple distance — pair better for the hopeful “HP” division. Add in Wellington (unwanted by the Cardinal.) that’s four, plus KIPP. Five.
Snowman8 said:
I'm trying to think of other schools inside of 270 that would even fit in the Ohio. Patriot Prep since they're growing and getting a football team soon? Horizon Science (probably not due to poor facilities). I'm fascinated by this whole thing!
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Both schools have been informally and lightly discussed as options, I’m told. Patriot Prep has been tacitly more serious about football than Tree of Life. Horizon isn’t out of the equation.
 
Appreciate the quick response! I’m quite enjoying following this in real time. I believe Tree has a new AD also so maybe that person doesn’t want the headache of all these changes right away? Crazy how different things could have been if they Cardinal would have defected a week earlier.
 
IMO, this is possibly the best "resolution" of this situation.

The Cardinal and Buckeye schools are (no offense to the Ohio schools) the real core of the Mid-State League. It would have been a shame if the Cardinal schools had left and formed a new conference/brand.

Throughout its history, the Ohio Division has always seemed to me to be a catchall agglomeration of schools of vastly different size, different status (public/private, wealthy suburban/urban/rural, etc.), and odd geography at times, who simply do not have better options in the region (those that have had options, such as the Licking and Madison County schools, have left). Maybe their new league will allow them to explore other options/configurations with membership north of Columbus (Marion/Knox/Morrow/Other counties, I have no idea of any interest in that area).

The Cardinal The Dock discusses (BU, FC, FCA, Miller, Millersport, Rosecrans) is a solid nucleus (with perhaps hope that the usually discussed suspects like Crooksville might join down the road). That conference makes sense in terms of competition and geography. It would be nice of them to keep GCC in the division if a new version of the Ohio (or some other name) does not materialize. I have no knowledge of the relationship between the Cardinal schools and Wellington, but it would be a less desirable outlier on several levels IMO.

I am in agreement with others that the Buckeye Division WILL NOT take Harvest Prep as an 8th member when TV leaves. They would rather deal with an odd-numbered schedule (or perhaps seek a new member to make 8) than entertain HP's addition.

I do not know how the MSL constitution/bylaws are constructed (The Dock would know), but I assume the Cardinal will give HP the boot from the division if that is possible. The Buckeye doesn't want them. Are they out by default short of a new division forming? Can they be booted, or would they simply be excised by default? A division of one? If they are out by whatever means, where can/will they go short of independent?
 
KenAndersonsMustache said:
but I assume the Cardinal will give HP the boot from the division if that is possible.
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They can't. That's the problem.
KenAndersonsMustache said:
The Buckeye doesn't want them. Are they out by default short of a new division forming? Can they be booted, or would they simply be excised by default? A division of one? If they are out by whatever means, where can/will they go short of independent?
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Can't excise by default, can't boot. I know that -- up until this recent development -- HP was pretty willing to go to the Ohio Division. Maybe they would be if GCC, Tree of Life, KIPP, Wellington (and a sixth?) would enter the fold for that division.

The below is a direct quote from Harvest Prep's head man in charge from Frank DiRenna's bombshell story, and it already serves as a clue how this is going to play out (not well!)

Harvest Prep, which competes in the MSL-Ohio for football and in the MSL-Cardinal for other sports, plans to remain in the MSL. “Our official stance in regards to our membership in the Mid-State League has not changed,” Harvest Prep Head of School Andrew Mills said in a statement to ThisWeek. “We have been members for nearly 20 years and do not wish to leave nor do we have any plans to do so in the near future. We have learned that some of the member schools have expressed their desire to no longer compete with our school, but after meeting with the league commissioner in an attempt to seek resolution, we still do not believe the league has adequately defined the reasons for asking us to consider leaving. “This has made it impossible to correct any perceived deficiencies or make an informed decision on changing our membership status. We firmly believe that such a decision impacts the well-being of our students and families, which we take seriously.” Hayes declined to comment on Harvest Prep's statement.
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The Dock said:
They can't. That's the problem.

Can't excise by default, can't boot. I know that -- up until this recent development -- HP was pretty willing to go to the Ohio Division. Maybe they would be if GCC, Tree of Life, KIPP, Wellington (and a sixth?) would enter the fold for that division.

The below is a direct quote from Harvest Prep's head man in charge from Frank DiRenna's bombshell story, and it already serves as a clue how this is going to play out (not well!)
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In other words, the Cardinal schools are going to have to leave the MSL to get rid of HP
 
RollingTrain said:
In other words, the Cardinal schools are going to have to leave the MSL to get rid of HP
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Which would then punt HP (and Wellington) into the Buckeye patch, at which point the Buckeye schools leave and HP (and Wellington) are the last man standing in the Mid-State League.

Fun times!
 
Expanding (to replenish the Ohio Division) saves the Mid-State League, because it gives Harvest Prep a home.

Not expanding basically results in the Mid-State League folding.
 
As noted, the issue with a new Ohio division is...who is there to realistically add? Counties that neighbor Franklin County seem to have fairly stable leagues/conferences. Schools in Franklin County are either too large (and already in the OCC or City League) or too small (Tree, Patriot, etc. fit with Wellington (and HP maybe) in some ways, but football issues). KIPP works, but a division of three? Can GCC be convinced to move to a new Ohio division if they cannot be moved by league rules? I wonder if there would be any hope for HP of working with the City League (though as far as I know Whitehall is the only non-CCS to ever be a member) or the CCL for HP? As the quote posted mentions, HP has steadfastly asserted that they will not leave, and if they cannot be removed, then dissolving into separate leagues may be inevitable anyway. That would kind of suck for a 60+ year league to effectively go away.
 
I'm also going to point something else out, too: if that Ohio Division isn't sustained in the future, the only option is either Harvest Prep football in the Buckeye or Harvest Prep football (back) in the Cardinal.

I said:
Harvest Prep football in the Buckeye
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Not likely to happen.

I said:
Harvest Prep football (back) in the Cardinal
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lololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololololol

...

Going to have to tell Wellington "play in the Ohio or leave, because you're not playing with the Cardinal."

Going to have to tell Tree "this is your ticket out of the MOCAL. Exactly what GCC and FCA signed up for when they left the MOCAL a decade ago."

KIPP? Don't see what their objection would be.

GCC's AD and HP's AD have a pretty good working relationship. Short of that... going to have to tell GCC "the league future of 12 other schools rests on your decision to be a team player, or not."

GCC agrees to the Ohio Division (with the other schools discussed) = yay the MSL is saved for the forseeable future

GCC doesn't agree to the Ohio Division = "you're dead to us, GCC."
 
I do have to say that it will be interesting (too light a word) or hilarious (not the right word) if the destination of a single school kills a three division league. Obviously there have been other underlying issues for years also.
 
KenAndersonsMustache said:
I do have to say that it will be interesting (too light a word) or hilarious (not the right word) if the destination of a single school kills a three division league. Obviously there have been other underlying issues for years also.
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Ye'.

It's basically an open secret that the immediate future of the Mid-State League's existence now hinges entirely on the Cardinal Division either deciding to stay, or to leave. The Ohio leaving first, instead of the Cardinal, flipped everything upside down and now the Cardinal schools (chiefly BU, FC, FCA and Rosecrans) are calling the game.

Cardinal schools defect = the league is done.

Cardinal schools stay = the league is still likely viable.

(I think the Cardinal schools, in light of this all, are far more willing to stay compared to 24 hours ago.)
 
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