So what ddi everyone think about our new state meet?

Meet management did an exceptional job with yesterday's championship. Northregional, kudos to all of you for putting together a first class event in such a short amount of time.

Certainly there are things I'm going to miss about Scioto Downs: the ROAR at the sound of the gun, the mad dash of hundreds of spectators from grandstand to south side to north side, the anticipation of watching the lead pack re-enter the stadium, and more than anything just the emotional attachment I have to that place. Many good memories from Scioto Downs. National Trails has its own advantages going for it, though, and the meet is in very good hands. New memories will be made. Yesterday's meet exceeded my expectations and I look forward to being there again next fall.
 
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Thought they did an outstanding job. Thought the food choices and quality was top notch as compared to SD. The entire atmosphere was festive and more friendly...a season ending celebration of a terrific high school sport. Thought the course was much more spectator friendly and it sure appeared the runners liked the course. A very open atmosphere where you did not feel like you were about to get trampled by people-FREE to roam about to enjoy the racing and all that surrounds it.

Concerns: Traffic is not a concern, we had plenty of traffic at SD. Concern is with rain and parking on the grassy area. A car stuck in mud is no way to end a day...lets hope all future xc meets are free of rain.

I give this year's meet host a grade of : A+
Terrific job within a short period of time.
 
Our son ran last year at SD and yesterday at NT. He said as a runner he liked NT course better. As a spectator I thought the course was actually more fan frendly. We debated whether to sit in the stands and watch from afar, or move on the ground. We found that by moving down on the ground at the bottom of the start was best. Got to see the start, went across the wall to see them run in the valley, then got back over to see them enter and come out of the woods.
Liked the venue. Parking was an issue, but I am sure it will get better. We arrived around 1:00, and the Sherriff's were still not letting cars into Lots where clearly people had already left, so we had to park in the overflow lot. Long walk, so I guess we got some exercise. As others have mentioned, we were fourtunate the weather was perfect. Rain will clearly cause issues in those Lots.
Great day for a race. Very good first time experience at NT.
 
NorthRegional,

Is there a location nearby with a lot of unused asphalt parking (schools, etc), so that specators could be bussed in/out?

I am amazed that everyone gave the thumbs up to this location knowing the disaster than could have ensued if the ground was as wet in the Columbus area as it has been in the Northeast. They would still be pulling cars out of the mud today or there were have been cars parked along 40 for miles.
 
madman said:
NorthRegional,

Is there a location nearby with a lot of unused asphalt parking (schools, etc), so that specators could be bussed in/out?

I am amazed that everyone gave the thumbs up to this location knowing the disaster than could have ensued if the ground was as wet in the Columbus area as it has been in the Northeast. They would still be pulling cars out of the mud today or there were have been cars parked along 40 for miles.
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There is a large industrial park that is to the east of NT. We have been assured by the staff of NT that unless it rains a lot, getting stuck should not be a problem. We will look into a backup plan, if Mother Nature is not as kind to us as she was yesterday.
 
I liked SD better. Traffic was not an issue at SD if you came in from the south and could turn right into the parking lot. NT was a traffic nightmare. They must get small crowds for drag races. They have no clue how to handle a crowd that big. Then we got to the ticket booth and with over 100 waiting in line they only had 3 windows open. They finally opened two more windows,this was just before the D2 girls.
 
I know I am going to get crap from everyone for saying this, but I just want to hear some thoughts: I ran the course on Thursday with my GPS watch and got my distance to be close to 3.2 miles. I know these GPSs aren't perfect, and I hate to be picky because I thought the meet was run extraordinarily by the staff, but did anyone find the same results as me?
 
GetOnTrack said:
I know I am going to get crap from everyone for saying this, but I just want to hear some thoughts: I ran the course on Thursday with my GPS watch and got my distance to be close to 3.2 miles. I know these GPSs aren't perfect, and I hate to be picky because I thought the meet was run extraordinarily by the staff, but did anyone find the same results as me?
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Look at the times, the course wasn't long
 
GetOnTrack.
IF your GPS read 3.2 or slightly over, that is a good thing IMO. Means it was pretty much dead on 3.1 by a wheel - which is how meet management is suppose to measure.
I have found that a GPS 3.1 is ALWAYS less than 3.1 miles. (Usually 80-120 meters short)
No sure why that is, but it is.
 
Keep in mind they only had two months to prepare. I'm sure everything that was a problem this year will be fixed by next year!
 
said_aouita said:
Lavern Gibson is a cross country specific facility. Good luck getting a drag strip to take fence down or put it up for an one day event.

Is it possible to compare different states Athletic Association's and their budgets spent on a sport?
Indiana has their state championships at Lavern Gibson AND also had video live streaming. I believe the live streaming was handled by IHSAA, not the finish line crew.
Ohio does not have a cross country specific facility which can handle the traffic of their HS state meet. Matter of fact, very doubtful Lavern Gibson could handle Ohio's XC state meet numbers. Indiana has one boys/girls race- no divisions. Figuring less competitors mean less spectators.

Ohio - Multiple division state championships the same day. Lots of runners brings more fans. Does the length of the day for OHSAA state XC championships mean more profit (concessions) or does the costs per worker outweigh profits?
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I'm sure Lavern Gibson could handle it being that they host NCAA's every year. and there is never even an issue with parking or traffic there.
 
I thought the spectator's amenities (restrooms, food) were better than Scioto Downs. Like other have said though, it just doesnt feel like the state meet but it grew on me as the day went on.

My problem with the course is that you cant see the runners early in the race and late in the race. If you want to see them on the west loop then you have to run there right after the start and then go straight to the finish if you want to see that. If you want to see them in the second half of the race you have to wait for 10+ minutes while they go around the west loop before they come back out across the track way off in the distance. Then the only time you can see them is when they are about 500m from the finish.

At SD, you could see the start, see them at the mile, run over and see them on the second loop during the third mile and then still see the finish. thats how i normally prefer to watch an XC race and National Trails doesnt allow for that.
 
To me it just seems like it would make sense if the course were 10 seconds long. It was a fast course in terms of terrain and the temps were awesome. Hiluf's best official time (not including Galion) was 15:13. Plus he ran that alone. I would've thought that with State competition and the energy of the crowd that he and the next few guys would run blazing times. Again, I'm really not trying to be picky and I'm certainly not criticizing the amazing athletes that competed yesterday because the times were definitely good. Just my opinion.
 
IMO the course wasn't a cross course. It was made for 1 or 2 milers. I didn't feel the course was challenging- the times spoke of that conclusion. My kid loved the course- but she is a sprinter and loves track.
I didn't like how I arrived at 8am and there were 13 rows in the top left corner of the main grandstands where I knew I could lean over and see the start and see most of the race. The seats were empty most of the race....
I like the bathrooms. Parking could be terrible in bad weather. Traffic was so bad our photographer missed the race...t-shirts were terribly designed..
But I thought overall it was a good venue.
 
Sounds like most observations were positive. Congratulations to the meet hosts on short notice in hosting this year's championships. Well done.

Also, congratulations to all the competitors and their coaches after months of hard work. You all deserve it.

A especial congratulations to all the Southwest Ohio athletes/coaches!
 
The issue of an Ohio X-C specific course has made it's way back into this thread from previous thread, I see.

As a thought, has anyone in X-Cdom ever thought of setting up a non-profit organization to promote the development and sustainment of a permanent course? With the many tens if not hundreds of thousands of runners in Ohio I'm sure many would be willing to contribute to the purchase, development, and sustainment of permanent course. With over 11 million people in Ohio, this is certainly a doable proposition.

Just food for thought.
 
That would be something! But I dont see that happening, at least not for a long time. But if there are more problems in the future at National Trails im sure making a designated course for the meet would come into discussion.
 
I also measured the course long.....2 times.

That is a shame because Prakel would now hold the all time state meet DIII record that he missed by .04.

What a shame.
 
ccrunner609 said:
I also measured the course long.....2 times.

That is a shame because Prakel would now hold the all time state meet DIII record that he missed by .04.

What a shame.
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What have you done to calibrate your measuring device and how did you ensure that you were measuring the shortest possible path? Based on your calibration procedure, what is the expected error margin over 5000 meters? Did your measurement fall outside of that error margin?

Read this thread if you think measuring a cross country course is as easy as walking it with a wheel:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=3767199&thread=3748320
 
Madman, I find a wheel just as or more inaccurate as any other device. I love watching people use a wheel and see it going back and forth in a snake like motion. THen they tell me my garmin isnt accurate.

If you have ever ran around a track with a garmin on and see the thing click over 400 meters as soon as you step on the finish line you will know it is accurate.

When I ran the course (a tight line around all corners) my garmin 405 was reading with 4 meters and picking up 32 satalites.

I will stick to my measurement that the course was upwards of 30 meters long.
 
Some people still believe the earth is flat and are going to stick with that believe regardless of what anyone else tells them or shows them...

I will not argue with your ability to read your Garmin, but there are still at least two problems. The first is that you think your Garmin is 100% accurate based on anecdotal evidence while running around a track - are you keeping the garmin 10 inches from the inside rail while running on that track?

Secondly, it's almost irrelevant whether you're hugging the turns on the course if you're not taking the shortest possible path between the turns. Following the mid-line of the course is not appropriate. I doubt you spent much effort making sure you were taking the shortest possible path, and if you did I would be curious about how you went about it.

We shouldn't be comparing times on different courses anyway. Prakel had the fastest time on Saturday at NTR. That should be sufficient. Save time comparisons for the track.
 
^^^^No I find the out dated mindset that the wheel is more accurate then the garmin reletive the "the world is flat" people that arent willing to change and admit that your old ways are better then technology.

With the garmin you get to RUN the course and move along the runners lines in a more accurate way then walk with a wheel that sways back and forth in a snaking motion (I have NEVER seen a wheel being pushed straight). THat crooked line being measured is much less accurate.
 
madman said:
Secondly, it's almost irrelevant whether you're hugging the turns on the course if you're not taking the shortest possible path between the turns. Following the mid-line of the course is not appropriate.
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True for NCAA and IAAF. True for NFHS in 2012. False for NFHS in 2011.
 
As far as measuring is concerned, if you want to be as accurate as possible using a GPS you should use a handheld that has a smoothing algorithm and an accelerometer and walk (at a steady pace) the course on the appropriate line. Because GPS contact with satellites is not continuous, every GPS device uses an algorithm to interpolate by filling in the "gaps" by some form of connecting points. Beefier devices, particularly those with accelerometers, can do more complicated algorithms and give you a more accurate reading. Devices with less processing power will tend not to be as accurate. The accelerometer helps to counteract the effects of inconsistent speed.

If you have to be dead on accurate, even the measuring tape described in the article is likely not good enough. You are probably best off with a laser range finder and a target. But jogging with a Garmin is probably as accurate as a wheel much of the time and more accurate unless the person with the wheel really knows what they are doing. The thing is no measuring system is exact. What you want to look for is (a) how much error and (b) whether the error tends to be consistently in one direction (too high or too low) under any one set of conditions. As stated in the article, if a wheel consistently under records for a given set of conditions, multiple measurements are not going to give better results.
 
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