OHSAA needs to create new divisional placement

Tallone said:
There is a simple solution to all of this. For the sake of this discussion lets divide schools into 2 basic catergories.
Category A "traditional public school where the athletes have to live in that district to be able to play. Category B " parochial/private/prep/open enrollment public/magnet."
If school A and school B have equal facilities and resources and the coaches are comporable, School B has a competetive advantage. It is common sense. School B can get athletes from anywhere, where as school A can only have athletes who live in their district. Currently NY, NJ, CT, MD DC, DE NC, TN, Al, MS, GA, LA and TX just to name a few do not allow category B schools to play in the public school playoffs. They have seperate state tournaments. Category A and B can play each other in the regular season, but play in separate playoffs. Now you do not have to worry about competetive balance. And/ they have divisions in each category based on enrollment.
In Ohio I would imagine that out of the 800 schools that compete at least 25% would fall into category B, maybe more. Just separate these schools when it comes to the playoffs.
If a school want to recruit or has open enrollment ,fine. They get to play in category B . Just cut though all of the mess.
Just a thought
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In the state of Ohio about 80% of public schools have open enrollment. Either adjacent or statewide.
 
Tallone said:
One last thought. Division 1 definitely needs to be divided into 2 divisions Huge discrepancy in numbers from the smallest D1 school to the biggest D1 school
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This argument has been mentioned for year but carries very little value. All teams play with 5 players and over history it has been seen there is not much support to the claim the teams with 1200 boys dominate basketball. It has been discussed that once a school hits 700 it has the same amount of boys interested in basketball as the school with 1200.
 
I have a question in regards to CB and open enrollment - hoping someone has the correct info....

-Does the the open enrollment CB factor count for kids open enrolling regardless of when they open enrolled? So in other words, is it always factored no matter how long they've been at the school?

I don't think there is a plausible change from size based divisions - I get what everyone wants to accomplish here, but you'd be wrecking a system that probably 98% of schools are probably ok with.

The Richmond Hts situation is bad for basketball for everyone in the state. They are cheating within the rules. The only way to beat what they are doing, is to change the transfer rules. If you transfer to open enroll anytime after 7th grade, no post season play for that player for all 4 years of high school. It's harsh, but solves a lot of problems.
 
D4fan said:
Seperate by category of school. For the most part the problem of small school super teams has came from urban or suburban densely populated areas building these programs.
Div 1 = Urban
Div 2 = large Suburban
Div 3= small suburban
Div4 = rural
Small rural communities have not been exempt from getting transfers, but it has looked different in the quality and skill they get vs VASJ playing in D4 (2013) and Richmond Heights the last couple years.

Another way to seperate would be to use a computer points system similar to football. The idea would be no one would know what division they would be placed in until after the last game of the year. Then the computer would use strength of schedule, wins/ losses etc to determine divisional placement. You could have flexibility in how many teams go into each division.
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The problem is RH would not be D1 or D2 by your rationale.

Mason, Olentangy schools, Medina, Mentor and Centerville D2 are large suburbs so they would be D2. Pick Central would be D2. Cleveland John Marshall would be D1

Richmond Hts isn't rural or urban or a large suburb so they would be D3.

I don't think this proposed plan would work any better than the current one.
 
cdub4 said:
The problem is RH would not be D1 or D2 by your rationale.

Mason, Olentangy schools, Medina, Mentor and Centerville D2 are large suburbs so they would be D2. Pick Central would be D2. Cleveland John Marshall would be D1

Richmond Hts isn't rural or urban or a large suburb so they would be D3.

I don't think this proposed plan would work any better than the current one.
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You may be correct. I posted somewhere this morning mabe using the NCAA model of placing teams by committee, or computer? Or perhaps an RPI system to not only use for seeding teams but to determine divisional placement as well.
 
CasualFan24 said:
I have a question in regards to CB and open enrollment - hoping someone has the correct info....

-Does the the open enrollment CB factor count for kids open enrolling regardless of when they open enrolled? So in other words, is it always factored no matter how long they've been at the school?
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The formula does factor in if you enrolled before the 9th grade.
 
Like other' s have posted it only takes two or three recruits to make a big difference in bball. Any team that has a CB over 20 (just a random no.) put them all in the same division.
 
spirit454 said:
The formula does factor in if you enrolled before the 9th grade.
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Stirred not Shaken said:
Like other' s have posted it only takes two or three recruits to make a big difference in bball. Any team that has a CB over 20 (just a random no.) put them all in the same division.
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Does CB have anything to do with the roster of the teams though? Do they even look at that? I thought CB was the total number of kids enrolled in the school that live outside the district? If I'm right in that, what if not one open enrolled kid plays for the basketball team? What is all the open enrollees play for the football team?
 
CasualFan24 said:
Does CB have anything to do with the roster of the teams though? Do they even look at that? I thought CB was the total number of kids enrolled in the school that live outside the district? If I'm right in that, what if not one open enrolled kid plays for the basketball team? What is all the open enrollees play for the football team?
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The CB is only using the roster in its formula. A school may have 120 students who open enroll but the CB basketball formula only checks on the ones that were on the basketball roster.
 
CasualFan24 said:
Does CB have anything to do with the roster of the teams though? Do they even look at that? I thought CB was the total number of kids enrolled in the school that live outside the district? If I'm right in that, what if not one open enrolled kid plays for the basketball team? What is all the open enrollees play for the football team?
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This from OHSAA website: The modifications are based on which students are actually on each respective roster.
 
I wonder if there is a way to do this without harshly punishing the student athlete whose family is either 1. Putting them in a better situation to succeed athletically.
2. Putting them in a better situation to succeed academically.

Imagine having a kid with a lot of potential but he/she is in a school that doesn’t take the sport serious at all therefore there is no growth opportunity happening for the kid. Then add the academics and the behavioral environment within the school. But we are going to severely punish the family for wanting more for their kid?

I am not saying that’s the case for every one of these transfers but it has to be the case for a lot of them. Matter a fact I know it’s the case for the ones that I know.
 
419Jester said:
I wonder if there is a way to do this without harshly punishing the student athlete whose family is either 1. Putting them in a better situation to succeed athletically.
2. Putting them in a better situation to succeed academically.

Imagine having a kid with a lot of potential but he/she is in a school that doesn’t take the sport serious at all therefore there is no growth opportunity happening for the kid. Then add the academics and the behavioral environment within the school. But we are going to severely punish the family for wanting more for their kid?

I am not saying that’s the case for every one of these transfers but it has to be the case for a lot of them. Matter a fact I know it’s the case for the ones that I know.
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What does any of that have to do with what division the school is in?
 
playboi12 said:
If rather leave it as-is and come back to this board and watch y’all whine about it for 3 days straight. 😂 What you gon do?Move to Kentucky?
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A D4 public basketball team should not be the best team in the state. Period. Ever. Anywhere. It's like Youngstown State winning the CFB Playoff against Alabama.
 
419Jester said:
I wonder if there is a way to do this without harshly punishing the student athlete whose family is either 1. Putting them in a better situation to succeed athletically.
2. Putting them in a better situation to succeed academically.

Imagine having a kid with a lot of potential but he/she is in a school that doesn’t take the sport serious at all therefore there is no growth opportunity happening for the kid. Then add the academics and the behavioral environment within the school. But we are going to severely punish the family for wanting more for their kid?

I am not saying that’s the case for every one of these transfers but it has to be the case for a lot of them. Matter a fact I know it’s the case for the ones that I know.
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Have you ever spoken to a parent that does not feel their son has a lot of potential? :)
 
CasualFan24 said:
A D4 public basketball team should not be the best team in the state. Period. Ever. Anywhere. It's like Youngstown State winning the CFB Playoff against Alabama.
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That is not true. It only takes a few good players to be really good in basketball because there is only 5 players on the floor. In fact it's probably the only sport this can happen.
 
Tallone said:
There is a simple solution to all of this. For the sake of this discussion lets divide schools into 2 basic catergories.
Category A "traditional public school where the athletes have to live in that district to be able to play. Category B " parochial/private/prep/open enrollment public/magnet."
If school A and school B have equal facilities and resources and the coaches are comporable, School B has a competetive advantage. It is common sense. School B can get athletes from anywhere, where as school A can only have athletes who live in their district. Currently NY, NJ, CT, MD DC, DE NC, TN, Al, MS, GA, LA and TX just to name a few do not allow category B schools to play in the public school playoffs. They have seperate state tournaments. Category A and B can play each other in the regular season, but play in separate playoffs. Now you do not have to worry about competetive balance. And they have divisions in each category based on enrollment.
In Ohio I would imagine that out of the 800 schools that compete at least 25% would fall into category B, maybe more. Just separate these schools when it comes to the playoffs.
If a school want to recruit or has open enrollment ,fine. They get to play in category B . Just cut though all of the mess.
Just a thought
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I think you would need to further divide the Open Enrollment schools. Adjacent OE and Statewide OE are not even remotely the same thing and would need to be handled appropriately.
 
Bball216 said:
That is not true. It only takes a few good players to be really good in basketball because there is only 5 players on the floor. In fact it's probably the only sport this can happen.
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HAHAHA
It can happen anywhere but nobody complains when a bowler transfers. 🤣
 
spirit454 said:
Have you ever spoken to a parent that does not feel their son has a lot of potential? :)
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😂 😂 That is very true 😂

it’s less about that and more about just putting the kid in a better situation. Some of these schools are god awful and punishing a child severely for not going to the not so good school they are in closest proximity to seems rough. At the end of the day that would only hurt kids who have limited access to schools that can provide a good environment to learn. Yes, Richmond Heights is an Edchoice school but it is a significant upgrade compared to a ton of schools in that general area.

Creating new divisional alignments could possibly be a solution to not punish the kid so much. Depending on the rules of that new division.
 
419Jester said:
😂 😂 That is very true 😂

it’s less about that and more about just putting the kid in a better situation. Some of these schools are god awful and punishing a child severely for not going to the not so good school they are in closest proximity to seems rough. At the end of the day that would only hurt kids who have limited access to schools that can provide a good environment to learn. Yes, Richmond Heights is an Edchoice school but it is a significant upgrade compared to a ton of schools in that general area.

Creating new divisional alignments could possibly be a solution to not punish the kid so much. Depending on the rules of that new division.
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The kid can still go to the better school and get better academics. He could still develop his potential in the better sports program. He just cannot play in the post season his first year there. That's my feeling.
 
spirit454 said:
The kid can still go to the better school and get better academics. He could still develop his potential in the better sports program. He just cannot play in the post season his first year there. That's my feeling.
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I just really don’t like that at all. It doesn’t help the kid at all and high school sports is supposed to be about the kid.

An open division some sort of realignment with different classes or something would help the student athlete in my opinion. I bet you the attendance at those games would be crazy as well. You have the chance of seeing OG vs a Pick Central for a state championship game. Or a Richmond Heights vs a Centerville. If teams could choose to play in it. I’d hope a team like OG would choose to play in the open division if there was one created. They’d have a legit chance to win.
 
419Jester said:
I just really don’t like that at all. It doesn’t help the kid at all and high school sports is supposed to be about the kid.

An open division some sort of realignment with different classes or something would help the student athlete in my opinion. I bet you the attendance at those games would be crazy as well. You have the chance of seeing OG vs a Pick Central for a state championship game. Or a Richmond Heights vs a Centerville. If teams could choose to play in it. I’d hope a team like OG would choose to play in the open division if there was one created. They’d have a legit chance to win.
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What if the kid open enrolls and then the coach cuts him? There are no guarantees in the extra activities. It's all a privilege to play sports, not ever kid gets to be a part. No matter how bad they want to. IMO, the focus should not be on giving the kid anything but more in line with making them work for what they want.
 
419Jester said:
I just really don’t like that at all. It doesn’t help the kid at all and high school sports is supposed to be about the kid.

An open division some sort of realignment with different classes or something would help the student athlete in my opinion. I bet you the attendance at those games would be crazy as well. You have the chance of seeing OG vs a Pick Central for a state championship game. Or a Richmond Heights vs a Centerville. If teams could choose to play in it. I’d hope a team like OG would choose to play in the open division if there was one created. They’d have a legit chance to win.
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What about all the kids on every other D4 team that all grew up and went to those small schools their entire lives? It's not about the couple kids on the team that is cheating within the rules.....it's about every other kid.

If there was no penalty on the player for transferring, it would be open season just like to see in college right now. The penalty on the player is an absolute must have in order to regulate it. IF it's really about getting the kid in a better situation, having to sit for the post season won't matter.
 
CasualFan24 said:
What about all the kids on every other D4 team that all grew up and went to those small schools their entire lives? It's not about the couple kids on the team that is cheating within the rules.....it's about every other kid.

If there was no penalty on the player for transferring, it would be open season just like to see in college right now. The penalty on the player is an absolute must have in order to regulate it. IF it's really about getting the kid in a better situation, having to sit for the post season won't matter.
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Yeah man. I hear what you are saying I just don’t like seeing the kids get punished for wanting better. Maybe a better thing to look at is how do we make schools where these kids are leaving more attractive for them to stay.

Not to stray off topic so I think an open division would be a way to solve it. Small D4 schools can stay and compete. Place like Richmond Heights has an option to play in the open division with no penalty for the kid. If an AD and coach think they can compete in the open division let them play in it. There are definitely slippery slopes around doing that and I’m not saying it’s right but it definitely is an interesting idea.
 
spirit454 said:
What if the kid open enrolls and then the coach cuts him? There are no guarantees in the extra activities. It's all a privilege to play sports, not ever kid gets to be a part. No matter how bad they want to. IMO, the focus should not be on giving the kid anything but more in line with making them work for what they want.
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I respect your opinion but I just don’t like punishing kids and families for exercising a choice that puts them in a better situation.
 
I always laugh when someone mentions a kid being punished when talking about rules or restrictions if a kid wants to up and transfer to a district they do not live in. It's not punishment if a kid has to meet requirements to be eligible. Nobody ever says why are we punishing the kid who scored a 15 on his ACT by not letting him in Harvard.
 
419Jester said:
I respect your opinion but I just don’t like punishing kids and families for exercising a choice that puts them in a better situation.
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Punishing??? They are allowed to open enroll almost anywhere they want to. They can always pack up and move to another district. Following rules of eligibility are always going to be required.
 
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