Northwest Ohio Realignment

scbuckeye99

Well-known member
No, there is no designated pacing to an AP course and as I wrote, no particular teaching requirements. AP tests are monitored in-house.. It's not an everyone goes to the local university to take a test as SATs used to be. Anything thought otherwise is just part of the sales program on the part of the high school and on the part of College Board. College Board is huge business as is any text-book or the myriad of SEL programs, classroom and school supplies for sale. Conventions, drinking, smoozing... Like any business.

I'll repeat MY opinion, A school selling they offer x number of AP courses as opposed to x number of Honors courses is just selling the program they think parents want to hear and in a way, saying they are less capable of developing and presenting curriculum taylored to their students (thought the competent teacher will do that anyways).

If there's a choice (AP, Honors, CCP, even regular) choose the teacher, choose the desired course. Taking an AP of no interest in-place of an elective in which a student has an interest and a skill? To each their own choice but "AP" designation means nothing to the University, they already have SATs, ACTs,.. and are starting to put those aside. Universities pride and sell themselves on having their own curriculum (though often they have to teach state), not something purchased out of a box. Why would they value one box curriculum over another?

Performance on boards, leadership, community involvment, demographics and "over-coming" are the path to competitive entrance. If they have a choice, they're going to choose someone who will represent and/or endow the University. They're looking for future performers, not past performers.
Taught AP Euro for a few years

a. There IS a pacing guide.....sorta. Not sure I'd call it a pacing guide but there is definitely a framework for the course and what to teach.
b. College Board will let you teach an AP course for one year before you have to go get your certification
c. My school 8-9 years ago when it was a huge deal to be mentioned in Newsweeks top 1000 high schools (or whatever it was) had a Statue of Liberty policy for AP. Two years in a row I had 3 sections of AP Euro with 35 kids in each section. It was an absolute nightmare to grade 105 DBQ essays in a week. The Newsweek methodology put a premium on how many AP tests were being taken at your respective school with little regard for the pass rate (3 or higher). IMPO Advanced Placement classes need to be limited to those who actually need to be in them and should never be more than 20 kids per section tops!!!!
d. When doing my AP US History certification the course instructor and I got into it over which was better for kids? AP or having a high school teacher get certified as an adjunct college professor and teach the same exact curriculum as the local community college / university so the kid can receive actual real time credit from that partnered CC. Lima Senior does this with the University of Findlay's English Dept. (or at least they use to a few years ago)
e. Buddy of mine who graduated in 1998 got a 5 on the AP Lit Exam his senior year. Bowling Green was only willing to give him ENG 101 (Freshman Comp). He grabbed his folders and binders of all the work he did in his AP Lit class and drove up to BG from Lima to meet with the English Dept chair. Came home with ENG 101 and ENG 102 credits haha. Apparently the AP Lit class at Lima Senior back in the 90s did more work than ENG 101 and 102 at BGSU did combined.

FWIW my professional opinion on AP is divided. I enjoyed / enjoy teaching those courses but I think it's incredibly unfair that kids who take HIST 101 at the University of Toledo only go to class 2-3 times a week, they get a mid-term, a final and probably some research paper to determine their grade while kids taking APUSH base their entire chance of getting college credit on one test on one day. I got a 3 on the APUSH test back in high school. UT gave me HIST 103?? (US History up to Reconstruction). I took HIST 104 my freshman year and it was the easiest thing I ever sat through. Comparing APUSH to a college history survey course is apples to oranges IMO.
 

Nash

Active member
Right. But, as opposed to 50 pages of 1,500 posts, or 66 2/3 pages of 2,000 posts...I wonder if Yappi knows what the longest ever thread is.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Taught AP Euro for a few years

a. There IS a pacing guide.....sorta. Not sure I'd call it a pacing guide but there is definitely a framework for the course and what to teach.
b. College Board will let you teach an AP course for one year before you have to go get your certification
c. My school 8-9 years ago when it was a huge deal to be mentioned in Newsweeks top 1000 high schools (or whatever it was) had a Statue of Liberty policy for AP. Two years in a row I had 3 sections of AP Euro with 35 kids in each section. It was an absolute nightmare to grade 105 DBQ essays in a week. The Newsweek methodology put a premium on how many AP tests were being taken at your respective school with little regard for the pass rate (3 or higher). IMPO Advanced Placement classes need to be limited to those who actually need to be in them and should never be more than 20 kids per section tops!!!!
d. When doing my AP US History certification the course instructor and I got into it over which was better for kids? AP or having a high school teacher get certified as an adjunct college professor and teach the same exact curriculum as the local community college / university so the kid can receive actual real time credit from that partnered CC. Lima Senior does this with the University of Findlay's English Dept. (or at least they use to a few years ago)
e. Buddy of mine who graduated in 1998 got a 5 on the AP Lit Exam his senior year. Bowling Green was only willing to give him ENG 101 (Freshman Comp). He grabbed his folders and binders of all the work he did in his AP Lit class and drove up to BG from Lima to meet with the English Dept chair. Came home with ENG 101 and ENG 102 credits haha. Apparently the AP Lit class at Lima Senior back in the 90s did more work than ENG 101 and 102 at BGSU did combined.

FWIW my professional opinion on AP is divided. I enjoyed / enjoy teaching those courses but I think it's incredibly unfair that kids who take HIST 101 at the University of Toledo only go to class 2-3 times a week, they get a mid-term, a final and probably some research paper to determine their grade while kids taking APUSH base their entire chance of getting college credit on one test on one day. I got a 3 on the APUSH test back in high school. UT gave me HIST 103?? (US History up to Reconstruction). I took HIST 104 my freshman year and it was the easiest thing I ever sat through. Comparing APUSH to a college history survey course is apples to oranges IMO.
Yeah, I'm well familiar.
a. There is a pacing guide. There is no MANDATED pacing. The state also has those. They're called "standards."

At first AP SOLD just that, a "guide." Teachers used their traditional materials. Then they SOLD workbooks, which are not mandated to be used. Teachers still used traditional textbooks or their own materials. Now College Board sells textbooks, which are not mandated to be used. There is nothing else there that any school, public or private wasn't doing before College Board went into business. They sell curriculum materials and a name on a test.

Colleges and Universities already have their triage systems. ACT, SAT, on-site placement tests. Individual standards. They have no need for AP tests to help with placement. If a student scored a one on an AP test and killed their SAT or on-site placement, guess which one the college is going to respect? Reverse the roles and the AP test means nothing if the SAT/ACT/on-site placement comes in crap.

b. You do not have to get certified to teach an AP course, even after one year unless that is a VERY recent thing. You CAN get "certified." AP will gladly take a district's money, regardless any certification. They are being paid to provide a test.

d. as scams go, don't get me started on College Credit Plus...

e. If that student had taken the Honors English from that same teacher, the student would have been in the exact same boat. In the beginning, teachers teaching AP had to use their own materials or books from standard textbook companies. Then AP started selling workbooks. Now AP is selling textbooks.

Really, AP is just a test. That's ultimately what they are. A paid for test. A reputable district already has that. Every district, school, private, public already has everything AP supplies except the name on a test. That's why AP is irrelevant to Universities for anything other than a selling point. If a kid got an A in a reputable Honors English class, their boards and placement tests would take care of the rest as far as college credit.
 

Rangerfan

Well-known member
An admitance officer at Duke once told me: "We know what the results of an AP test mean. We don't know what it means to pass an honors course at a random high school or to have a college credit from Southeast Northwestern Community College".
 

ToledoGuy

Active member
Yeah, I'm well familiar.
a. There is a pacing guide. There is no MANDATED pacing. The state also has those. They're called "standards."

At first AP SOLD just that, a "guide." Teachers used their traditional materials. Then they SOLD workbooks, which are not mandated to be used. Teachers still used traditional textbooks or their own materials. Now College Board sells textbooks, which are not mandated to be used. There is nothing else there that any school, public or private wasn't doing before College Board went into business. They sell curriculum materials and a name on a test.

Colleges and Universities already have their triage systems. ACT, SAT, on-site placement tests. Individual standards. They have no need for AP tests to help with placement. If a student scored a one on an AP test and killed their SAT or on-site placement, guess which one the college is going to respect? Reverse the roles and the AP test means nothing if the SAT/ACT/on-site placement comes in crap.

b. You do not have to get certified to teach an AP course, even after one year unless that is a VERY recent thing. You CAN get "certified." AP will gladly take a district's money, regardless any certification. They are being paid to provide a test.

d. as scams go, don't get me started on College Credit Plus...

e. If that student had taken the Honors English from that same teacher, the student would have been in the exact same boat. In the beginning, teachers teaching AP had to use their own materials or books from standard textbook companies. Then AP started selling workbooks. Now AP is selling textbooks.

Really, AP is just a test. That's ultimately what they are. A paid for test. A reputable district already has that. Every district, school, private, public already has everything AP supplies except the name on a test. That's why AP is irrelevant to Universities for anything other than a selling point. If a kid got an A in a reputable Honors English class, their boards and placement tests would take care of the rest as far as college credit.

CCP, the gift that somehow takes from all stakeholders involved lol

As for the rest of your post, just a big fat yes. Also, you think College Board has been scurrying around for any monetization they can so far? Wait until more schools start going test optional...then they're going to be hawking AP test prep courses and even more options here shortly.
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
An admitance officer at Duke once told me: "We know what the results of an AP test mean. We don't know what it means to pass an honors course at a random high school or to have a college credit from Southeast Northwestern Community College".
As I said previously, if a kid dies on the College Board's AP test but does well on CollegeBoard's SAT, You think CB is going to step in and say, University, this kid isn't qualified?

Duke knows what an SAT(also College Board)/ACT and their placement means. They will take an AP 5 (about 20% of those taking) for certain low level course credit. There is no mandate they do that. It's sales. Otherwise, it's worthless to them. The kid can get that credit with their SAT/ACT/placement tests also without ever having taken an "AP" course.

- To teach an AP course you do not need a certification. You do not have to pass a test in order to teach an AP course. You do not need a state certitication in the field in which you teach. You do not need a college degree in the course you teach. You do not need to show a certain success rate in order to keep teaching AP. They say you need a "related" degree but I cannot find anywhere a teacher was forbidden to teach an AP course.

- As far as I can find, a school needs no special qualifications to offer AP. I can't find any school, let alone district that has had their ability to teach AP revoked.

- CollegeBoard has no requirements or standards which must be met by students to take AP. There is no "test-in."

CB has little to no requirements for Teachers, districts or students in order to participate in AP other than pay the money. But we're better if we offer 20 of them? School pays the money, pays for their tests, they get to say they offer "AP." It's product, nothing more.

CollegeBoard for all the fancy official sounding name is just a one billion ("non-profit") business (with new start-ups happening daily to get in on the pork) spreading out money and influence to make money. There is nothing special about an AP curriculum. There is no proven value added advantage. Same kid out of any other course covering the same material would have exactly the same statitics on the AP tests.


There's "cache'" to saying "I teach an AP course" or our school offers 20 AP courses. It's kool-aid, nothing more.
 
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scbuckeye99

Well-known member
Yeah, I'm well familiar.
a. There is a pacing guide. There is no MANDATED pacing. The state also has those. They're called "standards."

At first AP SOLD just that, a "guide." Teachers used their traditional materials. Then they SOLD workbooks, which are not mandated to be used. Teachers still used traditional textbooks or their own materials. Now College Board sells textbooks, which are not mandated to be used. There is nothing else there that any school, public or private wasn't doing before College Board went into business. They sell curriculum materials and a name on a test.

Colleges and Universities already have their triage systems. ACT, SAT, on-site placement tests. Individual standards. They have no need for AP tests to help with placement. If a student scored a one on an AP test and killed their SAT or on-site placement, guess which one the college is going to respect? Reverse the roles and the AP test means nothing if the SAT/ACT/on-site placement comes in crap.

b. You do not have to get certified to teach an AP course, even after one year unless that is a VERY recent thing. You CAN get "certified." AP will gladly take a district's money, regardless any certification. They are being paid to provide a test.

d. as scams go, don't get me started on College Credit Plus...

e. If that student had taken the Honors English from that same teacher, the student would have been in the exact same boat. In the beginning, teachers teaching AP had to use their own materials or books from standard textbook companies. Then AP started selling workbooks. Now AP is selling textbooks.

Really, AP is just a test. That's ultimately what they are. A paid for test. A reputable district already has that. Every district, school, private, public already has everything AP supplies except the name on a test. That's why AP is irrelevant to Universities for anything other than a selling point. If a kid got an A in a reputable Honors English class, their boards and placement tests would take care of the rest as far as college credit.
Depends on your definition of mandated. If you want your kids to have a fighting chance you should probably stick to a year long script of some sort. If you're just gonna wing it as a teacher then so help your students.

Last time I taught AP was 2014 and at that time you HAD to get certified after one year of teaching it.

I took AP Calc senior year, got a A in the class and a ONE on the test haha. In all fairness my DBQ was an analysis of who was better, the Rock or Stone Cold Steve Austin. Had nothing to do with Calculus but I hope the grader / reader enjoyed it. Had to take the math placement test at UT, summer of '99. Scored well enough to you guessed it be enrolled in Calc 1 (essentially AP Calc) lol.

Placement tests are still one day affairs much like AP exams. Had my buddy taken simply honors English he would've had to sit for a placement test for English at BG. Now the question becomes is that placement test easier, harder, about the same? Couldn't tell ya. Because I got a 3 on the AP Lit test senior year I did not have to sit for the English placement test at UT. Had I not taken AP Lit would I have tested out of ENG 101 via the placement test? Maybe?? haha. We'll never know.

Side note: Students in South Carolina do not have to pay to take an AP Test. The state foots the bill. How and why I have no idea. But 20 plus years ago in Ohio I had to shell out 85 bucks a pop just to see if I could get college credit or not.
 

scbuckeye99

Well-known member
Yeah, I'm well familiar.
a. There is a pacing guide. There is no MANDATED pacing. The state also has those. They're called "standards."

At first AP SOLD just that, a "guide." Teachers used their traditional materials. Then they SOLD workbooks, which are not mandated to be used. Teachers still used traditional textbooks or their own materials. Now College Board sells textbooks, which are not mandated to be used. There is nothing else there that any school, public or private wasn't doing before College Board went into business. They sell curriculum materials and a name on a test.

Colleges and Universities already have their triage systems. ACT, SAT, on-site placement tests. Individual standards. They have no need for AP tests to help with placement. If a student scored a one on an AP test and killed their SAT or on-site placement, guess which one the college is going to respect? Reverse the roles and the AP test means nothing if the SAT/ACT/on-site placement comes in crap.

b. You do not have to get certified to teach an AP course, even after one year unless that is a VERY recent thing. You CAN get "certified." AP will gladly take a district's money, regardless any certification. They are being paid to provide a test.

d. as scams go, don't get me started on College Credit Plus...

e. If that student had taken the Honors English from that same teacher, the student would have been in the exact same boat. In the beginning, teachers teaching AP had to use their own materials or books from standard textbook companies. Then AP started selling workbooks. Now AP is selling textbooks.

Really, AP is just a test. That's ultimately what they are. A paid for test. A reputable district already has that. Every district, school, private, public already has everything AP supplies except the name on a test. That's why AP is irrelevant to Universities for anything other than a selling point. If a kid got an A in a reputable Honors English class, their boards and placement tests would take care of the rest as far as college credit.
Colleges and Universities have recently been shying away from ACT / SAT test scores. Wrestler of mine (class of 2020) just finished his freshman year at Davidson College down here. During his recruitment the coaching staff said that even though his ACT was a tick below where a normal student would need to be able to get in, because he had taken only IB and AP classes his junior and senior year the coaching staff was confident they could get him in because the admissions board would be impressed with his course load.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Colleges and Universities have recently been shying away from ACT / SAT test scores. Wrestler of mine (class of 2020) just finished his freshman year at Davidson College down here. During his recruitment the coaching staff said that even though his ACT was a tick below where a normal student would need to be able to get in, because he had taken only IB and AP classes his junior and senior year the coaching staff was confident they could get him in because the admissions board would be impressed with his course load.

Mentioned earlier by ToledoGuy. Standardized tests (which AP is) made for a convenient triage when they were fairly unknown quantities but with all the sample tests available, they're not measuring critical thinking so much as concrete knowledge. Takes us back to priorities I mentioned first post. Universities, particularly highly competitive value the overall activities (extra, course, non-curricular) and leadership. They are looking for students with high potential to expand the brand, regardless what textbook they used in high school.

There are even prep schools offering AP but again, it's more a cave to a major brand. They'll say something like, we offer x number of AP/Advanced courses. Meaning if AP does not have developed materials for a particular course the school is still going to offer an Advance course and it's not going to be of less quality now is it?

CollegeBoard not only doesn't have requirements for those that teach, offer or take their AP courses, they don't have standards for who they ask help develop a curriculum/product. ;)
 

dhsdog06

Well-known member
The GBC stretched from Napoleon in the west to Sandusky in the east and down to Marion in the south. That was clearly never going to work and was a bandaid until something better came up.

The SBC has 22 schools in 5 counties (6 if you figure part of Vermilion is in Lorain County) with road trips from Port Clinton to Willard and Vermilion in the Bay and questions about multiple schools and their long term sustainability playing 11 man football in the River.

The new NLL is pretty tight geographically with only Fremont and Findlay being real outliers but both easy enough trips from Toledo. All 11 have had some kind of history with multiple schools in the conference. If they decide to do crossovers, I doubt anyone will complain, considering there's a lot of games against each other anyway.

It would help if one left or one more came aboard, but I honestly think it can work. Will it? Who knows.
 

dappling

Active member
Taught AP Euro for a few years

a. There IS a pacing guide.....sorta. Not sure I'd call it a pacing guide but there is definitely a framework for the course and what to teach.
b. College Board will let you teach an AP course for one year before you have to go get your certification
c. My school 8-9 years ago when it was a huge deal to be mentioned in Newsweeks top 1000 high schools (or whatever it was) had a Statue of Liberty policy for AP. Two years in a row I had 3 sections of AP Euro with 35 kids in each section. It was an absolute nightmare to grade 105 DBQ essays in a week. The Newsweek methodology put a premium on how many AP tests were being taken at your respective school with little regard for the pass rate (3 or higher). IMPO Advanced Placement classes need to be limited to those who actually need to be in them and should never be more than 20 kids per section tops!!!!
d. When doing my AP US History certification the course instructor and I got into it over which was better for kids? AP or having a high school teacher get certified as an adjunct college professor and teach the same exact curriculum as the local community college / university so the kid can receive actual real time credit from that partnered CC. Lima Senior does this with the University of Findlay's English Dept. (or at least they use to a few years ago)
e. Buddy of mine who graduated in 1998 got a 5 on the AP Lit Exam his senior year. Bowling Green was only willing to give him ENG 101 (Freshman Comp). He grabbed his folders and binders of all the work he did in his AP Lit class and drove up to BG from Lima to meet with the English Dept chair. Came home with ENG 101 and ENG 102 credits haha. Apparently the AP Lit class at Lima Senior back in the 90s did more work than ENG 101 and 102 at BGSU did combined.

FWIW my professional opinion on AP is divided. I enjoyed / enjoy teaching those courses but I think it's incredibly unfair that kids who take HIST 101 at the University of Toledo only go to class 2-3 times a week, they get a mid-term, a final and probably some research paper to determine their grade while kids taking APUSH base their entire chance of getting college credit on one test on one day. I got a 3 on the APUSH test back in high school. UT gave me HIST 103?? (US History up to Reconstruction). I took HIST 104 my freshman year and it was the easiest thing I ever sat through. Comparing APUSH to a college history survey course is apples to oranges IMO.
What is this "AP Certification" that you speak of?

I agree that AP US Government is a lot harder than the freshmen government POL 101 that I took at Kent State University. Not even close. I would much rather see the students in CC+ classes where they are guaranteed college credit as opposed to AP courses where they may or may not receive credit.

The mantra should always be, "what is in the best interests of the students."
 

dappling

Active member
As I said previously, if a kid dies on the College Board's AP test but does well on CollegeBoard's SAT, You think CB is going to step in and say, University, this kid isn't qualified?

Duke knows what an SAT(also College Board)/ACT and their placement means. They will take an AP 5 (about 20% of those taking) for certain low level course credit. There is no mandate they do that. It's sales. Otherwise, it's worthless to them. The kid can get that credit with their SAT/ACT/placement tests also without ever having taken an "AP" course.

- To teach an AP course you do not need a certification. You do not have to pass a test in order to teach an AP course. You do not need a state certitication in the field in which you teach. You do not need a college degree in the course you teach. You do not need to show a certain success rate in order to keep teaching AP. They say you need a "related" degree but I cannot find anywhere a teacher was forbidden to teach an AP course.

- As far as I can find, a school needs no special qualifications to offer AP. I can't find any school, let alone district that has had their ability to teach AP revoked.

- CollegeBoard has no requirements or standards which must be met by students to take AP. There is no "test-in."

CB has little to no requirements for Teachers, districts or students in order to participate in AP other than pay the money. But we're better if we offer 20 of them? School pays the money, pays for their tests, they get to say they offer "AP." It's product, nothing more.

CollegeBoard for all the fancy official sounding name is just a one billion ("non-profit") business (with new start-ups happening daily to get in on the pork) spreading out money and influence to make money. There is nothing special about an AP curriculum. There is no proven value added advantage. Same kid out of any other course covering the same material would have exactly the same statitics on the AP tests.


There's "cache'" to saying "I teach an AP course" or our school offers 20 AP courses. It's kool-aid, nothing more.
Isn't though their an indicator on the ODE report card for each school where schools get graded by the % of their their students that take AP courses or the # of AP courses offered?
 

ToledoGuy

Active member
Isn't though their an indicator on the ODE report card for each school where schools get graded by the % of their their students that take AP courses or the # of AP courses offered?

The "College Readiness" metric is determined by amount of students who take an AP test (notice...not pass), and any student who receives a College Prep level ACT/SAT score. Reasons why many schools just offer every AP exam they can now isn't because they think their students can pass, but simply because it is an easy way to game that grade.
 

doubtme

Well-known member
CCP, the gift that somehow takes from all stakeholders involved lol

As for the rest of your post, just a big fat yes. Also, you think College Board has been scurrying around for any monetization they can so far? Wait until more schools start going test optional...then they're going to be hawking AP test prep courses and even more options here shortly.
its taxpayer funded college and the requirements to qualify from the state are joke. You can even start in 7th grade. It definitely been watered down and not all schools take the credits from other schools for the classes taken in HS, there is a lot to it and people just think free college.

I am not even sold on these CCP courses like some aren't sold on AP. Some of the people teaching them don't give much effort, and some were able to get the certification through some watered down online program (online masters). higher ed is so watered down to make money. Some of these online programs for continuing education are a joke.

Its the McDonaldization of higher ed. Same is happening in healthcare
 
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eastisbest

Well-known member
"certification" I wouldn't be so foolish as to call out something scbuckeye99 recalls as fact but I don't recall any certifcation being "mandatory." Maybe the school or district required their teachers take the AP training course (paid for)? But I do not think CollegeBoard ever mandated anyone taking, let alone passing some requirement before they would let a school call some course "AP," so students could take their test.

A teacher could use any text or resources they wanted and never had to touch anything supplied by CB. There is no mandate to use AP materials when teaching an AP course. BUT if you want to teach to the test......
The "College Readiness" metric is determined by amount of students who take an AP test (notice...not pass), and any student who receives a College Prep level ACT/SAT score. Reasons why many schools just offer every AP exam they can now isn't because they think their students can pass, but simply because it is an easy way to game that grade.

and wanna bet who "lobbied" to get that on the report card? Cha-ching. Not to call out anyone particular but a quick look at some resumes of ODE people in charge of developing curriculum isn't saying to me, state's best and most diversely (or otherwise) experienced. I've no idea how or who had to be known to get those jobs. An independent agency is really needed to spy out these "educational conferences" and see who is buying the drinks.

This just in: AP has put out a new course: "Athletic Conference Development and Alignment." Must of saw a potential new revenue stream.
 
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ToledoGuy

Active member
"certification" I wouldn't be so foolish as to call out something scbuckeye99 recalls as fact but I don't recall any certifcation being "mandatory." Maybe the school or district required their teachers take the AP training course (paid for)? But I do not think CollegeBoard ever mandated anyone taking, let alone passing some requirement before they would let a school call some course "AP," so students could take their test.

A teacher could use any text or resources they wanted and never had to touch anything supplied by CB. There is no mandate to use AP materials when teaching an AP course. BUT if you want to teach to the test......


and wanna bet who "lobbied" to get that on the report card? Cha-ching. Not to call out anyone particular but a quick look at some resumes of ODE people in charge of developing curriculum isn't saying to me, state's best and most diversely (or otherwise) experienced. I've no idea how or who had to be known to get those jobs. An independent agency is really needed to spy out these "educational conferences" and see who is buying the drinks.

This just in: AP has put out a new course: "Athletic Conference Development and Alignment." Must of saw a potential new revenue stream.
Oh man, it isn't even a hard "connect the dots" there...when the former Governor is so wrapped up in College Board, Kaplan, and WhiteHat Education that he'd make a mummy jealous, you know you're going to have some fun educational policies.

CCP is hilarious to me...you force the school districts to pay a student's tuition and books for a college course when there are perfectly good high school and junior high courses they could take (the old PSEO program was only for students who had exhausted their curriculum at the high school level), but you force the college to reduce the tuition cost for the student. Essentially, you're stealing money from BOTH arms of that transaction, you're cutting direct subsidies from the state budget to both of those entities, and then you complain about how much each of those entities are getting into deficit budgeting because of it. There are school districts around here that have basically had a $500,000-$1,000,000 line item dumped on their operating budgets every year from CCP that they can't just get rid of...reason #1 as to why there have been more levies in the past 4 years than really any time before. Just wonderful politicking if I do say so myself.
 
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ToledoGuy

Active member
its taxpayer funded college and the requirements to qualify from the state are joke. You can even start in 7th grade. It definitely been watered down and not all schools take the credits from other schools for the classes taken in HS, there is a lot to it and people just think free college.

I am not even sold on these CCP courses like some aren't sold on AP. Some of the people teaching them don't give much effort, and some were able to get the certification through some watered down online program (online masters). higher ed is so watered down to make money. Some of these online programs for continuing education are a joke.

Its the McDonaldization of higher ed. Same is happening in healthcare
I completely agree with your post, but a minor correction from someone who has to deal with it daily. The bolded is only partially true...all public high schools/school districts are REQUIRED to allow their students to take any "Level 1" course [a course on the Ohio Transfer Assessment Guide, meaning every public institution MUST give credit for the course]. That means students can take a course in Physics or Calculus at Rhodes State Community College that then MUST be taken for credit at Ohio State, Cincinnati, Toledo, etc...two guesses on if that course has similar rigor and provides similar preparation to students moving forward in an engineering curriculum at those schools. Also, the state doesn't dictate entry requirements, each institution dictates ones themselves...so there are some schools who don't even require a placement test/ACT for reference and just have kids walking into courses they aren't prepared for (mostly the struggling community colleges who see it as a quick buck and don't really worry about the student outcomes).

I can't even begin to tell you the amount of people who flunk out of places with an obscene amount of CCP courses from community colleges or taught by high school teachers with "expertise" in the area. Don't get me started on the parents who have their 7th graders taking a College Composition class because they figure it's easier to just get free credit...that C, D, or F on the transcript doesn't go away, so good luck getting into any reputable University with a 2.3 College GPA. That wonderful inflated GPA at High School A means nothing when you have college course grades for reference now...
 

SOD

Member
AP and CCP classes serve a purpose if they are used for the right reason. Say I'm an engineering major......does it really matter if I filled my core class requirements with APUSH that I took in high school or a history class I paid to take in college.....it doesn't matter one bit. Now....I may not want to use my AP Calculus class to get me get out of Cal 1 because I need to make sure my foundation is strong to set me up for my engineering classes. If a student can leverage those HS credits into shortening their time at a university.....that is real value to the student and family.

Liberal arts colleges like many of the higher academic institutions would argue about well rounded scholars....blah blah blah. I can tell you that the US History/Meteorology/American Studies classes had very little impact on me getting my business degree 30 years ago.....and very little value in my career during the time since. So maybe those gen ed classes would be a little more rigorous in a college setting vs high school(the HS classes are a full year vs a semester in college, so who knows) but does it really matter?

My son....who is/was a good student.....is at a school that gives credit for AP classes. He is hopeful to graduate in 3 years due to the being able to take advantage of those classes. He is taking all of the classes every other student takes for his major but is able to skip some of the gen ed classes and saves 20k in the process.....that actually seems like a good situation.
 

dappling

Active member
its taxpayer funded college and the requirements to qualify from the state are joke. You can even start in 7th grade. It definitely been watered down and not all schools take the credits from other schools for the classes taken in HS, there is a lot to it and people just think free college.

I am not even sold on these CCP courses like some aren't sold on AP. Some of the people teaching them don't give much effort, and some were able to get the certification through some watered down online program (online masters). higher ed is so watered down to make money. Some of these online programs for continuing education are a joke.

Its the McDonaldization of higher ed. Same is happening in healthcare
Many CC+ classes have been watered down. My son took a CC+ class..several actually...in history and sociology and there were no papers required. I never took a college class without some sort of paper.
 

BGSUGrad

Active member
I teach a CCP course at my high school through BGSU. We are matched up with a full time facility member who looks over our canvas page, syllabus and makes a classroom visit. I am not an idiot, so I get a thumbs up and teach my class however I want, I am not sure what BGSU would do if the class was designed poorly or I clearly was not holding them to a “college” level of performance.
side note, my HS does only give me a semester to teach the course, as opposed to students taking standard HS history that would get the whole year.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
1) Ohio Transfer Assessment Guide, meaning every public institution MUST give credit for the course]. That means students can take a course in Physics or Calculus at Rhodes State Community College that then MUST be taken for credit at Ohio State, Cincinnati, Toledo, etc...

2) I can't even begin to tell you the amount of people who flunk out of places with an obscene amount of CCP courses from community colleges or taught by high school teachers with "expertise" in the area.
1) Well truth told, State does provide 3 or 4 (~cough~ really tough ~cough~) questions (AHEAD OF TIME) that must be put on the Final Exam to make sure the educations at all state institutions were equitable.

2) Yeah but, that teacher took a mandated training at the university so they must be up to snuff. Lol, I know teachers teaching those courses AT the university and still, the Universities were going to get their cut by making those teachers take the training if they want to qualify to teach that exact same course at the high school.

cha ching.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
I teach a CCP course at my high school through BGSU. We are matched up with a full time facility member who looks over our canvas page, syllabus and makes a classroom visit. I am not an idiot, so I get a thumbs up and teach my class however I want, I am not sure what BGSU would do if the class was designed poorly or I clearly was not holding them to a “college” level of performance.
side note, my HS does only give me a semester to teach the course, as opposed to students taking standard HS history that would get the whole year.

That's not the high school's NOR the University's decision. State decides that, I'm ALMOST sure.

That was the first objections raised, the shorter time. But once the teachers realized they would be done at the same time as the University course, in early May instead of June, freeing them up a period, I bet that decision didn't sting quite so much now did it? :)

A solid high school course is much better than its university equivalent. Also to consider, a kid taking and getting an A in that high school course is probably more advanced than a kid having to take its equivalent at an older spot in their lives.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Many CC+ classes have been watered down. My son took a CC+ class..several actually...in history and sociology and there were no papers required. I never took a college class without some sort of paper.

I had to work extra hours in the kitchen to pay for those papers.
 

eastisbest

Well-known member
Back to football for a second. :D

Not seeing any SJJ or Central kids on the rosters for today's all-star game. No Rogers or Scott either. That's disappointing. Anyhow, looks like the weather is done being stupid, it's going to be a great game as always.
 
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