Mariano Rivera, Roy Halladay, Edgar Martinez and Mike Mussina elected to the HOF
- Thread starter Yappi
- Start date
TroyTrojan05
Well-known member
The hall lost all credibility when Harold Baines got voted in. Mike Mussina?
14Red
Well-known member
The hall of fame voters has sent a clear message that they are not going to put guys linked to steroid use in the hall. And I'm fine with that.
A byproduct of that is that you will see guys who may not be hall of famers get voted in.
Baines was voted in by the veterans committee.
Mike Mussina has 270 wins. That's nothing to sneeze at. He won double digit games in 17 of his 18 major league seasons. The only one he didn't was first season where he appeared to be a mid year call up and only pitched 80 innings. 270 wins, 3.68 ERA, averaged 226 innings over 18 seasons. I'd say he's worthy.
A byproduct of that is that you will see guys who may not be hall of famers get voted in.
Baines was voted in by the veterans committee.
Mike Mussina has 270 wins. That's nothing to sneeze at. He won double digit games in 17 of his 18 major league seasons. The only one he didn't was first season where he appeared to be a mid year call up and only pitched 80 innings. 270 wins, 3.68 ERA, averaged 226 innings over 18 seasons. I'd say he's worthy.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
Veteran's committee entries should have an asterisk now, evidently.
So many earlier players are more deserving of the asterisk entrance in the back door of the Hall.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
Edgar ?
'Roids and Baines have zero connection, and that includes your rationale that the snubs allow Baines in by default. That's just stupid. Apples and oranges, really.
What is relevant is that the younger press members that vote seem to think they are obligated to cast the full four votes, whereas some older guys may have voted for Rivera only this year. THAT is a trend that will actually cheapen the Hall.
I'd be OK if all the guys implicated in the steroid era had to wait for the veterans' committee. I'd actually prefer it. Cheating is cheating, period. Those players shouldn't be regarded on the same level with those that amassed comparable stats honestly. They were part of the game, though, and won titles competing against more honest players. They have to be in the narrative, ultimately. Waiting for the vets' comm would be a good thing.
The vets should vote Pete Rose in, as a player.
wolves82
Well-known member
Why is this a shame? He is the greatest ever to pitch relief, and an obvious first-ballot HOF guy. The only reason we haven't had unanimous elections before is because the voters are prickly a-holes who think that it is a badge of honor to not vote for a great player.
Guys like Williams, Bench, Mays, Aaron, Gibson were not unanimous. Seriously? Voting without a guy like that on your ballot should mean you are too stupid to keep your voting rights. Thankfully a lot of those voters are no longer with us.
What is a shame is that Placido Polanco got 2 votes. Those 2 should lose their votes as well, as clearly they do not take their vote seriously...
Omar
Well-known member
It’s a conundrum. On a stand alone basis, Rivera should be unanimous. However, compared to the Icons that weren’t voted unanimously in, it feels wrong.
Omar
Well-known member
I think it’s a middle finger to the ‘roid users. It’s them saying we’ll take this borderline guy bc he he was pretty good while the rest of you cheated.
Omar
Well-known member
I hate the DH, but respect his ability. Martinez wasn’t just a power hitter, his career avg was .312
Raider6309
Well-known member
He’s the GOAT at his position
14Red
Well-known member
If there was halls of fame for exciting players or defensive players, they'd be locks.
14Red
Well-known member
I think you can only look at the balloting each year in it's own year. YOu can't hold this year's ballot up against everyone else in the hall. It's not a slight, it's not a shame.
Rivera should have been and is a first ballot. He was the premier closer of his time. Hands down.
Now I do feel if you put Mussina in, you have to put in Curt Shilling. Funny how some will complain that guys should go in based on stats alone, nothings else. Shilling is paying for his political stances and his big mouth. And that's a shame.
Rivera should have been and is a first ballot. He was the premier closer of his time. Hands down.
Now I do feel if you put Mussina in, you have to put in Curt Shilling. Funny how some will complain that guys should go in based on stats alone, nothings else. Shilling is paying for his political stances and his big mouth. And that's a shame.
Agreed.
reporter07
New member
Voters can vote for up to 10 players on the ballot and they have been able to for as long as I can remember. It may have always been that way.
reporter07
New member
I think you answered the question with your response. I agree with you on much of this. Mariano should have been unanimously elected, but it's very odd that he is the only one.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
Yet it was common for guys to turn in a ballot casting only one or two votes. Not so much with the younger voters that have moved in as the old school has retired.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
I agree as well.
Maybe the mindset was similar to the gymnastics judges that never awarded a "perfect 10" before Nadia Comeneche(sp?) ? The thought was that they had to "save room at the top" to acknowledge a better performance.
eastside_purple
Well-known member
There were several old school reporters who never voted for any first ballot guy. I guess they all died or just love Rivera. Pretty sure those guys all drove the speed limit in the left lane too.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
Garrett Bush on 92.3 is making an absolute fool of himself talking about his arguments against the exclusion of steroid generation players from the Baseball HoF. His "Barbershop" shows are often unintended comedy, but he's at an extreme today. I never thought he could top his idiotic comments on the Rooney Rule yesterday, but he is delivering today.
Regardless of where one falls on steroids, these guys won't be helped by ol' G-Bush. He started out pretending that the exclusion of Clemens and Bonds was merely about the character of a cheater, and not the characteristics of the cheat itself. He wants Ty Cobb tossed out for being a vile bastard and Mickey Mantle thrown out for being a drunk. Bush must not understand what "PED" stands for, because being a didn't help Cobb's stats and being a drunk surely hurt Mantle's.
This kind of stupidity went on for a while, and then he finally comes around to the "cheaters already in the HoF that used foreign substances". I was thinking he meant spit ballers, vaseline ball thrower, or ball scuffers. Nope.
He wants George Brett thrown out for using pine tar. "You remember the pine tar incident......"
:laugh:
Regardless of where one falls on steroids, these guys won't be helped by ol' G-Bush. He started out pretending that the exclusion of Clemens and Bonds was merely about the character of a cheater, and not the characteristics of the cheat itself. He wants Ty Cobb tossed out for being a vile bastard and Mickey Mantle thrown out for being a drunk. Bush must not understand what "PED" stands for, because being a didn't help Cobb's stats and being a drunk surely hurt Mantle's.
This kind of stupidity went on for a while, and then he finally comes around to the "cheaters already in the HoF that used foreign substances". I was thinking he meant spit ballers, vaseline ball thrower, or ball scuffers. Nope.
He wants George Brett thrown out for using pine tar. "You remember the pine tar incident......"
:laugh:
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
Not to me, or G-Bush for that matter. Makes sense though, if he was drinking himself into oblivion the night before.
cabezadecaballo
Well-known member
You could drink cocaine in the form of Coca-Cola at one time, too.
If they did amphetamines when it was illegal to do so, I guess they should have been punished.
I can't imagine trying to wait back on a curve if I was all gakked up, though. Sounds like a ground out to third for me :dang:
'Roids sure could have done a lot for my warning track power, though. And the HGH to stop the effects of an athlete's natural aging would have been nice...
I am sure the PEDs used now a days are better and i dont think amphetamines would be the best performance enhancer for strength in baseball. However the mental affects would certainly affect hitting bc of the concentration and cognitive skills operating at a higher kevel. There actually is some interesting research on what it does to the muscle. It actually helps fatigue bc of the higher oxidative capacity of the muscle. It is thought/debated (can never really be truly proven) that it is similar to clenbuterol in that it increases/creates different muscle fiber types
Clenbuterol (most commonly used for breathing/airway) (at higher levels) is thought to create/increase Type 2x fibers. For more endurance sports it has a lot of value, wouldn't necessarily be the best for baseball in terms of "muscle or strength" usage.
Clenbuterol is interesting bc when used alone the outcome of the Type2x fibers is better power but worse for endurance. If used alone it is great for quarter horses running shorter distances bc of the power and less emphasis on endurance. However for thoroughbreds going long it doesnt help as much. However i suspect trainers that have used clenbuterol in the past used something else to help the fatigue (like maybe amphetamines) oh the chemistry games!
Clenbuterol (most commonly used for breathing/airway) (at higher levels) is thought to create/increase Type 2x fibers. For more endurance sports it has a lot of value, wouldn't necessarily be the best for baseball in terms of "muscle or strength" usage.
Clenbuterol is interesting bc when used alone the outcome of the Type2x fibers is better power but worse for endurance. If used alone it is great for quarter horses running shorter distances bc of the power and less emphasis on endurance. However for thoroughbreds going long it doesnt help as much. However i suspect trainers that have used clenbuterol in the past used something else to help the fatigue (like maybe amphetamines) oh the chemistry games!
TheJect
Active member
Loved watching Roy Halladay pitch. I'm a Blue Jays fan and he is my favorite. Glad to see him get his due, even tho he doesn't get to see it. Also, a little upset his family decided he wouldn't go in as a Blue Jays. Opting to go without a team. Oh well. To me, he'll always be a Toronto Blue Jay.