Man dies after being put in a chokehold by another rider on New York City subway

CatAlum said:
Thus depriving him of the right to continue to breathe? Would the Marine have known that?
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The marine did not intend to kill Neely or are you disputing that? He acted to protect his fellow passengers from a deranged and clearly dangerous man. In any physical confrontation there is a chance that one of the engaged will suffer serious injuries up to and including death. The bigger crime IMO would have been had these 3 men did nothing in the face of a clear present danger.
 
lotr10 said:
Gee thanks for the 5th grade civics lesson. To bad it no longer applies to much of the United States. All across America Prosecutors and judges are twisting the law in favor of criminals. Kim Gardner comes to mind as just the latest example:

www.krcu.org

Kim Gardner to resign as St. Louis circuit attorney, leaving a legacy of turmoil

Facing a move by the Missouri attorney general to oust her, a contempt of court charge and increasing public and legislative pressure, Gardner announced Thursday that she will resign effective June 1.
www.krcu.org

American justice has become much to selective as your fate will be decided by the ideology of the local law enforcement and Judicial system.
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Broken record here.. we are a nation of political will not laws.
Everyone should acknowledge this and protect themselves accordingly.

You really dont have the rights you think you have.
Politics now dictates the rights you have.. There is no longer a social compact in which we agree that rights are inalienable and given to us by the creator ie God.

If you act in self defense in certain jurisdictions within the USA, you maybe surprise that you are the one who will be incarcerated.
 
Law…ins
lotr10 said:
The marine did not intend to kill Neely or are you disputing that? He acted to protect his fellow passengers from a deranged and clearly dangerous man. In any physical confrontation there is a chance that one of the engaged will suffer serious injuries up to and including death. The bigger crime IMO would have been had these 3 men did nothing in the face of a clear present danger.
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I’ve said a few times that I don’t think he intended to kill him. But there he lies…dead by the hand of another. The legal theory you rely upon to excuse the killing is…
 
cabezadecaballo said:
No, if he actually was trying to choke him out, he would have choked him out in a minute. 24 yo Green Beret. Get real, and punch yourself.

He was trying to restrain a loon. A loon that should have been in jail for unprovokedly punching a 67 yo woman in the face and sending her to the hospital, but the a-hole that will prosecute Penny freed the loon that died at Penny's hand, and unleashed him on the public once again - for the 40th time.

You're being Marxism's bitch. You should stop it, sherm.
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Take a deep breath. Lol.
 
CatAlum said:
one of the reasons this turd-burglar always references murder stats is that they tend to be reliable.

As for stats I would accept…try me. Conservative sources for urban crime data…overwhelm me. Of course, one of my criticisms of righty media and their “horrific crime of the day“ reporting is that data and context tends to lessen the horror…remember all of those stories about the dramatic reduction in crime on Fox between 1990 and 2018? No, I don’t remember them either.
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Stop being purposefully obtuse. Honest urban crime stats no longer exist. By design.
 
cabezadecaballo said:
Face recog would likely put the two men on the train together multiple times, and therefore a known quantity to Penny. The loon should still be alive. The world is probably better without him in it.

Involuntary manslaughter is obvious. Details should guide sentencing for the likely conviction, if properly charged.

That said, if AOC et al can get enough traction, Bragg may even over-charge in hopes of a publicly inflammatory defeat and predictable headlines of said planned over-reach. This is creating an intentional national drama, being played out on a stage with local control.
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I’d like to see AOC ride these trains with no protection.
 
Omar said:
Gee, I wonder why commuters are on edge

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654208557259149316
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This should put to rest that the marine and others weren't in fear for their life. Ask yourself why EVERY person moves away from the crazy guy. Do you really think it's because they are afraid of his "crazy" being contagious? No, they are moving away from him in fear of what he might do. No different than moving away from a person pointing a gun at you or brandishing a knife. Every instinct we have is to protect ourselves from a threat.

In a normal society, every person on that train is telling the disrupting person to sit down and shut up. But we have these little bubbles where crazy trumps civilization. These bubbles are safe zones for crazy people and potential traps for rational people.

Maybe the marine acted out because he was a killer. If that is the case, it should become obvious quickly. If not, calling his actions self-defense should be a simple decision in a civil society. No person should be able to terrorize a subway car. Especially if that person has been arrested 40 times and assaulted other people in similar circumstances.

The irony is that the marine is being held to a standard of "he should have known the chokehold was dangerous" but the DAs in New York are given a pass because they weren't expected to know this guy was dangerous...after 40 arrests. They sent this crazy person out into society and expected people to let him continue being crazy.
 
Yappi said:
This should put to rest that the marine and others weren't in fear for their life. Ask yourself why EVERY person moves away from the crazy guy. Do you really think it's because they are afraid of his "crazy" being contagious? No, they are moving away from him in fear of what he might do. No different than moving away from a person pointing a gun at you or brandishing a knife. Every instinct we have is to protect ourselves from a threat.

In a normal society, every person on that train is telling the disrupting person to sit down and shut up. But we have these little bubbles where crazy trumps civilization. These bubbles are safe zones for crazy people and potential traps for rational people.

Maybe the marine acted out because he was a killer. If that is the case, it should become obvious quickly. If not, calling his actions self-defense should be a simple decision in a civil society. No person should be able to terrorize a subway car. Especially if that person has been arrested 40 times and assaulted other people in similar circumstances.

The irony is that the marine is being held to a standard of "he should have known the chokehold was dangerous" but the DAs in New York are given a pass because they weren't expected to know this guy was dangerous...after 40 arrests. They sent this crazy person out into society and expected people to let him continue being crazy.
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Quite a collection of thoughts…

It’s actually a fairly simple legal matter…dead guy; we know the killer; did the things that happened in the seconds/minutes leading up to the choke hold being applied…and the 10-15 minutes that it was applied (including the ongoing determination to continue to apply the choke) amount to a legal excuse for the killing.

Lots of “noise” but it’s not very complicated.

P.S. (apologies to Orin Swift for editing this comment)…

Usually, in a case where self-defense type issues are asserted, a prosecutor’s view is…”tell it to a jury. If they want to cut you loose, fine”. This case, in this community, unless new facts are brought forth, I would absolutely expect the Marine to get indicted.
 
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bigkat said:
only 27 people in the last couple of years have been murdered in the subway .....
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As long it is not you or someone from you family no big deal right? It is only twenty seven murders. Now tell me how many people were robbed attacked, physically hurt but not killed? How many people that were hurt but lived will never return to what they were before the attack? But only twenty seven were murdered.
 
19AL63 said:
As long it is not you or someone from you family no big deal right? It is only twenty seven murders. Now tell me how many people were robbed attacked, physically hurt but not killed? How many people that were hurt but lived will never return to what they were before the attack? But only twenty seven were murdered.
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Read the numbers over time. Oh, never mind…
 
CatAlum said:
Law…ins

I’ve said a few times that I don’t think he intended to kill him. But there he lies…dead by the hand of another. The legal theory you rely upon to excuse the killing is…
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Hey, he was a lifelong f up. Too bad for him.
 
Yappi said:
Do you agree or disagree that his past should be part of the public discussion?
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Public discussion? Sure. As far as judging the behavior of the Marine? Not much. But, he’s a big city street person with serious problems. He acted in accordance with that. Not all that interesting to me. I’m in a big city Downtown every day. Was the Marine out of his element?
 
CatAlum said:
Was the Marine out of his element?
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That is what I am wondering. If he was in my community and did what he did, no problem at all. Acting crazy is not an acceptable part of living in this community and if someone acts like that, they are removed to a proper facility. In a bigger city, they appear to allow this behavior to a much greater degree.

If I were in this marine's shoes, I can see myself acting the same way. I would do what he did to protect myself and others with no intent to injure the person who was acting out in a threatening manner. My goal would be to hold on until the police arrived.

Maybe my fear of the big cities and their hands-off approach to crime would be my own undoing.
 
Yappi said:
That is what I am wondering. If he was in my community and did what he did, no problem at all. Acting crazy is not an acceptable part of living in this community and if someone acts like that, they are removed to a proper facility. In a bigger city, they appear to allow this behavior to a much greater degree.

If I were in this marine's shoes, I can see myself acting the same way. I would do what he did to protect myself and others with no intent to injure the person who was acting out in a threatening manner. My goal would be to hold on until the police arrived.

Maybe my fear of the big cities and their hands-off approach to crime would be my own undoing.
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OK…some thoughts.

I guess the question might be…what is your community? You think it’s a suburb of Akron…I think, maybe, it’s the Akron metro area. Services (homeless shelters, food kitchens), laws (like sex offender registry), drive these people to the city centers. I think you’re kidding yourself about crediting your suburb. Your suburb, through disinterest, pushes these people to the city center. I don’t think our culture is handling dysfunctional people well at all, though I do think there‘s a confluence of opinions/views (on both ends of the political spectrum) that contributes to the problem.

As for “hands off crime” and out of control big cities…are there no crime statistics that you people believe? When I show data that murders in NYC went from 2200 to 275 in 30 years (and similar trends with other serious crime stats), making N.Y. one of America’s safest big cities, it’s clear you all don’t believe those numbers.

As for you thinking you might do the same thing…you want to get involved? OK…do that. Figure out how to do it without killing the unfortunate wretch. Choking him TO DEATH over 15 minutes is not some little “oops”. He was killed because…?
 
psycho_dad said:
We have the right to be homeless and we have the right to be mentally ill. No one is saying someone is blameless. The guy who choked him out is mentally ill as well and it is a cop out and an example of misplaced sympathy to say otherwise. He could not conduct himself in a civilized manner. He caused the death of someone that did not need to be killed. He did not use reasonable force. One guy had 40 bad incidents at least. None of which did he cause the death of someone. The other guy has one real bad incident where he killed someone. He thought he could do the job, but he couldn't. Would you rather be verbally assaulted, physically assaulted or killed?
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This has to be satire right?
 
CatAlum said:
OK…some thoughts.

I guess the question might be…what is your community? You think it’s a suburb of Akron…I think, maybe, it’s the Akron metro area. Services (homeless shelters, food kitchens), laws (like sex offender registry), drive these people to the city centers. I think you’re kidding yourself about crediting your suburb. Your suburb, through disinterest, pushes these people to the city center. I don’t think our culture is handling dysfunctional people well at all, though I do think there‘s a confluence of opinions/views (on both ends of the political spectrum) that contributes to the problem.

As for “hands off crime” and out of control big cities…are there no crime statistics that you people believe? When I show data that murders in NYC went from 2200 to 275 in 30 years (and similar trends with other serious crime stats), making N.Y. one of America’s safest big cities, it’s clear you all don’t believe those numbers.

As for you thinking you might do the same thing…you want to get involved? OK…do that. Figure out how to do it without killing the unfortunate wretch. Choking him TO DEATH over 15 minutes is not some little “oops”. He was killed because…?
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Would you say his choking him was a defensive or offensive maneuver?

I would say lying on your back with the aggressor on top of you is defensive. He loses control, his life may be over. You make it sound like he was a 250 pound man choking out a 120 pound woman while being on top.
 
CatAlum said:
one of the reasons this turd-burglar always references murder stats is that they tend to be reliable.

As for stats I would accept…try me. Conservative sources for urban crime data…overwhelm me. Of course, one of my criticisms of righty media and their “horrific crime of the day“ reporting is that data and context tends to lessen the horror…remember all of those stories about the dramatic reduction in crime on Fox between 1990 and 2018? No, I don’t remember them either.
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They applauded Giulianis record of cleaning up NY every chance they got 🤷‍♂️
 
lotr10 said:
I disagree. Penny should not be charged with a crime because in a just society he did not commit a crime. He was carrying out the act of a good Samaritan. It's unfortunate that Neely died as a result of Penny's actions but Neely's death was a direct result of his threatening actions.

In a society that bends over backwards to protect the rights of criminals, and I believe it is correct to do so, there is a need for the occasional acts of citizen Samaritans who intercede to protect those unable to protect themselves. This is one such case.

BTW and IMO this is relevant Neely did present a clear and present danger to Penny and all the others on that subway care:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1654189209865932820

Neely was wanted for punching a 67 lady in the face and sending her to the hospital. Chew on that for a moment.
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I'm still stuck on "massive injustice".

What injustice exactly? He had no food, water or home through his own life choices.
 
Yorktown said:
Broken record here.. we are a nation of political will not laws.
Everyone should acknowledge this and protect themselves accordingly.

You really dont have the rights you think you have.
Politics now dictates the rights you have.. There is no longer a social compact in which we agree that rights are inalienable and given to us by the creator ie God.

If you act in self defense in certain jurisdictions within the USA, you maybe surprise that you are the one who will be incarcerated.
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Which is why we have an appeals process all the way up to the US Supreme Court.
 
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