JV Team a Dying Tradition ?

One thing I'm noticing across multiple sports is that too many head coaches do not want to work with players that will likely never play a meaningful varsity game. They only want to work with the players that will help them win. IMO, this mindset is coming from travel sports. HS sports are not meant to be this way. Extra-curriculars are an extension of the classroom and if there is space available, any reasonable player should have a spot to play.

As one example, I know of a sport (not baseball) that has 36 travel ball players and the HS is cutting down to around 24 (Varsity/JV). That will leave 12 travel ball players cut and a few rec ball players. Those "extra" players are more than enough to field a JV B team. Schools should always have to field 3 teams if there is enough interest.

I see it in soccer where club coaches take HS jobs and the varsity team becomes an extension of the club. "If you don't play for me in the spring, you're not playing for me in the fall."
 
One thing I'm noticing across multiple sports is that too many head coaches do not want to work with players that will likely never play a meaningful varsity game. They only want to work with the players that will help them win. IMO, this mindset is coming from travel sports. HS sports are not meant to be this way. Extra-curriculars are an extension of the classroom and if there is space available, any reasonable player should have a spot to play.

As one example, I know of a sport (not baseball) that has 36 travel ball players and the HS is cutting down to around 24 (Varsity/JV). That will leave 12 travel ball players cut and a few rec ball players. Those "extra" players are more than enough to field a JV B team. Schools should always have to field 3 teams if there is enough interest.
I'm a big proponent of high school sports, and the other thing you have to calculate in this is cost. YOu have 3 teams, it's more bus rides, more equipment, more coaches to pay, etc. Now like you I feel it's very well worth the money. But we do have to understand that these schools are strapped for money and baseball/ softball is likely non-revenue sports.
 
I'm a big proponent of high school sports, and the other thing you have to calculate in this is cost. YOu have 3 teams, it's more bus rides, more equipment, more coaches to pay, etc. Now like you I feel it's very well worth the money. But we do have to understand that these schools are strapped for money and baseball/ softball is likely non-revenue sports.
I agree to a point. But what I have a problem with is when one sport barely gets enough players to field a varsity sport after the coaches beg players to play and another sport that has huge numbers is turning kids away that have been paying $1000s a year to get better. The school needs to make every effort to field three teams in every sport. Of course, most sports will never need it but it is a slap in the face of the players that work hard all year long and are turned away for supposed financial reasons.

Every school should go into the year expecting to have three teams per sport (hopefully Varsity/JV/Freshmen but two JVs are good too). If a sport comes up short, figure out why and try to correct it. If it is the system is turning players away, then the system needs fixing.
 
I agree to a point. But what I have a problem with is when one sport barely gets enough players to field a varsity sport after the coaches beg players to play and another sport that has huge numbers is turning kids away that have been paying $1000s a year to get better. The school needs to make every effort to field three teams in every sport. Of course, most sports will never need it but it is a slap in the face of the players that work hard all year long and are turned away for supposed financial reasons.

Every school should go into the year expecting to have three teams per sport (hopefully Varsity/JV/Freshmen but two JVs are good too). If a sport comes up short, figure out why and try to correct it. If it is the system is turning players away, then the system needs fixing.
It's not up to the school to justify parents spending thousands of dollars on travel baseball. Having been around it in all the sports, those dollars don't buy playing time at the high school. In fact I think some kids get a false sense of security thinking they are better than some of the other kids in high school that choose not play travel sports. You really see this in volleyball and basketball.
 
It's not up to the school to justify parents spending thousands of dollars on travel baseball. Having been around it in all the sports, those dollars don't buy playing time at the high school. In fact I think some kids get a false sense of security thinking they are better than some of the other kids in high school that choose not play travel sports. You really see this in volleyball and basketball.
Reality always hits when the winter workouts end and the guys who were wrestling and playing basketball show up for practice (at bigger schools, at least).
 
It's not up to the school to justify parents spending thousands of dollars on travel baseball. Having been around it in all the sports, those dollars don't buy playing time at the high school. In fact I think some kids get a false sense of security thinking they are better than some of the other kids in high school that choose not play travel sports. You really see this in volleyball and basketball.
I'm not looking at it that way. The point I was trying to make is that these kids are good. They are actually very good. They work on their game and should easily make a HS team in the particular sport. If a school fails to provide a JV team for qualified players, then that is a failure of the school system. If the school has an excellent sport in a community that is blessed with tremendous depth, that school should be providing at least three teams in that sport.

I look at what Jackson has done in the past. They are arguably one of the best baseball schools in Ohio. I believe they've had two Varsities, two JVs and a Freshmen team. They have enough talent and have provided an outlet for all these kids. In no way could I defend Jackson having only a varsity and JV and cutting kids who could have been varsity starters at a majority of the schools in the state. If you have enough talent, you should have enough teams.

Again, not saying money spent on travel ball earns varsity playing time. What I am saying is that if you have enough qualified talent in your school, only having two teams is a travesty.
 
I'm not looking at it that way. The point I was trying to make is that these kids are good. They are actually very good. They work on their game and should easily make a HS team in the particular sport. If a school fails to provide a JV team for qualified players, then that is a failure of the school system. If the school has an excellent sport in a community that is blessed with tremendous depth, that school should be providing at least three teams in that sport.

I look at what Jackson has done in the past. They are arguably one of the best baseball schools in Ohio. I believe they've had two Varsities, two JVs and a Freshmen team. They have enough talent and have provided an outlet for all these kids. In no way could I defend Jackson having only a varsity and JV and cutting kids who could have been varsity starters at a majority of the schools in the state. If you have enough talent, you should have enough teams.

Again, not saying money spent on travel ball earns varsity playing time. What I am saying is that if you have enough qualified talent in your school, only having two teams is a travesty.
I'm all for more baseball players and teams, all I'm saying is there's more to it than just bodies. I'd say Jackson is the exception rather than the rule, many of these smaller schools are begging kids to play baseball and they only have a varsity team.
 
There are scenarios on both sides of the house in terms of running two teams vs. three teams. Please note the caveat that you have to have the raw numbers to justify running a third team (depending on the sport, that means different things).

One has to have the appropriate number of coaches on staff to run three teams. That third team also has to be able to find games to play, be it peer schools with three levels or some schools that have two levels but their opponents only have one level. There's also transportation and facility issues for that third team, especially in the spring when it becomes a revolving door given all the postponements and cancellations.

For a bigger school, running a third team is going to better serve your athlete population, generally speaking.
 
7th Grade!! I wish they waited that long. These basketball programs are doing that in 3rd and 4th grade now. And the ones that don’t put together “elite teams” or that make thier “elite players” slum it in a “rec league” with thier friends and classmates who did not mature early or hire a private coach are chastised for not being competitive enough. It’s sad. Baseball is doing much the same.
For basketball, I feel like this is one place my school has really figured this out. There is a "developmental" league that is completely in house. So if there are enough kids for 4 teams of 3rd graders then there are 4 teams and its really about just learning how to play basketball. In 5th and 6th grade the players are able to try out for a county league team. They play against other area schools. This is still about learning but also about playing as a team and starting to learn an offensive and defensive system (same general one used for Junior High and High school). Then you have JH and HS.
 
For basketball, I feel like this is one place my school has really figured this out. There is a "developmental" league that is completely in house. So if there are enough kids for 4 teams of 3rd graders then there are 4 teams and its really about just learning how to play basketball. In 5th and 6th grade the players are able to try out for a county league team. They play against other area schools. This is still about learning but also about playing as a team and starting to learn an offensive and defensive system (same general one used for Junior High and High school). Then you have JH and HS.

How does that translate to the varsity level? Is internal development enough for the HS teams to be competitive?

Schools in our area do something similar with an internal "house league" for 3rd and 4th graders and a 5th/6th program where league schools play each other on Saturday mornings. Each grade level has two games, so schools with enough kids can field two separate teams while some schools will just have one team that plays two games. Our school used to put the best kids in a separate, more competitive league that played on Saturday afternoons, which opened up playing time for everyone in the Saturday morning league.

Cuts start happening in 7th Grade.

Our HS has been competitive over the years in our own league, but is lucky to get past sectionals once tournament time comes around.
 
How does that translate to the varsity level? Is internal development enough for the HS teams to be competitive?

Schools in our area do something similar with an internal "house league" for 3rd and 4th graders and a 5th/6th program where league schools play each other on Saturday mornings. Each grade level has two games, so schools with enough kids can field two separate teams while some schools will just have one team that plays two games. Our school used to put the best kids in a separate, more competitive league that played on Saturday afternoons, which opened up playing time for everyone in the Saturday morning league.

Cuts start happening in 7th Grade.

Our HS has been competitive over the years in our own league, but is lucky to get past sectionals once tournament time comes around.
It ebbs and flows. We made it to the Regional Semi's 2 years ago and District Finals last year I believe. But we also have years we don't get out of sectionals.
 
Too many teams, too many dads, too little development and growth.

Has been this way for 25 years.

Will only get worse if it does not change or stop.

Winning is no longer the end goal, it is the expectation and only thing that matters.

Sad state of affairs.
 
Too many teams, too many dads, too little development and growth.

Has been this way for 25 years.

Will only get worse if it does not change or stop.

Winning is no longer the end goal, it is the expectation and only thing that matters.

Sad state of affairs.

Is it even "winning?" I see more emphasis on "why isn't my kid playing more?" If the kid is playing - why isn't he pitching/playing SS/batting third?

I coached my son's rec league team when he was playing 12U. A couple of his friends would play with us when their travel team didn't have a game. I would move the travel kids around - have them play first/third/catch. One kid's dad would yell "he's a shortstop" from the bleachers if I played him anywhere else. That kid quit baseball after he wasn't given the varsity starting 2B position as a freshman. He also quit football between the last regular season football game and our first playoff game because he wanted to get a tattoo. It's his senior year now and I don't think he's in any sports at all.

I used the travel kids to pitch an inning each one time when we were playing a team that run-ruled us the first time we played. We lost a close game and I got to read passive-aggressive Facebook posts from their travel coach the following weekend about how he wasn't consulted and was in a bind for his weekend tournament because his players were being wasted in a rec game and couldn't throw because their arms were sore.
 
Is it even "winning?" I see more emphasis on "why isn't my kid playing more?" If the kid is playing - why isn't he pitching/playing SS/batting third?

I coached my son's rec league team when he was playing 12U. A couple of his friends would play with us when their travel team didn't have a game. I would move the travel kids around - have them play first/third/catch. One kid's dad would yell "he's a shortstop" from the bleachers if I played him anywhere else. That kid quit baseball after he wasn't given the varsity starting 2B position as a freshman. He also quit football between the last regular season football game and our first playoff game because he wanted to get a tattoo. It's his senior year now and I don't think he's in any sports at all.

I used the travel kids to pitch an inning each one time when we were playing a team that run-ruled us the first time we played. We lost a close game and I got to read passive-aggressive Facebook posts from their travel coach the following weekend about how he wasn't consulted and was in a bind for his weekend tournament because his players were being wasted in a rec game and couldn't throw because their arms were sore.
Was this coach part of the same organization as you? Did you know the coach? Did he know his players were going to be guesting on your team? If so, did he know they would be pitching as well? Did you let that coach know how much they pitched.

I feel that if you borrow players from another team, you do have some sort of obligation to that team, if not out of respect for that coach, than for the safety of the players arms you're using. He's getting players back that he may have planned on using that he now can't use. Or even worse, he gets them back and pitches them under the idea that they are fresh, yet they actually have 40 pitches on their arm from the day before.
 
Is it even "winning?" I see more emphasis on "why isn't my kid playing more?" If the kid is playing - why isn't he pitching/playing SS/batting third?

I coached my son's rec league team when he was playing 12U. A couple of his friends would play with us when their travel team didn't have a game. I would move the travel kids around - have them play first/third/catch. One kid's dad would yell "he's a shortstop" from the bleachers if I played him anywhere else. That kid quit baseball after he wasn't given the varsity starting 2B position as a freshman. He also quit football between the last regular season football game and our first playoff game because he wanted to get a tattoo. It's his senior year now and I don't think he's in any sports at all.

I used the travel kids to pitch an inning each one time when we were playing a team that run-ruled us the first time we played. We lost a close game and I got to read passive-aggressive Facebook posts from their travel coach the following weekend about how he wasn't consulted and was in a bind for his weekend tournament because his players were being wasted in a rec game and couldn't throw because their arms were sore.
Valid points here. I coached my son in one of those basketball leagues. 3rd grade. I got it after the first game why one kid wasn't a point guard. Yeah, we won 10-8 but please tell me how little Timmy is the next Jordan. Now, I worked on fundamentals religiously and by the end of the season all kids could effectively run at any position. And then I got how "well that was nice but it took so long and he's probably regressed since last year." Sure there, dad.
 
Valid points here. I coached my son in one of those basketball leagues. 3rd grade. I got it after the first game why one kid wasn't a point guard. Yeah, we won 10-8 but please tell me how little Timmy is the next Jordan. Now, I worked on fundamentals religiously and by the end of the season all kids could effectively run at any position. And then I got how "well that was nice but it took so long and he's probably regressed since last year." Sure there, dad.
That sounds like my experience coaching basketball at the same age.
 
Valid points here. I coached my son in one of those basketball leagues. 3rd grade. I got it after the first game why one kid wasn't a point guard. Yeah, we won 10-8 but please tell me how little Timmy is the next Jordan. Now, I worked on fundamentals religiously and by the end of the season all kids could effectively run at any position. And then I got how "well that was nice but it took so long and he's probably regressed since last year." Sure there, dad.

My son is now a senior...some of his buddies put together a team to play in a local AAU tournament over the summer. Three of the kids are All-League/All-District caliber players who had the weekend off from AAU. The other three kids, including my son, quit playing basketball in junior high. They got one of the kids' older brothers to "coach" them and would build huge leads in the first half then spend the second half feeding the ball to the three non-basketball players. Lots of angry parents in the crowd wondering "what are those guys doing here?"

It was a little surreal watching kids work on euro-steps and step-back threes who were pretty clearly "average" HS players at best. One of the non-basketball players was a 6'5" kid who punted/kicked for his HS. He was a good athlete for his size and was one of the better players I saw there. It just reinforced the notion I've always had that all the AAU/travel ball/skill coaching doesn't supersede being bigger/stronger/faster.
 
My son is now a senior...some of his buddies put together a team to play in a local AAU tournament over the summer. Three of the kids are All-League/All-District caliber players who had the weekend off from AAU. The other three kids, including my son, quit playing basketball in junior high. They got one of the kids' older brothers to "coach" them and would build huge leads in the first half then spend the second half feeding the ball to the three non-basketball players. Lots of angry parents in the crowd wondering "what are those guys doing here?"

It was a little surreal watching kids work on euro-steps and step-back threes who were pretty clearly "average" HS players at best. One of the non-basketball players was a 6'5" kid who punted/kicked for his HS. He was a good athlete for his size and was one of the better players I saw there. It just reinforced the notion I've always had that all the AAU/travel ball/skill coaching doesn't supersede being bigger/stronger/faster.
I know a kid whose parents dropped $3,000 so their kid could play on a solid local AAU. $3,000 so their kid could get a couple of charity minutes each game, supplement the good kids whose parents do not pay, and tell all of their friends that their kid plays AAU for X team.
 
Is it even "winning?" I see more emphasis on "why isn't my kid playing more?" If the kid is playing - why isn't he pitching/playing SS/batting third?

I coached my son's rec league team when he was playing 12U. A couple of his friends would play with us when their travel team didn't have a game. I would move the travel kids around - have them play first/third/catch. One kid's dad would yell "he's a shortstop" from the bleachers if I played him anywhere else. That kid quit baseball after he wasn't given the varsity starting 2B position as a freshman. He also quit football between the last regular season football game and our first playoff game because he wanted to get a tattoo. It's his senior year now and I don't think he's in any sports at all.

I used the travel kids to pitch an inning each one time when we were playing a team that run-ruled us the first time we played. We lost a close game and I got to read passive-aggressive Facebook posts from their travel coach the following weekend about how he wasn't consulted and was in a bind for his weekend tournament because his players were being wasted in a rec game and couldn't throw because their arms were sore.
I have so many stories like this it would make your head spin.

Most times, the kid is a good kid, but the parents absolutely destroy them. And most times it is a dad who never played a lick of anything himself. More often than not, the dads who played at a high level take a step back and let their kids grow on their own.
 
After going through the travel circuit with multiple boys my advice to young parents is steer clear. The boys were good too, played at a high level, but if I had to do it all over again, rather than driving to miserable money maker tournaments every weekend I wish we would have done more camping/fishing/traveling.

I will sometimes ride my bike to the local rec. center and watch some baseball and I can only take 10-15 minutes before I want to puke watching parents and what the game has become. Watching countless parents with an air of elitism because they are too dumb to realize they are not reinventing the wheel gets tougher and tougher to take. Every helicopter dad is a pitching guru and swing doctor and has zero clue that lil' Caleb will not get a college scholarship or play for the Yankees. If I had it my way we'd go back to having sign ups at school and dividing the kids up into the red team, blue team, yellow team, etc. and play about 20-25 games a summer on designated days and times. I rarely get my way. ;)
 
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I have so many stories like this it would make your head spin.

Most times, the kid is a good kid, but the parents absolutely destroy them. And most times it is a dad who never played a lick of anything himself. More often than not, the dads who played at a high level take a step back and let their kids grow on their own.
Agree here - my son plays travel soccer. I know nothing about soccer. And that’s the best part because I can just sit back and enjoy.
 
I have so many stories like this it would make your head spin.

Most times, the kid is a good kid, but the parents absolutely destroy them. And most times it is a dad who never played a lick of anything himself. More often than not, the dads who played at a high level take a step back and let their kids grow on their own.
Brandon Inge’s son played in a tournament in Rossford a couple of years ago. He sat out in CF by himself.

One of Mike Ilitch’s grandsons was in a tournament in Oregon. His dad “coached” the team (i.e. sponsored the team and made out the lineup). Dad didn’t like that we provided only four new balls each game and sent his son to the car to bring a box of balls with the tournament sponsor’s stamp on them.
 
Let's face it. Well over half of the coaches do it to protect their kid.

In regards to Brandon Inge, I like to sit as far away from everyone as possible, regardless of the sport. I have gotten a reputation as being anti-social, aloof, elitist, etc.

Real reason: can't stand being around out of control parents!
 
Let's face it. Well over half of the coaches do it to protect their kid.

In regards to Brandon Inge, I like to sit as far away from everyone as possible, regardless of the sport. I have gotten a reputation as being anti-social, aloof, elitist, etc.

Real reason: can't stand being around out of control parents!
I always sat in the outfield. Most parents who "get it" stay away and enjoy the game.
 
Let's face it. Well over half of the coaches do it to protect their kid.

In regards to Brandon Inge, I like to sit as far away from everyone as possible, regardless of the sport. I have gotten a reputation as being anti-social, aloof, elitist, etc.

Real reason: can't stand being around out of control parents!
I do the same thing but it is because I like to drink by myself and don't want to share! :sneaky:
 
Let's face it. Well over half of the coaches do it to protect their kid.

In regards to Brandon Inge, I like to sit as far away from everyone as possible, regardless of the sport. I have gotten a reputation as being anti-social, aloof, elitist, etc.

Real reason: can't stand being around out of control parents!
I do the same thing and my son is 7 and playing coach pitch! :ROFLMAO:
 
Is it even "winning?" I see more emphasis on "why isn't my kid playing more?" If the kid is playing - why isn't he pitching/playing SS/batting third?

I coached my son's rec league team when he was playing 12U. A couple of his friends would play with us when their travel team didn't have a game. I would move the travel kids around - have them play first/third/catch. One kid's dad would yell "he's a shortstop" from the bleachers if I played him anywhere else. That kid quit baseball after he wasn't given the varsity starting 2B position as a freshman. He also quit football between the last regular season football game and our first playoff game because he wanted to get a tattoo. It's his senior year now and I don't think he's in any sports at all.

I used the travel kids to pitch an inning each one time when we were playing a team that run-ruled us the first time we played. We lost a close game and I got to read passive-aggressive Facebook posts from their travel coach the following weekend about how he wasn't consulted and was in a bind for his weekend tournament because his players were being wasted in a rec game and couldn't throw because their arms were sore.
If a baseball player can't pitch one inning without being harmed long term, they need to go run track or play soccer. Good heavens it's time to stop the pitch count madness. We have a bunch of major league pitchers who can't throw more than 5 inings because they are coddled from the time they are 10 years old. If you pitch, you MAY hurt your arm. It was that way 100 years ago, 60 years ago, 40 years ago and 20 years ago. Kids need to throw to build up arm strength. 30-40 pitches is just warming up.
 
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