Ironton Vs. Marion Local In Week 1...Not So Fast

fbrox said:
Take your “L” and move on. Anyone who has paid attention knows MSML has a program that will be celebrated as not just one of the greatest ever in Ohio but also in the nation. Size of the school does not matter, what they have accomplished in last 25 years will be damn near impossible to even get in the conversation with.
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My L??? 😂 This has nothing to do with me. Greatest in the nation??? 😂 Come on maybe ONE of the greatest in the state which I said before, but others to consider and also different Eras quite a few which MSML wasn't a part of.Yeah 😂 MSML is THE best program in state history except for the fact they have never beat any of the best programs in state history makes sense.The best ever only if you erase past History. I promise you the Massillon teams of the early years were more dominant by far. They also dominated MUCH better competition.If Marion wants to be considered one of the best ever in the nation they would have to step up to the plate and play one of them national powers. You know instead of beating up on the same old teams that don't have a chance actually challenge themselves.I'm not saying play a D1 or D2 power either. Start by calling up John Curtis who is equal in size and see how they do.
 
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TigerBeast78 said:
My L??? 😂 This has nothing to do with me. Greatest in the nation??? 😂 Come on maybe ONE of the greatest in the state which I said before, but others to consider and also different Eras quite a few which MSML wasn't a part of.Yeah 😂 MSML is THE best program in state history except for the fact they have never beat any of the best programs in state history makes sense.The best ever only if you erase past History. I promise you the Massillon teams of the early years were more dominant by far. They also dominated MUCH better competition.If Marion wants to be considered one of the best ever in the nation they would have to step up to the plate and play one of them national powers. You know instead of beating up on the same old teams that don't have a chance actually challenge themselves.I'm not saying play a D1 or D2 power either. Start by calling up John Curtis who is equal in size and see how they do.
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Massillon by far is ohio's most storied program IMO and for decades was the Benchmark of what other schools nationwide were striving to achieve. To compete against what were mostly private schools openly recruiting as well as they did is now, looking back, amazing! This discussion is mostly a product of our societies short memory and attention span. We are blessed at MSML in more ways than just a football program and will be remembered for our current success until another program comes along and draws the attention and the same comparisons get pushed out in discussions. Makes for great "Yapping" but at MSML we tend to keep things in context, we'll keep teaching our kids to work hard, play hard, and be good stewards of the gifts God has bestowed upon us. Success will follow.
 
MilkAthletesCorn said:
Massillon by far is ohio's most storied program IMO and for decades was the Benchmark of what other schools nationwide were striving to achieve. To compete against what were mostly private schools openly recruiting as well as they did is now, looking back, amazing! This discussion is mostly a product of our societies short memory and attention span. We are blessed at MSML in more ways than just a football program and will be remembered for our current success until another program comes along and draws the attention and the same comparisons get pushed out in discussions. Makes for great "Yapping" but at MSML we tend to keep things in context, we'll keep teaching our kids to work hard, play hard, and be good stewards of the gifts God has bestowed upon us. Success will follow.
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Definitely don't see someone coming along and over taking MSML recent success any time soon if ever that I'm sure
 
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TigerBeast78 said:
My L??? 😂 This has nothing to do with me. Greatest in the nation??? 😂 Come on maybe ONE of the greatest in the state which I said before, but others to consider and also different Eras quite a few which MSML wasn't a part of.Yeah 😂 MSML is THE best program in state history except for the fact they have never beat any of the best programs in state history makes sense.The best ever only if you erase past History. I promise you the Massillon teams of the early years were more dominant by far. They also dominated MUCH better competition.If Marion wants to be considered one of the best ever in the nation they would have to step up to the plate and play one of them national powers. You know instead of beating up on the same old teams that don't have a chance actually challenge themselves.I'm not saying play a D1 or D2 power either. Start by calling up John Curtis who is equal in size and see how they do.
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Why does ML have to prove themselves as one of the best by playing what you would say is "better competition" by your opinion. however we don't know if they are or not. Everyone kept saying Indy Lutheran was the Indiana version of ML and playing them would be a good game. Then IL proceeded to get their butts kicked by a team ML stomped in the regular season. The fact of the matter is that MLs last 24 years has arguably been the most dominant drubbing of their competition in the history of OH football. For perspective their 15 titles in 24 years is not that far behind Massillons 25ish titles in 100 years. If that doesn't get them in the conversation for being one of the best overall programs in state history then there's really nothing they could do to impress you bigger school fans. Even if they were to play and beat so called "better" competition, yall would still put an asterisk on it. I mean, it is what it is, but come on. Give them a little credit.
 
State2013-1 said:
Why does ML have to prove themselves as one of the best by playing what you would say is "better competition" by your opinion. however we don't know if they are or not. Everyone kept saying Indy Lutheran was the Indiana version of ML and playing them would be a good game. Then IL proceeded to get their butts kicked by a team ML stomped in the regular season. The fact of the matter is that MLs last 24 years has arguably been the most dominant drubbing of their competition in the history of OH football. For perspective their 15 titles in 24 years is not that far behind Massillons 25ish titles in 100 years. If that doesn't get them in the conversation for being one of the best overall programs in state history then there's really nothing they could do to impress you bigger school fans. Even if they were to play and beat so called "better" competition, yall would still put an asterisk on it. I mean, it is what it is, but come on. Give them a little credit.
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Ive said Many times ONE of the best just not THE best. Teams have had successful and solid programs for 130 years compared to MSML 70 year history. Remember it took Massillon 53 years to get the one playoff title but them early teams had 24 titles in around the same time frame as MSML has theirs. So I really can't say MSML has the biggest drubbing of competition in history of Ohio football. Them old Massillon teams would beg the differ. It is what it is but they did play better competition. I give MSML plenty of credit but let's not get carried away one of the best in the nation they are not.That requires beating national competition and maybe they could but they haven't yet so sorry I'm not ready to put their names besides California DeLasalle Hoover Alabama, Odesssa Permian, Miami Southridge etc just yet. For me this goes for the state level too. If MSML wants claim to the best program in state History you have to beat some of the best programs in state history.
 
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TigerBeast78 said:
Ive said Many times ONE of the best just not THE best. Teams have had successful and solid programs for 130 years compared to MSML 70 year history. Remember it took Massillon 53 years to get the one playoff title but them early teams had 24 titles in around the same time frame as MSML has theirs. So I really can't say MSML has the biggest drubbing of competition in history of Ohio football. Them old Massillon teams would beg the differ. It is what it is but they did play better competition. I give MSML plenty of credit but let's not get carried away one of the best in the nation they are not.That requires beating national competition and maybe they could but they haven't yet so sorry I'm not ready to put their names besides California DeLasalle Hoover Alabama, Odesssa Permian, Miami Southridge etc just yet
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Only missing a playoff state title game in 6 out of 24 and 3 of the years missed they were state semifinalists seems like a pretty high percentage and worthy of consideration next to poll titles. I don't think anyone said they are the best, but one of the best. Based on their line of work, the consideration in the conversation seems warranted.
 
State2013-1 said:
Only missing a playoff state title game in 6 out of 24 and 3 of the years missed they were state semifinalists seems like a pretty high percentage and worthy of consideration next to poll titles. I don't think anyone said they are the best, but one of the best. Based on their line of work, the consideration in the conversation seems warranted.
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Yes I consider and count them pole titles because that's how it was done back then and I also count the 9 National championships too. I said MSML is one of the best but no way do I think they have a better program than Massillon did in them early years.
 
TigerBeast78 said:
Yes I consider and count them pole titles because that's how it was done back then and I also count the 9 National championships too. I said MSML is one of the best but no way do I think they have a better program than Massillon did in them early years.
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Them early years were played in leather helmets... not sure how we can even think to compare.
 
TigerBeast78 said:
😂 Very true but still a part of history just like the poll titles. They counted and were awarded the same way the college titles were prior to 1998
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I don't deny it, a title is a title. My argument was more that their percentage of years with a playoff title is comparable to the percentage of poll titles for that timeframe.
 
State2013-1 said:
I don't deny it, a title is a title. My argument was more that their percentage of years with a playoff title is comparable to the percentage of poll titles for that timeframe.
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I mean it's close. Its like 24 titles to 15 not real far apart. The 9 National titles is just the icing. Better Era comparison is maybe is present MSML vs the 90s Iggy program. MSML has more titles but Iggy dominated Ohio big schools and national powers during their reign of terror. Overall best program of the playoff era sorry but have to go with Iggy over MSML.
 
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fbrox said:
Take your “L” and move on. Anyone who has paid attention knows MSML has a program that will be celebrated as not just one of the greatest ever in Ohio but also in the nation. Size of the school does not matter, what they have accomplished in last 25 years will be damn near impossible to even get in the conversation with.
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You're spot on!!
 
State2013-1 said:
I don't deny it, a title is a title. My argument was more that their percentage of years with a playoff title is comparable to the percentage of poll titles for that timeframe.
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Fair point but I would argue the level of competition is vastly different also. Similar to a Mt. Union situation, who also was/is as dominant as any college program in America. But it would be pure folly to translate to an Alabama in recent years and/or NCAA D1 history. Think how ridiculous it would be to do this for track for instance, with times that are seconds slower. It is just 2 different things.

The greatest teams in Ohio, or the country, are the greatest teams in Ohio or the country period, no qualifiers, no disclaimers.

For your size however and w/in your division, or perhaps an even broader "small school" category, yes & yes. (y)
 
TigerBeast78 said:
Yes I consider and count them pole titles because that's how it was done back then and I also count the 9 National championships too. I said MSML is one of the best but no way do I think they have a better program than Massillon did in them early years.
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To say that local can’t claim to be the best because they don’t play the best then turn right around and say you recognize mythical titles (national or state) over teams you DIDN’T play is somewhat hypocritical. The original statement was best program, not best team. Mount Union could arguably be credited as the best program in Ohio, certainly not best team. Everyone knows they get crushed even by MAC schools who would love to claim trophies the way Mount Union does within their division.
 
Neither team or Coach are afraid. It would be quite a matchup but a home and home makes little sense. Too long of a trip for kids to be on a bus and it’s usually very hot Week 1 so it’d be tough to move the Kickoff up. Only feasible way is to play a neutral site game ( if that’s the only matchup both teams could find ) and neutral site games take the coolness of Ironton traveling to the corn fields of NW Ohio or ML traveling to play at Historic Tanks field with the roof over the home side ..
 
Inoutsider said:
To say that local can’t claim to be the best because they don’t play the best then turn right around and say you recognize mythical titles (national or state) over teams you DIDN’T play is somewhat hypocritical. The original statement was best program, not best team. Mount Union could arguably be credited as the best program in Ohio, certainly not best team. Everyone knows they get crushed even by MAC schools who would love to claim trophies the way Mount Union does within their division.
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Titles over teams they didn't play???? You don't realize how it was done back then. You didn't have to play EVERYONE but you had to beat what was considered the best and go undefeated in a ringer of a schedule to get that championship. Until 1998 in college this was the same way it was decided so I guess anything before the last 26 years in college was "Mythical". If there was no CFP now that would be as if OSU beat Bama,Georgia, Texas , Oregon, That they wouldn't be considered the best team around or #1? Sorry But best program I'm going to take a team with the most wins in the state as one of the factors. Oh I know you going to say that's just because some teams were playing football longer than others.... exactly and that's why I said Marion local is cutting still cutting teeth. Too much football they weren't a part of to claim to be THE best ever. There has been other time periods or Eras of football with great programs besides just MSML the last 25 years. The last 25 years yeah they are the best in that Time frame. IMO it takes more than 25 years to be THE best ever in History
 
TigerBeast78 said:
Titles over teams they didn't play???? You don't realize how it was done back then. You didn't have to play EVERYONE but you had to beat what was considered the best and go undefeated in a ringer of a schedule to get that championship. Until 1998 in college this was the same way it was decided so I guess anything before the last 26 years in college was "Mythical". If there was no CFP now that would be as if OSU beat Bama,Georgia, Texas , Oregon, That they wouldn't be considered the best team around or #1? Sorry But best program I'm going to take a team with the most wins in the state as one of the factors. Oh I know you going to say that's just because some teams were playing football longer than others.... exactly and that's why I said Marion local is cutting still cutting teeth. Too much football they weren't a part of to claim to be THE best ever. There has been other time periods or Eras of football with great programs besides just MSML the last 25 years. The last 25 years yeah they are the best in that Time frame. IMO it takes more than 25 years to be THE best ever in History
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How can the AP accurately call a national poll title in high school football? There's a lot more major football schools in high school than college. In OH alone I can name like 15 "major" HS but College we have what maybe 1. How can they stack up OH football against say Texas? The poll titles in state are one thing. How they came up with national titles without playing the games in High School, I just can't compute.
 
TigerBeast78 said:
Titles over teams they didn't play???? You don't realize how it was done back then. You didn't have to play EVERYONE but you had to beat what was considered the best and go undefeated in a ringer of a schedule to get that championship. Until 1998 in college this was the same way it was decided so I guess anything before the last 26 years in college was "Mythical". If there was no CFP now that would be as if OSU beat Bama,Georgia, Texas , Oregon, That they wouldn't be considered the best team around or #1? Sorry But best program I'm going to take a team with the most wins in the state as one of the factors. Oh I know you going to say that's just because some teams were playing football longer than others.... exactly and that's why I said Marion local is cutting still cutting teeth. Too much football they weren't a part of to claim to be THE best ever. There has been other time periods or Eras of football with great programs besides just MSML the last 25 years. The last 25 years yeah they are the best in that Time frame. IMO it takes more than 25 years to be THE best ever in History
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Sorry I have not read all of the prior post in this thread but I believe the question of the best ever in Ohio can be viewed as ‘the best program’ or literally ‘the program with the best teams ever’. I believe there is also a BF1972 and a A1972 component that is extremely difficult to differentiate. The playoffs has allowed us to look at things with certainty - it’s decided on the field. Prior to 1972, it is more of a viewpoint/belief with not as much definitive data.

Here are my thoughts on the best program & best teams before 1972, after 1972 and in Ohio since 1900.

* The best program prior to 1972: Massillon
* The best teams prior to 1972: Massillon

* The best program since 1972: 3 way tie with Moeller, St Ignatius & Marion Local
* The best teams since 1972: St Ignatius (Ignatius run of dominance was a bit longer than Moeller)

* The best program since 1900: Massillon with Steubenville a close 2nd
* The best teams since 1900: Moeller & St Ignatius
 
State2013-1 said:
How can the AP accurately call a national poll title in high school football? There's a lot more major football schools in high school than college. In OH alone I can name like 15 "major" HS but College we have what maybe 1. How can they stack up OH football against say Texas? The poll titles in state are one thing. How they came up with national titles without playing the games in High School, I just can't compute.
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Far less accurate but I imagine they call national national titles for teams that play and beat top national competition at least now anyways
 
WJ-OSU-STEELERS said:
Sorry I have not read all of the prior post in this thread but I believe the question of the best ever in Ohio can be viewed as ‘the best program’ or literally ‘the program with the best teams ever’. I believe there is also a BF1972 and a A1972 component that is extremely difficult to differentiate. The playoffs has allowed us to look at things with certainty - it’s decided on the field. Prior to 1972, it is more of a viewpoint/belief with not as much definitive data.
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If you were looking for time frames, it would be fair to do eras. 1900-1972, 1973-1999, 2000-2024.
Many people could make an argument that football and the teams have changed a lot over the years and would make sense to do ≈25 year increments. (I lumped pre 72 into one era as this has less teams and non played games)
 
ROTFLMAO! Calling MASS1LOLON a storied program? It's 2025 for goodness sakes. We're not in 1960's anymore Toto!
 
LELL said:
ROTFLMAO! Calling MASS1LOLON a storied program? It's 2025 for goodness sakes. We're not in 1960's anymore Toto!
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Might want to look up the definition of storied smart guy. Besides 2nd most wins in the nation, consistently being a state contender, and a championship just a year ago
 
Maxie said:
Don’t pay any attention to that jealous troll from Springfield. He has issues.🤡
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You MASS1LLON fans are the issue. Wanting all the glory for paper championships. Get with the times. Everyone knows the MSML is King in Ohio now. When MASS1LLON matches MSML in on the field titles, the we can start talking. Until then, it's Tim Goodwin and MSML, period!
 
LELL said:
You MASS1LLON fans are the issue. Wanting all the glory for paper championships. Get with the times. Everyone knows the MSML is King in Ohio now. When MASS1LLON matches MSML in on the field titles, the we can start talking. Until then, it's Tim Goodwin and MSML, period!
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Your problem is:
Massillon = 25
Springfield = 0
 
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