Ironton Vs. Marion Local In Week 1...Not So Fast

[TigerBeast78]

The point is not that the Flyers could beat a Massillon or Moeller, they're phenomenal programs. The point is that within their size of school, over a time period longer than the tenure of Coach Goodwin, they have accomplished quite a bit more than credit is being given. MSML should not have to be a "Bigger" school to earn that respect. I don't see a need to degrade communities like Wapakoneta to make a point either. It's still the home town of an American Hero after all. And, If you wish to shorten the name (and we all do ), they prefer Wapak.

No way was it degrading. Did you even read where I said nothing against wap so obviously not degrading them. They are just the common response for Steiner fans when someone says they haven't beat a big school program. No I never said MSML should have to beat a big school team for credit. Someone just said something ridiculous that if they lived in a bigger city they would have more pole titles than Massillon in that time frame and for that they would have to beat teams like Massillon, Moeller and McKinley so that is kind of the point. I promise you MSML wouldn't win pole titles back then by playing the teams they do now.

 

[TigerBeast78]

That is crazy to say Marion would have won ALL the pole titles were they to switch areas of ohio with Massilon. Just preposterous....But yes they would have won more.
Stop being silly.

Your silly if you think MSML would of won more titles than Massillon back in them times. Im not sure they would win any. You realize to win them titles you were playing the best competition and beating the best competition in the state while going undefeated.So basically MSML would have to be beating multiple big school programs a year bigger programs then they have ever faced as of now.

 

[Rack162]

I wouldn't be entirely shocked if we lose our 1st game next year to whoever it may be.

Yes, you would.

 

[State2013-1]

Yes, you would.

Honestly no I wouldn't. This is like a 2014 to 2015 transition. The 2015 team barely eeked out a week one win over McComb

 

[State2013-1]

Your silly if you think MSML would of won more titles than Massillon back in them times. Im not sure they would win any. You realize to win them titles you were playing the best competition and beating the best competition in the state while going undefeated.So basically MSML would have to be beating multiple big school programs a year bigger programs then they have ever faced as of now.

Maybe not more but if west Jefferson and Delphos Jefferson can win a poll title then MSML probably could have also if they played schools outside the MAC

 

[TigerBeast78]

Maybe not more but if west Jefferson and Delphos Jefferson can win a poll title then MSML probably could have also if they played schools outside the MAC

Well I guess his point is moot then about MSML being from a small town not close to no major media as the reason why they didn't win any. Also no 6-7 divisions back then either so MSML would be competing with teams 3X their size for them pole titles. Prolly the equivalent of playing in a D2-D3 tournament now

 

[State2013-1]

Well I guess his point is moot then about MSML being from a small town not close to no major media as the reason why they didn't win any.

Well West Jeff isn't too far from Columbus and Delphos had Lima so I'm assuming that helps. If you haven't been over this way I can say that we really are out in the boonies. Dayton won't cover us until the playoffs when they like to claim "an area team is going to state." Even though we're 1 hour from dayton, 45 minutes from Lima, etc, etc.

 

[TigerBeast78]

Well West Jeff isn't too far from Columbus and Delphos had Lima so I'm assuming that helps. If you haven't been over this way I can say that we really are out in the boonies. Dayton won't cover us until the playoffs when they like to claim "an area team is going to state." Even though we're 1 hour from dayton, 45 minutes from Lima, etc, etc.

No I've never been there I just heard you guys are way out in the cut

 

[TigerBeast78]

Well West Jeff isn't too far from Columbus and Delphos had Lima so I'm assuming that helps. If you haven't been over this way I can say that we really are out in the boonies. Dayton won't cover us until the playoffs when they like to claim "an area team is going to state." Even though we're 1 hour from dayton, 45 minutes from Lima, etc, etc.

I'm also sure MSML has had good team pre 2000s but the 2000s is when most people first heard of MSML and considered them a small school state power. That's the reason I said what I said but it wasn't good enough, someone had to chime in that they were great long before that and they would win all these poll titles blah blah blah. I know Massillon fans can be obnoxious but some of these so called MSML are definitely up their with the best of them. By no way either am I grouping you in with the obnoxious fans, you and several other MSML fans that post frequently on here are very humble and knowledgeable.

 

[State2013-1]

I'm also sure MSML has had good team pre 2000s but the 2000s is when most people first heard of MSML and considered them a small school state power

Correct, I never said differently. I think the claim was that MLs "record" pre 2000 wasn't bad so it can't entirely be disregarded in their entirety of work. Obviously post 2000 is when they've done their most work but if we're looking at overall work, are we going to say someone like Wyoming is higher on the alltime list than ML because they have way more wins and narrowly an overall better winning percentage but lack the state titles and playoff wins. I guess the question is how much weight do you give to certain criteria?

Example: not gonna knock Massillon here because like I said, I dont care but I'm going to compare them to the Browns. The Browns won a crap ton of titles pre NFL (i think even the most all time) and won a ton of games, but haven't won a title since the merger. No one considers the Browns the best NFL team of all time even though their overall work gives them a case. Massillon won obviously the most poll titles of all time but just recently won a playoff title, so obviously we're giving them a lot of credit for work done pre the current system when the Browns don't really get the same thing. So like I said, how do you weigh it all? It's discretionary. For the record I do not think ML is the greatest program of all time. Just want to lay that out there.

 

[MilkAthletesCorn]

No way was it degrading. Did you even read where I said nothing against wap so obviously not degrading them. They are just the common response for Steiner fans when someone says they haven't beat a big school program. No I never said MSML should have to beat a big school team for credit. Someone just said something ridiculous that if they lived in a bigger city they would have more pole titles than Massillon in that time frame and for that they would have to beat teams like Massillon, Moeller and McKinley so that is kind of the point. I promise you MSML wouldn't win pole titles back then by playing the teams they do

You're actually proving our point as to not getting media coverage being a major factor if you've never heard of Wapakoneta (Wapak for short). Majority of sports writers who had votes in those days were NE and SW ohio papers. Not to say any of those teams that won didn't deserve it because as you said your still going undefeated or you're not winning it. But those were the same people writing articles and reading the news wires daily. If a school didn't get coverage then they were not talked about. Nothing is a guarantee, but definitely worked against isolated areas like ours.

 

[TigerBeast78]

Correct, I never said differently. I think the claim was that MLs "record" pre 2000 wasn't bad so it can't entirely be disregarded in their entirety of work. Obviously post 2000 is when they've done their most work but if we're looking at overall work, are we going to say someone like Wyoming is higher on the alltime list than ML because they have way more wins and narrowly an overall better winning percentage but lack the state titles and playoff wins. I guess the question is how much weight do you give to certain criteria?

Example: not gonna knock Massillon here because like I said, I dont care but I'm going to compare them to the Browns. The Browns won a crap ton of titles pre NFL (i think even the most all time) and won a ton of games, but haven't won a title since the merger. No one considers the Browns the best NFL team of all time even though their overall work gives them a case. Massillon won obviously the most poll titles of all time but just recently won a playoff title, so obviously we're giving them a lot of credit for work done pre the current system when the Browns don't really get the same thing. So like I said, how do you weigh it all? It's discretionary. For the record I do not think ML is the greatest program of all time. Just want to lay that out there.

I see what you mean depends on what you count for that category of best. I consider more than just state titles and after the pole area Massillon has continued to be a very successful program just couldn't get the job done till 2023 they still had several playoff appearances and playoff wins. I still would most likely consider MSML ONE of the greatest of all time if not definitely the greatest of the last two decades

 

[TigerBeast78]

You're actually proving our point as to not getting media coverage being a major factor if you've never heard of Wapakoneta (Wapak for short). Majority of sports writers who had votes in those days were NE and SW ohio papers. Not to say any of those teams that won didn't deserve it because as you said your still going undefeated or you're not winning it. But those were the same people writing articles and reading the news wires daily. If a school didn't get coverage then they were not talked about. Nothing is a guarantee, but definitely worked against isolated areas like ours.

Oh I believe it worked against you no doubt ,but even if you were from a more populated area I don't think your schedule at the time would of won you a pole title. Like your fellow fan said maybe if you guys played competition outside of the MAC. Also like I said back then only a couple of division so you would be competing against the body of work from schools 3X bigger that played the bigger schools and won. You would of not just had to go undefeated but also beat the top teams in the state while doing it

 

[State2013-1]

I see what you mean depends on what you count for that category of best. I consider more than just state titles and after the pole area Massillon has continued to be a very successful program just couldn't get the job done till 2023 they still had several playoff appearances and playoff wins. I still would most likely consider MSML ONE of the greatest of all time if not definitely the greatest of the last two decades

And I would have to do more digging into other teams pasts but Massillon is definitely top 3 in my opinion, probably even 1 just for the fact that they've never been bad. Based on my records in front of me, the ML athletic department recognizes record back to 1947. Of the first 20 years of football, ML posted 7 winning seasons. ML didn't start consistently going more than .500 until after 1967 so we would be weighing MLs 1999-2024 very highly against the first 24ish years of the program.

 

[TigerBeast78]

And I would have to do more digging into other teams pasts but Massillon is definitely top 3 in my opinion, probably even 1 just for the fact that they've never been bad. Based on my records in front of me, the ML athletic department recognizes record back to 1947. Of the first 20 years of football, ML posted 7 winning seasons. ML didn't start consistently going more than .500 until after 1967 so we would be weighing MLs 1999-2024 very highly against the first 24ish years of the program.

When I looked it up it said MSML first started in 1955 but I'll take your word for it because I'm sure you did more research. The last two decades nobody can touch MSML

 

[State2013-1]

When I looked it up it said MSML first started in 1955 but I'll take your word for it because I'm sure you did more research. The last two decades nobody can touch MSML

There is an asterisk to what I said. You are correct that Marion Local commenced football in 1955 when the area small school houses were consolidated. However all the area kids all attended high school at St John's high school which was across from Maria Steins catholic church and that buildinf was actually still used for a while after consolidation. They had football also which the OHSAA does not recognize but MSML does. So there's the story to how I got that number and a small history lesson of how ML came to be.

 

[MilkAthletesCorn]

Oh I believe it worked against you no doubt ,but even if you were from a more populated area I don't think your schedule at the time would of won you a pole title. Like your fellow fan said maybe if you guys played competition outside of the MAC. Also like I said back then only a couple of division so you would be competing against the body of work from schools 3X bigger that played the bigger schools and won. You would of not just had to go undefeated but also beat the top teams in the state while doing it

There were actually 3 (A, AA, AAA). I'm old enough to remember years where St. Mary's Memorial and Wapakoneta were having undefeated seasons and were sending kids to OSU and other colleges but couldn't get any votes because they were AAA same as Massillon and the others you named and were not at that caliber at all. I don't remember how the break down was figured then as to how those divisions were figured. I do remember Celina being one of the first area teams to make the original playoff system where I believe only 1 team per region went.

 

[TigerBeast78]

There were actually 3 (A, AA, AAA). I'm old enough to remember years where St. Mary's Memorial and Wapakoneta were having undefeated seasons and were sending kids to OSU and other colleges but couldn't get any votes because they were AAA same as Massillon and the others you named and were not at that caliber at all. I don't remember how the break down was figured then as to how those divisions were figured. I do remember Celina being one of the first area teams to make the original playoff system where I believe only 1 team per region went.

Yes there was 3 in the 70s ,before that I believe just AA and AAA

 

[MilkAthletesCorn]

There is an asterisk to what I said. You are correct that Marion Local commenced football in 1955 when the area small school houses were consolidated. However all the area kids all attended high school at St John's high school which was across from Maria Steins catholic church and that buildinf was actually still used for a while after consolidation. They had football also which the OHSAA does not recognize but MSML does. So there's the story to how I got that number and a small history lesson of how ML came to be.

My father in law told me stories of how the teams on Saturdays were the chickasaw kids and Steiners against Osgood, yorkshire, st. Sabastian and Cassella.

 

[StateChampion2012]

You're actually proving our point as to not getting media coverage being a major factor if you've never heard of Wapakoneta (Wapak for short). Majority of sports writers who had votes in those days were NE and SW ohio papers. Not to say any of those teams that won didn't deserve it because as you said your still going undefeated or you're not winning it. But those were the same people writing articles and reading the news wires daily. If a school didn't get coverage then they were not talked about. Nothing is a guarantee, but definitely worked against isolated areas like ours.

Not to bring it towards us but if we didn't win a Poll title when we went undefeated and won the WBL, nobody here was. Our area was virtually ignored in the poll era.

 

[DDoubleG]

There were actually 3 (A, AA, AAA). I'm old enough to remember years where St. Mary's Memorial and Wapakoneta were having undefeated seasons and were sending kids to OSU and other colleges but couldn't get any votes because they were AAA same as Massillon and the others you named and were not at that caliber at all. I don't remember how the break down was figured then as to how those divisions were figured. I do remember Celina being one of the first area teams to make the original playoff system where I believe only 1 team per region went.

Just to chime in, St. Marys and Wapak were AA, once the state went to three classifications. Yes it was one team per Region.

 

[Stirred not Shaken]

Not to bring it towards us but if we didn't win a Poll title when we went undefeated and won the WBL, nobody here was. Our area was virtually ignored in the poll era.

Only had 3 classifications so very difficult to be ranked however St. Marys was ranked no.1 in AA in 1979. Don't know if St. Marys made the playoffs that year, did in 78 and lost in the semi final game to Brookfield 19 - 14. What any of this has to do with this thread I have no idea.
Edit: I think Versailles may have been ranked no.1 in 1967 in the old UPI poll.

 

[Stirred not Shaken]

Yes there was 3 in the 70s ,before that I believe just AA and AAA

A - AA

 

[MilkAthletesCorn]

A - AA

What's the opinion of other Flyer faithful on Travel distance for our 2 OOC games? Just hard for me to believe we can't find opponents that are within an hour and a half bus ride at the most.

 

[Bruce Monnin]

What's the opinion of other Flyer faithful on Travel distance for our 2 OOC games? Just hard for me to believe we can't find opponents that are within an hour and a half bus ride at the most.

Nothing new for a successful program. Minster was nowhere near the current Marion Local level back in the 1990's, but we had to play Northmont in 1990, Dayton Jefferson in 1991, Milan Edison in 1992, Rossford and Hicksville in 1993, Toledo Libbey in 1994 & 1995, Defiance Tinora in 1996 & 1997, and Monroeville in 1998.

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

Maybe not more but if west Jefferson and Delphos Jefferson can win a poll title then MSML probably could have also if they played schools outside the MAC

West Jefferson won 2 poll titles in 1964 & 1977 and won 2 State Championships in 1976 & 1982. In 1964 it was a guy who created a rating system. In 1977 it was the AP & WJ was the defending State Champ and they eventually lost 9-6 to Crooksville in the playoffs who went on to win the State Title. Poll titles since 1972 are completely meaningless since we now can crown the champ on the field.

Without Goodwin Marion Local appears to have been a good program but no where near what they have become. Once Goodwin leaves, the challenge will be to maintain. One always thinks they will but a decline is far more common. If a Newark Catholic (JD Graham) and St Ignatius (Chuck Kyle) can drop after all time great coach leaves, so to can a Marion Local. Enjoy & appreciate Godwin’s time at ML while you can.

 

[Thavoice]

West Jefferson won 2 poll titles in 1964 & 1977 and won 2 State Championships in 1976 & 1982. In 1964 it was a guy who created a rating system. In 1977 it was the AP & WJ was the defending State Champ and they eventually lost 9-6 to Crooksville in the playoffs who went on to win the State Title. Poll titles since 1972 are completely meaningless since we now can crown the champ on the field.

Without Goodwin Marion Local appears to have been a good program but no where near what they have become. Once Goodwin leaves, the challenge will be to maintain. One always thinks they will but a decline is far more common. If a Newark Catholic (JD Graham) and St Ignatius (Chuck Kyle) can drop after all time great coach leaves, so to can a Marion Local. Enjoy & appreciate Godwin’s time at ML while you can.

Dale Stoin Rating System awarded WJ the championship.

 

[WJ-OSU-STEELERS]

Dale Stoin Rating System awarded WJ the championship.
View attachment 71848

There you go. Before 1972, this was just as good or better than a AP poll championship.

 

[Thavoice]

West Jefferson won 2 poll titles in 1964 & 1977 and won 2 State Championships in 1976 & 1982. In 1964 it was a guy who created a rating system. In 1977 it was the AP & WJ was the defending State Champ and they eventually lost 9-6 to Crooksville in the playoffs who went on to win the State Title. Poll titles since 1972 are completely meaningless since we now can crown the champ on the field.

Without Goodwin Marion Local appears to have been a good program but no where near what they have become. Once Goodwin leaves, the challenge will be to maintain. One always thinks they will but a decline is far more common. If a Newark Catholic (JD Graham) and St Ignatius (Chuck Kyle) can drop after all time great coach leaves, so to can a Marion Local. Enjoy & appreciate Godwin’s time at ML while you can.

And since we are talking of titl3s....does WJ still have the sign up as champs the yr they were voted the top team at the end of the reg season but lost in the playoffs?

 

[State2013-1]

West Jefferson won 2 poll titles in 1964 & 1977 and won 2 State Championships in 1976 & 1982. In 1964 it was a guy who created a rating system. In 1977 it was the AP & WJ was the defending State Champ and they eventually lost 9-6 to Crooksville in the playoffs who went on to win the State Title. Poll titles since 1972 are completely meaningless since we now can crown the champ on the field.

Without Goodwin Marion Local appears to have been a good program but no where near what they have become. Once Goodwin leaves, the challenge will be to maintain. One always thinks they will but a decline is far more common. If a Newark Catholic (JD Graham) and St Ignatius (Chuck Kyle) can drop after all time great coach leaves, so to can a Marion Local. Enjoy & appreciate Godwin’s time at ML while you can.

I'm hopeful. He has noted that he does a lot more delegation now compared to before and the assistants are all younger and for the most part, played underneath him so he can afford to do so. I'm hoping the philosophy and things that have made ML successful stay. Only time will tell.