Holdbacks Baby!!!

Old&Grumpy142

Old&Grumpy142

Well-known member
Anyone else enjoying the twitter exchange between Pursuit Wrestling / OLHS coach and the angry mob twitter wrestling community? Coach on video advising a room full of youth /MS kids to hold back in school and is predictability getting roasted in the comments. To his credit (or naivety) he didn’t back down, rather doubled & tripled down on his comments. Feel however you feel about holdbacks, but it makes me wonder a few things:

  • To what extent is it appropriate for a “Club Coach” to advise kids /parents on their academic path? And what’s the impact /legality/ethics around if said “Club Coach” is affiliated with a High School program both to kids within his district as well as neighboring districts?

  • What’s the upside for this club to very intentionally put this message out there on social media? I follow Pursuit on social media, and I get they are trying to “build a brand”, but this would seem to direct unnecessary negative energy and attention toward the club, and by extension the OLHS school district. I always just assumed those conversations happened in private.

  • Coach references Carter Starocci and the $$ he’s apparently getting to stay at PSU for one more year. I get things are changing, but it remains to be seen how the “increase” in scholarships will impact wrestling and other non rev sports. The truth is that there’s very little $$ in wrestling – scholarship or otherwise. A few big names are cashing in, but the reality is less than 5% of HS wrestlers will wrestle in college – at any level- and a small % of those who do are getting their education paid for via an athletic scholly. IMHO, Coach is setting these kids / parents up for disappointment. If $$ is the ultimate goal wouldn’t a better message to kids to be spending their time/energy focusing on academics - College Prep, high GPA, strong test scores, high character, and then go onto study math, engineering, medicine, law, finance, etc.?
 
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Old&Grumpy142 said:
Anyone else enjoying the twitter exchange between Pursuit Wrestling / OLHS coach and the angry mob twitter wrestling community? Coach on video advising a room full of youth /MS kids to hold back in school and is predictability getting roasted in the comments. To his credit (or naivety) he didn’t back down, rather doubled & tripled down on his comments. Feel however you feel about holdbacks, but it makes me wonder a few things:

  • To what extent is it appropriate for a “Club Coach” to advise kids /parents on their academic path? And what’s the impact /legality/ethics around if said “Club Coach” is affiliated with a High School program both to kids within his district as well as neighboring districts?

  • What’s the upside for this club to very intentionally put this message out there on social media? I follow Pursuit on social media, and I get they are trying to “build a brand”, but this would seem to direct unnecessary negative energy and attention toward the club, and by extension the OLHS school district. I always just assumed those conversations happened in private.

  • Coach references Carter Starocci and the $$ he’s apparently getting to stay at PSU for one more year. I get things are changing, but it remains to be seen how the “increase” in scholarships will impact wrestling and other non rev sports. The truth is that there’s very little $$ in wrestling – scholarship or otherwise. A few big names are cashing in, but the reality is less than 5% of HS wrestlers will wrestle in college – at any level- and a small % of those who do are getting their education paid for via an athletic scholly. IMHO, Coach is setting these kids / parents up for disappointment. If $$ is the ultimate goal wouldn’t a better message to kids to be spending their time/energy focusing on academics - College Prep, high GPA, strong test scores, high character, and then go onto study math, engineering, medicine, law, finance, etc.?
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So, what is his response when academically it makes zero sense, and the child should actually advance quicker because of intelligence level (and possibly skip grades)? My youngest didn't start until later because of being a summer birthday and not being socially ready for school. We could have held him back another year with the rules as they are. He was already bored as is with much of the material he was learning in school and we talked about him skipping a grade in elementary. By the time he got to MS, he was taking HS math and was done with math credits by the time he was a sophomore.

Coaches should stay out of these types of decisions and let parents do what they think is best for their child. 99.999999999% of those kids will never be a Carter Starocci or similar.
 
He’s acting as the coach of his club not as a school rep at that time, he has a right to his own opinion. He was more make a joke of it, yes he supports holding back and was messing with the kids saying u better holdback. The world we live in is so soft people get bent out of shape over another person perspective on something. At the the end of the day it’s his club he can do whatever the hell he wants to. You don’t like it don’t be a member.
 
GrizzlyDad said:
He’s acting as the coach of his club not as a school rep at that time, he has a right to his own opinion. He was more make a joke of it, yes he supports holding back and was messing with the kids saying u better holdback. The world we live in is so soft people get bent out of shape over another person perspective on something. At the the end of the day it’s his club he can do whatever the hell he wants to. You don’t like it don’t be a member.
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Thanks for your perspective. I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I also think that by intentionally boosting this on social media opens the door to scrutiny - which is fair. Yes, he's speaking as a club coach, but affiliation with a High School is a gray area IMHO and opens the door to people asking questions such as- to what extent have current/future OLHS wrestlers been encouraged to "grey shirt", and to what extent has the coach engaged with these athletes during that year? Have any athletes from neighboring districts been encouraged to follow suit & transfer into OLHS?

To be clear, not against holdbacks. We all have the right to make choices n the best interest of our kids. I just always assumed those conversations were done on the down low. If I'm the OLHS AD, at a minimum, I'm telling him to stop posting nonsense.
 
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Brakattack​

Active member​

GoGreen44 said:
Not bashing the act of holding back. I don’t care, let the grown ups wrestle, welcome the competition. I just don’t like the attempt to justify and normalize it, The idea that you are owed a spot on the podium as a freshmen, that you wouldn’t have got without being held back is extremely narcissistic. I also feel the gamesmanship and manipulation of the grade system, to one’s advantage, is not the spirit of high school sports, probably better suited for prep nationals where it’s a level playing field. But once again don’t blame someone for doing something within the rules, just not owning the reality of it.
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I tell all my guys to get held back, an extra year of training gives them a much better shot at that 250k scholarship I mentioned earlier. We arent all as good as your kid bro. Its a normal part of our sport, like somebody said earlier. Just like cutting weight, just like transferring schools. Acting as if eds in d1 isn’t basically a prep school??? We are trying to even the playing field, getting held back is a good start!

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Folks, It's his philosophy. It wasn't a joke. Argue about whether holdbacks are good or bad. But don't argue about it being a joke or being funny.
He continues to stand by what he believes. He's consistent.
 
The endless talk of holdbacks. There is nothing wrong with what this coach is saying, he is concerned for your kid, that is why he is so involved with wrestling. The OHSAA has rules about ages with high school, so if your true senior gets beat by a holdback freshman, all it means is you lost to a sophomore. Bottom line, you got beat by a better kid, holdback or not, so jump on the forums and tell all your friends it wasn't fair
 
College athletes are coming back to school for more money and develop their stock for whatever is next. We have 10yr seniors in college for every sport. Everyone is concerned with the HS landscape isnt focusing on how NIL is changing the College level which trickles down to traditional HS sports. Holdbacks will only increase now in order to get a piece of the NIL money the Sport Programs are allocated. It wont happen over night maybe a 4-8 year cycle.
Dr. Creep said:
As a tax payer, my biggest issue is helping fund an extra year of school for a student that is not needed.
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as a tax payer, my biggest issue is helping fund other things over seas and blaming it on a HS kid for why cost of living is higher.
 
TopBottomNeutralDefer said:
College athletes are coming back to school for more money and develop their stock for whatever is next. We have 10yr seniors in college for every sport. Everyone is concerned with the HS landscape isnt focusing on how NIL is changing the College level which trickles down to traditional HS sports. Holdbacks will only increase now in order to get a piece of the NIL money the Sport Programs are allocated. It wont happen over night maybe a 4-8 year cycle.

as a tax payer, my biggest issue is helping fund other things over seas and blaming it on a HS kid for why cost of living is higher.
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Look at it anyway you want, it is an additional cost to educate student who reclassify for athletics. Is it more than defense spending or foreign wars? No, that is probably going to be found in the politics threads...
 
GrizzlyDad said:
He’s acting as the coach of his club not as a school rep at that time, he has a right to his own opinion. He was more make a joke of it, yes he supports holding back and was messing with the kids saying u better holdback. The world we live in is so soft people get bent out of shape over another person perspective on something. At the the end of the day it’s his club he can do whatever the hell he wants to. You don’t like it don’t be a member.
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Thanks for your perspective. I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I also think that by intentionally boosting this on social media opens the door to scrutiny - which is fair. Yes, he's speaking as a club coach, but affiliation with a High School is a gray area IMHO. To what extent have current/future OLHS wrestlers been encouraged to "grey shirt", and to what extent has the coach engaged with these athletes during that year? Have athletes from neighboring districts been encouraged to follow suit? Any of those happen to transfer into OLHS?

To be clear, not against holdbacks. We all have the right to make choices n the best interest of our kids. I just always assumed those conversations were done on the down low.
Hot_Takes said:
This right here. It cost an average of $15,000 per kid to educate for a year. Reclassifying for athletics is adding cost to the education system.
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Interesting point of view - as a tax payer, how should one feel about contributing $$ for a kid attending your school district, that may not actually live in the district? Or that moves into an apartment in the district- to "establish residency", but doesn't pay property taxes?
 
Old&Grumpy142 said:
Thanks for your perspective. I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I also think that by intentionally boosting this on social media opens the door to scrutiny - which is fair. Yes, he's speaking as a club coach, but affiliation with a High School is a gray area IMHO. To what extent have current/future OLHS wrestlers been encouraged to "grey shirt", and to what extent has the coach engaged with these athletes during that year? Have athletes from neighboring districts been encouraged to follow suit? Any of those happen to transfer into OLHS?

To be clear, not against holdbacks. We all have the right to make choices n the best interest of our kids. I just always assumed those conversations were done on the down low.


Interesting point of view - as a tax payer, how should one feel about contributing $$ for a kid attending your school district, that may not actually live in the district? Or that moves into an apartment in the district- to "establish residency", but doesn't pay property taxes?
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That is determined by the BoE every spring if they allow open enrollment for the following year or not. State dollars follow the student. There are clear guidelines in place for open enrollment.

https://education.ohio.gov/Topics/Ohio-Education-Options/Open-Enrollment/Funding-and-Regulation
 
Old&Grumpy142 said:
Thanks for your perspective. I agree that everyone has a right to their opinion, but I also think that by intentionally boosting this on social media opens the door to scrutiny - which is fair. Yes, he's speaking as a club coach, but affiliation with a High School is a gray area IMHO. To what extent have current/future OLHS wrestlers been encouraged to "grey shirt", and to what extent has the coach engaged with these athletes during that year? Have athletes from neighboring districts been encouraged to follow suit? Any of those happen to transfer into OLHS?

To be clear, not against holdbacks. We all have the right to make choices n the best interest of our kids. I just always assumed those conversations were done on the down low.


Interesting point of view - as a tax payer, how should one feel about contributing $$ for a kid attending your school district, that may not actually live in the district? Or that moves into an apartment in the district- to "establish residency", but doesn't pay property taxes?
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If they get an apartment someone is paying property taxes. More than likely it is included in the cost of rent.
 
Hot_Takes said:
Look at it anyway you want, it is an additional cost to educate student who reclassify for athletics. Is it more than defense spending or foreign wars? No, that is probably going to be found in the politics threads...
Click to expand...
Lets look at it holistically not just nit pick on holdbacks.. Sure I can rattle off good, bad or indifferent and Taxes throughout ODE. I didn't bring up taxes in the first place. However, I wanted to understand what is okay and what is not okay to waste money on based on the comment, ya know a baseline for context. But to solely blame it on holdbacks is a blanket statement without itemizing what in that $15000 cost seems like reckless speculation to me. It cant possible be because damn near every school district is getting a new HS, or to help pay wages that have increased or help fund Levies. I just want to know the bases of that statement. How do holdbacks compared to the other metrics impact the cost of learning more?
 
Brakan is entitled to his opinion, and it's a very informed one. Its not like he isn't speaking from a place of experience, and I dont mean that in a bad way. He's guiding based on his experience and his opinion/philosophy. Nothing wrong with that at all.
This is not an issue I particularly care about personally - its up to the families to make this kind of choice based on their own values. Coaches ultimately are not a part of the real choice/discussion at the end of the day.

I'm only really chiming in because Ive seen an unreal amount of hypocrisy around this.
For example, one assistant coach who I saw on facebook just a few moments ago giving their (negative) opinion on this matter/video had 2 kids on his team just 2 years ago, at a previous school - one who was a double hold back that became a state qualifier, and another holdback who ended up being a state finalist. A few years prior to that, the same school also had another state qualifier who was not only a holdback but also a transfer.

People have short memories I guess. Or, their situation was 'Different', which of course absolves them of any scrutiny that they would then place on all others.

If you dont like it - dont do it. Dont join the club, dont send your kids there, dont follow them on social..etc. The power is yours.
 
TopBottomNeutralDefer said:
Lets look at it holistically not just nit pick on holdbacks.. Sure I can rattle off good, bad or indifferent and Taxes throughout ODE. I didn't bring up taxes in the first place. However, I wanted to understand what is okay and what is not okay to waste money on based on the comment, ya know a baseline for context. But to solely blame it on holdbacks is a blanket statement without itemizing what in that $15000 cost seems like reckless speculation to me. It cant possible be because damn near every school district is getting a new HS, or to help pay wages that have increased or help fund Levies. I just want to know the bases of that statement. How do holdbacks compared to the other metrics impact the cost of learning more?
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I am not discussing why it costs $15,000 per year to educate a student. Thats a separate problem. I am talking current state that when a student reclassifies for athletics it is an additional $15,000 per year cost to the education system. You could be correct, and the count is so low that its nothing more than a rounding error when compared the entire education spending bucket. However, because it is so taboo to discuss holdbacks that the data will more than likely never be collected, and the statistics won't be ran to understand the impact. My issue is that it is taxpayer money being spent for athletic gain and there is no say or oversight on it to begin with. I don't agree with transferring either, but at least it has clear guidelines on how it applies and impacts the schools. Now if you want my complete take I'm good with doing away with most government agencies and reducing waste.
 
Braken, kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in. It may not be the popular opinion but you have the right to your own.
 
I think club wrestling is cheating to those kids that don’t get the opportunity. It’s not fair when parents help their kids get an edge over kids that have parents that are not willing to put the time and money in their kid’s development in a sport to get scholarships. Let’s just focus on that more and maybe the holding back will take care of its self. Or maybe change the rule where you have to be done at and earlier age. Instead of pushing one’s belief of wrong and right unanimously across the board on something that is permitted. I am thankful we have people who will never hold their kids back. But me personally I will take my kids to clubs and hold them back but I’m big on everybody else not doing that. So here to you parents that get your kids out of high school at 18 or even 17 👍
 
Hot_Takes said:
I am not discussing why it costs $15,000 per year to educate a student. Thats a separate problem. I am talking current state that when a student reclassifies for athletics it is an additional $15,000 per year cost to the education system. You could be correct, and the count is so low that its nothing more than a rounding error when compared the entire education spending bucket. However, because it is so taboo to discuss holdbacks that the data will more than likely never be collected, and the statistics won't be ran to understand the impact. My issue is that it is taxpayer money being spent for athletic gain and there is no say or oversight on it to begin with. I don't agree with transferring either, but at least it has clear guidelines on how it applies and impacts the schools. Now if you want my complete take I'm good with doing away with most government agencies and reducing waste.
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"...no say or oversight..."

That about sums up our tax spending situation in general doesn't it?

I'll conceed your point about the additional cost, but I'll say this: of all the stupid things our tax dollars are spent on in the public school system (safe spaces, lgbtq and beyond promotion, etc), hold backs for athletics are the LEAST of my concern.

In fact, I'll go a step farther: if a 13-15 year old kid has the vision, the motivation, and the willingness to make the sacrifice that repeating a grade is in pursuit of athletic excellence and a scholarship at the next level, sign me up for helping to foot the bill on it. That's the kinda thing I'd gladly support!
 
Buckeye454 said:
"...no say or oversight..."

That about sums up our tax spending situation in general doesn't it?

I'll conceed your point about the additional cost, but I'll say this: of all the stupid things our tax dollars are spent on in the public school system (safe spaces, lgbtq and beyond promotion, etc), hold backs for athletics are the LEAST of my concern.

In fact, I'll go a step farther: if a 13-15 year old kid has the vision, the motivation, and the willingness to make the sacrifice that repeating a grade is in pursuit of athletic excellence and a scholarship at the next level, sign me up for helping to foot the bill on it. That's the kinda thing I'd gladly support!
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Like I said earlier it may amount to a rounding error and no big deal, but we will never know because there are no metrics tracking the actual cost. But again it is so taboo that people bury it under the thought there is so much waste anyways why care about that. I care about those other wastes as well, but that's not the topic of the thread.
 
People wonder why wrestling does not grow. It is this stupidity that turns people off. Have a conversation with anyone who is not affiliated with wrestling and ask them about holding your kid back for sports. Brakan’s take is just dumb. Can you imagine if parents put 1/2 as much energy into their kids academics as their wrestling? Your kid would have all the financial aid they could get and you would be setting them up for life. And let’s be real, churning out the best wrestlers is about the parents and not the kids. Don’t believe me? Go watch any youth wrestling tournament and you’re guaranteed to see a dad in a gym or hallway screaming at a 7 year old for losing a match.
 
Crab Ride said:
People wonder why wrestling does not grow. It is this stupidity that turns people off. Have a conversation with anyone who is not affiliated with wrestling and ask them about holding your kid back for sports. Brakan’s take is just dumb. Can you imagine if parents put 1/2 as much energy into their kids academics as their wrestling? Your kid would have all the financial aid they could get and you would be setting them up for life. And let’s be real, churning out the best wrestlers is about the parents and not the kids. Don’t believe me? Go watch any youth wrestling tournament and you’re guaranteed to see a dad in a gym or hallway screaming at a 7 year old for losing a match.
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Maybe it's just been too long since I've looked at financial aide, but I don't remember good grades paying all that well.

A crazy test score? Maybe, but your average middle class white kid whose parents are together isn't getting much money for straight A's...at least not in Ohio.
 
Buckeye454 said:
Maybe it's just been too long since I've looked at financial aide, but I don't remember good grades paying all that well.

A crazy test score? Maybe, but your average middle class white kid whose parents are together isn't getting much money for straight A's...at least not in Ohio.
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It’s been way too long. If a kids academic accolades came close to their athletic one’s there’s tons of money out there.
 
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