Gresham vs Korb SWOWCA Finals HD

McIntosh by major. No one comes close to McIntosh, and I don't want to hear about Evans keeping it close @ Ironman. If that match was on an actual mat instead of some pee wee mat, then that match would have been a major too. Evans was never close to scoring in that match.

As far as the Korb vs Gresham match, that ref needs to understand that no one came to see him. He completely blew that call. The refs in Cincinnati are absolutely horrible. It is not even fun to watch matches because of the inconsistency. A kid can't ride without the fear of a stall call in the first 30 seconds. All it takes is someone to yell, "he's stalling!" then bang.

someone sounds bitter. good thing evans chose the pee wee mat he wrestled mcIntosh on. give me a break. when it was all said and done he lost by a stall call. is mcintosh a man child-absolutely. evans did not push the action therefor he got dinged. end of story. dont leave it in the officials hands. you get a warning, let's wrestle. is it the right call sometimes yes sometimes no. theres only one way to avoid a stall call. Push the action!!!
 
someone sounds bitter. good thing evans chose the pee wee mat he wrestled mcIntosh on. give me a break. when it was all said and done he lost by a stall call. is mcintosh a man child-absolutely. evans did not push the action therefor he got dinged. end of story. dont leave it in the officials hands. you get a warning, let's wrestle. is it the right call sometimes yes sometimes no. theres only one way to avoid a stall call. Push the action!!!

I'm with you craceman. Walk out on the mat and wrestle. If McIntosh is THAT much better than Evans then he should be able to score on him in a cracker jack box. I'm tired of hearing the mat size excuse. We might as well argue that if Evans were as big as McIntosh he would have won. Play the cards you are dealt. Yes, McIntosh is one of if not the best 189s in the country. But give Evans some credit, he is not too far behind.
 
Good Match

Looks like conditioning was a factor in both matches for Gresham. He certainly has the explosion at times to score on good people.
 
Looks like conditioning was a factor in both matches for Gresham. He certainly has the explosion at times to score on good people.

I agree and I wonder how much of that is the room that he is wrestling in and not having people to push him during live wrestling? I did not see any other Goshen wrestlers around his size in the finals. When you go to a school like Moeller and Elder you have lots of other kids in the room to push you wehn you are tired and who can put up a fight when wrestling live. Wish He would have the luxury:(
 
well put THIS GUY, i thought he was hitting him right as he took his reshot. he was on his heels the entire match. i thought it was a good call, just looked bad because it was right when he reshot.
After talking with that ref, that is exactly what happened, he shot at the same time the ref was ready to call stalling. It just happened to be at the wrong time as fans viewed it. That ref is considered to be one of the best in the SW and if you do not believe that, ask the top coaches who they think is in the top 5 of the SW and he will be named by most if not all. One questionable stall call does not erase 8 state tournament assignments in the past 10 years.
 
After talking with that ref, that is exactly what happened, he shot at the same time the ref was ready to call stalling. It just happened to be at the wrong time as fans viewed it. That ref is considered to be one of the best in the SW and if you do not believe that, ask the top coaches who they think is in the top 5 of the SW and he will be named by most if not all. One questionable stall call does not erase 8 state tournament assignments in the past 10 years.

I would be more than confident if THAT ref were on the mat with my son...
 
i think korb clearly pushed the action and was more aggressive, and the call just came at an unfortunate time. i feel like that call was building up in the ref's head over the course of the match, and although the timing was bad he couldve been called for that stalling about 10-15 seconds earlier
 
i think korb clearly pushed the action and was more aggressive, and the call just came at an unfortunate time. i feel like that call was building up in the ref's head over the course of the match, and although the timing was bad he couldve been called for that stalling about 10-15 seconds earlier

tru dat...
 
Maybe Wjjsj or Tank 05 could comment from the ref perspective?

Since I was assisting on this match I have avoided commenting. I will say this, Bangor's post is accurate. Believe it or not referee's do not want to have to make a stall call to decide the match. But they will if stalling is there.

I have been in several conversations with coaches and officials over the years about stalling. Hopefully we'll keep plugging away to all get on the same page.

I make it my mission to call stalling when it is there and not to call it just because. I will add these few points:

*I had a match at the Moeller super duals this year involving two great wrestlers and called stalling near the end of regulation to tie a match. (Not a habit of mine like I said earlier, only when I feel it is there). Every official that I spoke with that saw it said it was definitely the right call and could have been called sooner. Some coaches I spoke with said it was wrong. At the Coaches Classic I happened to be sitting next to the wrestler's dad of whom I called stalling on. He looked me in the eye and said it was a bad call. But he did it with respect and class. I had no problem with it. We had a good conversation from it. I took the feedback and deciphered what I agree with and what I don't. I believe the wrestler and I both learned from it.

*I have been pretty vocal that we want to make sure we call stalling when it is there and not to make it our mission to look for. But I will quote one of the best quote's that I heard from our state interpreter:
"Stalling is boring. People will tell you that you shouldn't call stalling to determine a match. If one wrestler is being aggressive and trying to score and the other is stalling, you are determining the match by letting him stall. Nobody wants to watch stalling." Very true words!

*My dad wrestled many many years ago. He doesn't watch the sport much at all. He happened to see the Korb/Gresham match on tv. He called me up and said that he saw me on tv and he knew the kid would get called for stalling exactly when both instances were called. You're talking about a man whom is unbiased and never watches the sport anymore and can see right away that stalling should be called. Hmmm

*Lastly, I talked with the official who was the lead on that match and he thought maybe he should have called it a little bit earlier and he was man enough to admit it looked bad with the timing. He is one of our best officials and well respected.

I wish both of these stud wrestlers and all wrestlers for that matter a blessed wrestling season!
 
A couple of great moves that were all countered ,it would be nice to see them wrestle if they were totall strangers knowing each other takes their edge off and makes it a little boring too, much headtapping chaz could have played it up a couple times and got a point for getting poked .I think korb wrestled Macintosh in Fargo looked good for a minute
 
Since I was assisting on this match I have avoided commenting. I will say this, Bangor's post is accurate. Believe it or not referee's do not want to have to make a stall call to decide the match. But they will if stalling is there.

I have been in several conversations with coaches and officials over the years about stalling. Hopefully we'll keep plugging away to all get on the same page.

I make it my mission to call stalling when it is there and not to call it just because. I will add these few points:

*I had a match at the Moeller super duals this year involving two great wrestlers and called stalling near the end of regulation to tie a match. (Not a habit of mine like I said earlier, only when I feel it is there). Every official that I spoke with that saw it said it was definitely the right call and could have been called sooner. Some coaches I spoke with said it was wrong. At the Coaches Classic I happened to be sitting next to the wrestler's dad of whom I called stalling on. He looked me in the eye and said it was a bad call. But he did it with respect and class. I had no problem with it. We had a good conversation from it. I took the feedback and deciphered what I agree with and what I don't. I believe the wrestler and I both learned from it.

*I have been pretty vocal that we want to make sure we call stalling when it is there and not to make it our mission to look for. But I will quote one of the best quote's that I heard from our state interpreter:
"Stalling is boring. People will tell you that you shouldn't call stalling to determine a match. If one wrestler is being aggressive and trying to score and the other is stalling, you are determining the match by letting him stall. Nobody wants to watch stalling." Very true words!

*My dad wrestled many many years ago. He doesn't watch the sport much at all. He happened to see the Korb/Gresham match on tv. He called me up and said that he saw me on tv and he knew the kid would get called for stalling exactly when both instances were called. You're talking about a man whom is unbiased and never watches the sport anymore and can see right away that stalling should be called. Hmmm

*Lastly, I talked with the official who was the lead on that match and he thought maybe he should have called it a little bit earlier and he was man enough to admit it looked bad with the timing. He is one of our best officials and well respected.

I wish both of these stud wrestlers and all wrestlers for that matter a blessed wrestling season!

#1 The ref should have hit both of them for stalling in the first period.

#2 After watching the video(and having an unbiased opinion), I believe the stalling calls made were warranted.

#3 Call it like you see it and don't let these coaches in SW Ohio sway you, nor let the ridiculous fans in SW Ohio sway you. Everyone thinks they know more than the ref, everyone thinks the ref has it in for their guy, truth is none of these people have ever been to a referee class a day in their lives. Forget about the score, forget about the clock, just ref as you see it.
 
Well, this has been an interesting discussion and I feel I'm at a crossroad. As an aspiring indie film producer I posted this video as the potential catalyst to post more. I've even considered shlepping my camera to things like say, Dayton Holiday, Moeller/Elder Dual, etc, to shoot some marquee match-ups. In the end this becomes a test of this forum's decorum and I question my own wisdom in posting:

The Combatants I have a lot of respect for both athletes and the people close to them. Did I do them a disservice by posting this video and allowing some to cast aspersions on their intensity or desire to compete? Is this video also allowing some unfair covert study of their skill by potential opponents?

The Referees I have a lot of respect for both refs in this match. Did I do them a disservice by enabling some to cast aspersions on their calls or competence?

Other Teams I would really hate to be banned from schools or events, that I have no emotional involvement in, because these videos are seen as kindling for flame wars that ultimately end up damaging kids and families? Bucksman, is there a forum POV on this?

I'm on the bubble.



Merry Christmas all...
 
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Well, this has been an interesting discussion and I feel I'm at a crossroad. As an aspiring indie film producer I posted this video as the potential catalyst to post more. I've even considered shlepping my camera to things like say, Dayton Holiday, Moeller/Elder Dual, etc, to shoot some marquee match-ups. In the end this becomes a test of this forum's decorum and I question my own wisdom in posting:

The Combatants I have a lot of respect for both athletes and the people close to them. Did I do them a disservice by posting this video and allowing some to cast aspersions on their intensity or desire to compete? Is this video also allowing some unfair covert study of their skill by potential opponents?

The Referees I have a lot of respect for both refs in this match. Did I do them a disservice by enabling some to cast aspersions on their calls or competence?

Other Teams I would really hate to be banned from schools or events that I have no emotional involvement in because these videos are seen as kindling for flame wars that ultimately end up damaging kids and families? Bucksman, is there a forum POV on this?

I'm on the bubble...

I can definitely see where you're coming from on this post.

However, I would say you are fine and to not look to deep into it. Because if it is a bad thing then flowrestling needs to be shut down immediately. I for one don't want to see that since Flo is one of the absolute best things for wrestling that has ever been created. It is definitely one of my favorite sites. Yappi is too despite some knuckleheads on here. Lol

Thank you for the respect too!

Merry Christmas everyone!
 
Well, this has been an interesting discussion and I feel I'm at a crossroad. As an aspiring indie film producer I posted this video as the potential catalyst to post more. I've even considered shlepping my camera to things like say, Dayton Holiday, Moeller/Elder Dual, etc, to shoot some marquee match-ups. In the end this becomes a test of this forum's decorum and I question my own wisdom in posting:

The Combatants I have a lot of respect for both athletes and the people close to them. Did I do them a disservice by posting this video and allowing some to cast aspersions on their intensity or desire to compete? Is this video also allowing some unfair covert study of their skill by potential opponents?

The Referees I have a lot of respect for both refs in this match. Did I do them a disservice by enabling some to cast aspersions on their calls or competence?

Other Teams I would really hate to be banned from schools or events that I have no emotional involvement in because these videos are seen as kindling for flame wars that ultimately end up damaging kids and families? Bucksman, is there a forum POV on this?

I'm on the bubble...

Anyone who questions the intensity and desire of these two wrestlers doesn't know much about either of them...so no, your video doesn't negatively impact either of them.

Aspersions were being cast upon the refs before you posted the video. The aspersion casters are very good at their job without your help. After viewing the video, I feel the same as I did when I saw the match live...I believe it was officiated fairly.

Other teams? Heck, I was standing by the rail and the video cameras were lined up side by side. This wasn't counting the hand held cameras on the floor and in the stands.

Bottom line, I think your video helped by letting some of the people who "heard" about the match decide for themselves. Keep shooting and posting the video...
 
Well, this has been an interesting discussion and I feel I'm at a crossroad. As an aspiring indie film producer I posted this video as the potential catalyst to post more. I've even considered shlepping my camera to things like say, Dayton Holiday, Moeller/Elder Dual, etc, to shoot some marquee match-ups. In the end this becomes a test of this forum's decorum and I question my own wisdom in posting:

The Combatants I have a lot of respect for both athletes and the people close to them. Did I do them a disservice by posting this video and allowing some to cast aspersions on their intensity or desire to compete? Is this video also allowing some unfair covert study of their skill by potential opponents?

The Referees I have a lot of respect for both refs in this match. Did I do them a disservice by enabling some to cast aspersions on their calls or competence?

Other Teams I would really hate to be banned from schools or events, that I have no emotional involvement in, because these videos are seen as kindling for flame wars that ultimately end up damaging kids and families? Bucksman, is there a forum POV on this?

I'm on the bubble.

Merry Christmas all...

On Flo, GOhio, or whatever website, I don't think most wrestlers are flattered by having their matches posted online. Nobody wants to be scouted, but we all know it's going on at various tournaments by dads, covertly.

That being said, I don't think anyone would be able to get too much out of this video.
 
On Flo, GOhio, or whatever website, I don't think most wrestlers are flattered by having their matches posted online. Nobody wants to be scouted, but we all know it's going on at various tournaments by dads, covertly.

That being said, I don't think anyone would be able to get too much out of this video.

I dont agree with this. Its like saying a college football team shouldnt be on TV so they dont get scouted. Or the big ten network shouldnt air college dual meets and so on. I dont care what style of wrestling a wrestler may have if you never wrestled someone before simply watching a tape of them on a particular match isnt going to do a whole lot. Reason being that no one wrestler wrestles a match that is exactly the same. Each match up is different. Each feel and flow of a wrestling match is a little different. That being said I knew wrestler that always said "they know its coming, but they cant stop it!" And this was true.
 
Maybe Wjjsj or Tank 05 could comment from the ref perspective?


Here is an article written by S.W.O.s state rules interpreter Dick Lowenstine that should put things into perspective.

http://www.southshorerefs.com/images/Stalling.pdf


Regarding the so called controversial call and the backlash of the official or officials. Both officials involved are highly regarded and I believe the right call was made. Though the timing made it controversial and like Wjjsj said the official acknowledged that. It was the correct call. Consider it a lesson learned and don't leave it in the hands of the official. Because it will get called!!! As a wrestler its your responsibility to stay busy and attack, to try and secure a takedown. That was not being done. Its amazing how clear cut the decision to make this call is when your looking at it from unbiased eyes. Being biased certainly distorts ones perception!!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!!!!
 
Well, this has been an interesting discussion and I feel I'm at a crossroad. As an aspiring indie film producer I posted this video as the potential catalyst to post more. I've even considered shlepping my camera to things like say, Dayton Holiday, Moeller/Elder Dual, etc, to shoot some marquee match-ups. In the end this becomes a test of this forum's decorum and I question my own wisdom in posting:

The Combatants I have a lot of respect for both athletes and the people close to them. Did I do them a disservice by posting this video and allowing some to cast aspersions on their intensity or desire to compete? Is this video also allowing some unfair covert study of their skill by potential opponents?

The Referees I have a lot of respect for both refs in this match. Did I do them a disservice by enabling some to cast aspersions on their calls or competence?

Other Teams I would really hate to be banned from schools or events, that I have no emotional involvement in, because these videos are seen as kindling for flame wars that ultimately end up damaging kids and families? Bucksman, is there a forum POV on this?

I'm on the bubble.



Merry Christmas all...

Good post, good questions.

Wrestling needs every person who enjoys the sport to contribute whatever they can to the sport. We don't have daily highlights on ESPN, or apparel at nearly every clothing store. We don't have athletes pushing product that kids are gladly overpaying for just because that athlete endorsed it. We hardly ever even have journalists show up to any events to record results for the local paper (most of it is phoned in by the coaches).

I believe most everyone on Yappi contributes to the sport of wrestling in some way or another, but I would estimate that not a very large percentage of us are doing much for the actual marketing of the sport as a whole. While one single match between two great 189's that underwhelmed most viewers doesn't seem like very good PR, I do believe that having as many interesting matches between great wrestlers taped and uploaded to the internet as a sort of wrestling archive DOES contribute to the longterm promotion of the sport, especially when the wrestlers featured are local kids that we can all go out and see at the next dual or tournament. Flowrestling understands this and that's why they created the site.

What I noticed in your three questions above is a common theme. Whether it's the combatants, the refs, the directors of events, the family members of these people, the owners of wrestling forums, or the childish perpetrators of the flame wars - NOBODY should put themselves or put any individual above the sport of wrestling. If we can't put the promotion of the sport above the petty insecurities of individuals that may feel awkward seeing their high school kid criticized in the comments section of a youtube video, then we must all agree that said parent have a long talk with their wrestler about the consequences of being on a wrestling mat that may or may not have a rogue camera pointed at it. And you must be honest with yourself when you ask this question: Is it REALLY "ultimately damaging kids and families?" I can't tell you how many hundreds of parents have allowed their 6-12 year old kids quit the sport because they believe that a sport that results in their child crying because they lost might be damaging to them. My question is, "Damaging to who?"

This of course begs the next question: Why would anyone put their kid into wrestling? I can give you my short answer - It turns boys into men.

Dan Gable said it best. "Once you've wrestled, everything in life is easy."

My advice to anyone with the power to stop people like you from trying to help contribute to the sport by posting video footage of events for the sole purpose of protecting certain individuals from any kind of psychological damage is to cut the umbilical cord. These people are current and former wrestlers. Being criticized and seeing your flaws on video is easy. Its the wrestling thats hard, right Coach Gable?

And for those on any videos who are actually the target of possible criticism (i.e. the combatants and refs, etc), I doubt you'll hear much crying from them. But for those that may raise concern, the thing I would say (besides 'man up' of course) is that as a wrestler, you should be flattered that people besides your immediate family want to see you wrestle. Now you are a role model. There are going to be fathers showing your videos to their kids. Those kids will want to be like you. Act accordingly.

For refs, well you know you are always going to be the bad guys regardless if it is caught on tape or not. Just know that at least I appreciate your contribution to the sport. I am aware that there is a severe shortage of former wrestlers that want to spend 16 hours a day getting told how horrible they are by screaming sore losers. But without you, there would be no sport of wrestling.

And finally for the cameramen. Please be aware that this entire rant is really about what ends up on the video itself. Please make sure that if your video made public would end up hurting the sport of wrestling, just don't even post it. For example, matches that feature unsportsmanlike conduct, etc.

OK, I ranted enough. Feel free to criticize my opinion on this matter!
 
Well, I think Korb put any argument to rest if he could beat Gresham since he did it again in convincing style at Brecksville. He tore through his side of the bracket while Chaz struggled in the semis with an 8-7 win.

They are both nationally ranked, but Korb is clearly the better competitor at this point.
 
Well, I think Korb put any argument to rest if he could beat Gresham since he did it again in convincing style at Brecksville. He tore through his side of the bracket while Chaz struggled in the semis with an 8-7 win.

They are both nationally ranked, but Korb is clearly the better competitor at this point.

I'm not sure a 3-1 win in overtime is convincing as you say. Clearly better? He's better right now but the season is still young. I respect both wrestlers, just not your analysis...
 
Well, I think Korb put any argument to rest if he could beat Gresham since he did it again in convincing style at Brecksville. He tore through his side of the bracket while Chaz struggled in the semis with an 8-7 win.

They are both nationally ranked, but Korb is clearly the better competitor at this point.

It was a 9-7 decision over Schafer from Chanel who was clearly the next best wrestler after the two in discussion here as he tore through the consos. While I believe Korb is the better wrestler at the present time I think you underestimate the talent of Gresham and try to lesson his accomplishments. Both are great wrestlers who have the talent to bring two state championships home to Cincinnati. Love them both :)
 
It was a 9-7 decision over Schafer from Chanel who was clearly the next best wrestler after the two in discussion here as he tore through the consos. While I believe Korb is the better wrestler at the present time I think you underestimate the talent of Gresham and try to lesson his accomplishments. Both are great wrestlers who have the talent to bring two state championships home to Cincinnati. Love them both :)

I absolutely respect Chaz and think he is a great wrestler, never said otherwise. But several people discussing the call at Coaches seemed to imply that Korb was not as good or could not beat Gresham without help.

@tkdn I said he beat him convincingly and he did. Watch the match on Flo, this was much more dominating than the first match with Korb pushing the action the entire match. To me, that is convincing.
 
I sure would hope this ref reviews this video, then has the guts to come on here and explain that call.

You make me chuckle. The entire match was a stall fest. Two great wrestlers with a lot of respect for the other. Neither wanted to make a mistake knowing the result might be giving up points. Korb did more than Gresham, not much more but enough to earn the victory.
 
Seems to me like this is a case of two very evenly matched wrestlers. So far I have seen them wrestle a total of 12:54 (6:00 at SWOWCA and 6:54 at Brecksville) and the total score is 5-2 in favor of Korb with only one takedown and one penalty point.

That being said... I'd look for Korb to open up a bit more if they do ever meet again.
 
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