Girls Basketball Refs in NW OH

[luckofirish588]

I have been part of boys basketball for my entire life as a player and coach, and I have just started to watch high school girls basketball as my granddaughter is playing. I would like to say I can not believe the difference in officating for girls basketball. Now don't get me wrong I understand the shortage of officals but what I have watched this season is unacceptable. The games I have watched at the varsity level the average age of officals are 65+ and not able to get up and down the court. I understand that their thought is that they can still officate the girls game because their belief is that the girls game is slower than the boys. They would be better having two officials that can get up and down the court officiate the game instead of having three of them that can't keep up with the girls game. What I have watched these past couple of weeks of officiating varsity basketball is unfair for the girls and coaches playing or coaching high school basketball in NW OH. I have also watched officals that I know from boys basketball come over to do a girls game, and just be there to collect a check and not give the same effort that they do at a boys game. We owe it to these girls to give them the same great officiating that I have watched over the years on the boys side.

 

[Hooper419]

I have been part of boys basketball for my entire life as a player and coach, and I have just started to watch high school girls basketball as my granddaughter is playing. I would like to say I can not believe the difference in officating for girls basketball. Now don't get me wrong I understand the shortage of officals but what I have watched this season is unacceptable. The games I have watched at the varsity level the average age of officals are 65+ and not able to get up and down the court. I understand that their thought is that they can still officate the girls game because their belief is that the girls game is slower than the boys. They would be better having two officials that can get up and down the court officiate the game instead of having three of them that can't keep up with the girls game. What I have watched these past couple of weeks of officiating varsity basketball is unfair for the girls and coaches playing or coaching high school basketball in NW OH. I have also watched officals that I know from boys basketball come over to do a girls game, and just be there to collect a check and not give the same effort that they do at a boys game. We owe it to these girls to give them the same great officiating that I have watched over the years on the boys side.

What team have you been watching? Is it a D3 rural area? I coach in the Toledo area and we have the same officials rotating guys and ladies games for the most part. Couldn’t be happier with their performances and effort.

 

[Smarty2022]

I have been part of boys basketball for my entire life as a player and coach, and I have just started to watch high school girls basketball as my granddaughter is playing. I would like to say I can not believe the difference in officating for girls basketball. Now don't get me wrong I understand the shortage of officals but what I have watched this season is unacceptable. The games I have watched at the varsity level the average age of officals are 65+ and not able to get up and down the court. I understand that their thought is that they can still officate the girls game because their belief is that the girls game is slower than the boys. They would be better having two officials that can get up and down the court officiate the game instead of having three of them that can't keep up with the girls game. What I have watched these past couple of weeks of officiating varsity basketball is unfair for the girls and coaches playing or coaching high school basketball in NW OH. I have also watched officals that I know from boys basketball come over to do a girls game, and just be there to collect a check and not give the same effort that they do at a boys game. We owe it to these girls to give them the same great officiating that I have watched over the years on the boys side.

Next time you see the guy who You say not giving same effort and taking a check because it’s a Girls Game, You should go Thank the Whole Crew and him first. You do realize “that guy” works a real job All day long then comes there? You do realize he could make more $$ by staying at work or more memories at home with his Family? Relax and Remember very few HS Officials really have to be there!

 

[observer11]

Next time you see the guy who You say not giving same effort and taking a check because it’s a Girls Game, You should go Thank the Whole Crew and him first. You do realize “that guy” works a real job All day long then comes there? You do realize he could make more $$ by staying at work or more memories at home with his Family? Relax and Remember very few HS Officials really have to be there!

I would love for most of these guys to stay home. If I was this consistently bad at my job, I would be fired. The officiating today is egregious, there is no consequence for doing a poor job. You will not find me thanking any of these clowns. They don't know the rules, they cannot physically keep up, and it has been and will continue to be small men with power complexes.

 

[CasualFan24]

I would love for most of these guys to stay home. If I was this consistently bad at my job, I would be fired. The officiating today is egregious, there is no consequence for doing a poor job. You will not find me thanking any of these clowns. They don't know the rules, they cannot physically keep up, and it has been and will continue to be small men with power complexes.

OHSAA > Officiating > Become an Official > Beginning Officials - Baseball, Basketball, Football, Ice Hockey, Soccer (USSF Grades 9-12), Track and Field, Swimming and Diving, Softball, Volleyball and Wrestling

Instructions on how to become an official.

Just know, that if those 3 guys stay at home, as you mention, you're probably getting 3 either, older OR less experience officials on that game. Ya'll want to jump on here and complain about how bad it is, but no one wants to actually do something about it. If you can do better than they guys you're currently getting, then put up (and get licensed), or shut up.

 

[CasualFan24]

Also - just so everyone understands how this works...

Assigners choose officials for games (usually) based on a number of factors.

-Your middle school games and typically reserved for brand new officials, officials who are aging out, and guys that don't want to deal with the stresses of officiating real competition in the older levels (and guys who stink)
-Freshman level games are still the new guys - freshman teams are fewer and farther between these days.
-JV girls - again, newer officials working their way up from MS games.
-Varsity girls - New varsity level officials, mixed in with aging out officials.
-JV boys - younger, newer, up and coming officials. 2 man JV boys is tough, have to be able to get up and down the floor.
-Varsity boys - the best officials at the high school level.

There are MANY officials that do varsity boys, that rarely take varsity girls games. You want the honest reason? The girls game has generally never been great, and it's the worst its ever been right now. If I'm taking time away from my family to officiate a basketball game - I want it to be worth my time. It's not about money for MOST officials. The varsity games in a conference pay the same boys or girls. It's about the fact that there are only a handful of good girls teams in the whole state. And there is a very large percentage of teams that can't put a starting lineup of 5 girls on the court who can all do basic fundamental basketball moves such as catching a pass, and dribbling, without losing control of it.

Also - you need to take an honest look at your team. How do they stack up? Are they good, bad, middle of the road? I already told you, you're not getting the best officials just because it's a girls game, now, if you're watching a bad girls team - you're really getting bottom of the barrel officials. An assigner is going to send that nights best officials (in his pool of available guys) to the best teams/games.

Moral of the story - you want better officials? Get better teams and players.

 

[BBcourt32]

Also - just so everyone understands how this works...

Assigners choose officials for games (usually) based on a number of factors.

-Your middle school games and typically reserved for brand new officials, officials who are aging out, and guys that don't want to deal with the stresses of officiating real competition in the older levels (and guys who stink)
-Freshman level games are still the new guys - freshman teams are fewer and farther between these days.
-JV girls - again, newer officials working their way up from MS games.
-Varsity girls - New varsity level officials, mixed in with aging out officials.
-JV boys - younger, newer, up and coming officials. 2 man JV boys is tough, have to be able to get up and down the floor.
-Varsity boys - the best officials at the high school level.

There are MANY officials that do varsity boys, that rarely take varsity girls games. You want the honest reason? The girls game has generally never been great, and it's the worst its ever been right now. If I'm taking time away from my family to officiate a basketball game - I want it to be worth my time. It's not about money for MOST officials. The varsity games in a conference pay the same boys or girls. It's about the fact that there are only a handful of good girls teams in the whole state. And there is a very large percentage of teams that can't put a starting lineup of 5 girls on the court who can all do basic fundamental basketball moves such as catching a pass, and dribbling, without losing control of it.

Also - you need to take an honest look at your team. How do they stack up? Are they good, bad, middle of the road? I already told you, you're not getting the best officials just because it's a girls game, now, if you're watching a bad girls team - you're really getting bottom of the barrel officials. An assigner is going to send that nights best officials (in his pool of available guys) to the best teams/games.

Moral of the story - you want better officials? Get better teams and players.

Have you actually watched any girls basketball in the state of Ohio the past several years? There have been more McDonald's All Amercians and High major players from Ohio on the girls side than on the boys side. Are the middle to lower teams not great basketball of course they are but the problem I have with all officials on both the girls and boys side is one many are in poor shape (so many officials the past couple seasons have a hard time getting up and down even in the girls games) Also, I don't have any problems on judgement calls (fouls, block charges etc) but what drives me up a wall are they don't even know rules and procedures anymore. Had a varsity official the other day that didn't know the new spot throw in rules. We had another crew that tried to tell us varsity overtime was 3 mins, and various other procedural rules that are just basic. And yes, I was a licensed official for a few years before a foot injury sidelined me and was I perfect, absolutlely not but I was in shape and knew the rules. Its just so much different now than it used to be, I remember when I started just trying to get some varsity scrimmages and we would do them for free just to get "season ready" now you can't find guys for less than $80 a scrimmage and they don't even cross halfcourt. I really think the number of aau games that are played now has made the industry lazy. I have no problem paying the officials more (pending they actually know the rules and can get up and down) I know there is a shortage and I totally understand there is more fan criticism etc but at this point I'd rate just have 2 officials that actually can do the job. Once the shot clock comes to Ohio (which I'm sure it will soon) that will bring a whole other set of complexity and rules and I don't see this getting better in the future.

 

[hammer89]

I would love for most of these guys to stay home. If I was this consistently bad at my job, I would be fired. The officiating today is egregious, there is no consequence for doing a poor job. You will not find me thanking any of these clowns. They don't know the rules, they cannot physically keep up, and it has been and will continue to be small men with power complexes.

Refs that are that bad do get fired, in a sense (schools stop hiring them)

 

[AllSports12]

Refs that are that bad do get fired, in a sense (schools stop hiring them)

Please don't let the facts get in the way of hilarious rants.

 

[AllSports12]

Have you actually watched any girls basketball in the state of Ohio the past several years? There have been more McDonald's All Amercians and High major players from Ohio on the girls side than on the boys side.

The All Americans don't play each other every night. The result, 92-36, 81-39, 71-29, 93-7 (the latter, a game I worked a few years ago). Assigners are not (and should not) going to waste two or three "A" officials on non competitive games.

Are the middle to lower teams not great basketball of course they are but the problem I have with all officials on both the girls and boys side is one many are in poor shape (so many officials the past couple seasons have a hard time getting up and down even in the girls games)

The disparity of the level of officiating is now just about equal to the disparity of the level of basketball being played. I submit to you this question...... who's going to work those games? More and more varsity officials are working freshman games at one site (4:30 start) and then move on to another site to work their varsity game.

Also, I don't have any problems on judgement calls (fouls, block charges etc) but what drives me up a wall are they don't even know rules and procedures anymore. Had a varsity official the other day that didn't know the new spot throw in rules. We had another crew that tried to tell us varsity overtime was 3 mins, and various other procedural rules that are just basic. And yes, I was a licensed official for a few years before a foot injury sidelined me and was I perfect, absolutlely not but I was in shape and knew the rules. Its just so much different now than it used to be,

Agree with you on the point of not knowing the rules. However, when you pair that with the lack of officials available to work the games, this is what you get.

I remember when I started just trying to get some varsity scrimmages and we would do them for free just to get "season ready" now you can't find guys for less than $80 a scrimmage and they don't even cross halfcourt.

I also remember those days. Coaches would go 3 hours in their scrimmages. The absolutely took advantage (and we let them) of the free officials.

 

[AllSports12]

I would love for most of these guys to stay home.

No you wouldn't. The games would not be played.

You are just making noise with this statement.

If I was this consistently bad at my job, I would be fired.

Fired by someone who knows the details of your job and not by someone who has had no training or experience at the level (or higher) that you work. They also don't show up every day and scream at you for an hour and a half while you are performing your duties.

The officiating today is egregious, there is no consequence for doing a poor job. You will not find me thanking any of these clowns. They don't know the rules, they cannot physically keep up, and it has been and will continue to be small men with power complexes.

A couple of years ago, I was present for a meeting between the coaches and assigner for the sport of basketball. The coaches were at their wits end over a handful of officials this assigner was using for their games. (mind you, these officials were on the approved list given to the assigner prior) They wanted the assigner to cease using them in their conference games. The assigner told them he would fulfill their wishes. He then gave them a list of 10 officials to choose from in order so he would have enough officials for their assignments........

The handful of officials that the coaches wanted fired are still working that conference

Anyway, you keep on yelling at the officials while you are watching. I'm sure it will cause them to get better on the spot.

 

[CasualFan24]

I have no problem paying the officials more (pending they actually know the rules and can get up and down) I know there is a shortage and I totally understand there is more fan criticism etc but at this point I'd rate just have 2 officials that actually can do the job. Once the shot clock comes to Ohio (which I'm sure it will soon) that will bring a whole other set of complexity and rules and I don't see this getting better in the future.

You change Varsity level contests to 2 man, you're going to lose 90% of the good officials you have left right now. Reducing the number of officials on a game makes this way worse.

Have you actually watched any girls basketball in the state of Ohio the past several years? There have been more McDonald's All Amercians and High major players from Ohio on the girls side than on the boys side.

I guarantee I've seen a lot more basketball than you have over the last decade. We're not talking about All American players. Those come and go every single year. I'm talking about the other 99% of players and teams across the state. There is a reason that girls programs all across the state regardless of the size/division of the school are having trouble fielding JV teams. I've seen several D1 girls programs in my area not play JV games because they didn't have enough players. The girls game is struggling (just look at the posting activity on the girls side right here on Yappi) - it's generally awful basketball.

Are the middle to lower teams not great basketball of course they are but the problem I have with all officials on both the girls and boys side is one many are in poor shape (so many officials the past couple seasons have a hard time getting up and down even in the girls games) Also, I don't have any problems on judgement calls (fouls, block charges etc) but what drives me up a wall are they don't even know rules and procedures anymore. Had a varsity official the other day that didn't know the new spot throw in rules. We had another crew that tried to tell us varsity overtime was 3 mins, and various other procedural rules that are just basic.

I just wrote down the names of the best 10 officials I know - 6 of those 10 do not work girls games unless there is a really big game and an assigner specifically calls and asks them to work it. The other 4 regularly do girls and boys games. You want better officials on girls varsity games - I have a very easy, simple solutions that makes EVERYONE happy. Switch the scheduling and ONLY do GIRLS/BOYS double headers - move the JV games to a different night. Use 1 officiating crew for both the girls and the boys game. Officials get paid for 2 games - girls get the same level of officials as the boys do every night. On top of that, the gyms will be packed every single varsity night = more spectators at the girls games. Then - you get a 2nd day to collect gate fees for the schools at the JV games. Win/Win for EVERYBODY.

 

[CasualFan24]

I would love for most of these guys to stay home. If I was this consistently bad at my job, I would be fired. The officiating today is egregious, there is no consequence for doing a poor job. You will not find me thanking any of these clowns. They don't know the rules, they cannot physically keep up, and it has been and will continue to be small men with power complexes.

The thing you're missing - I don't know a single official that does this as their "job" (even the college guys have day jobs - heck, most pro level officials have day jobs)

Some guys do it for the extra money, for sure. But this is far from a job, most officials do it for various reasons - most of those reason are NOT self-interested. Love of the game, love of competition are probably the leading reasons why someone becomes an official. And it's the blow-hards like yourself that ruin it and make an official think, "maybe this just isn't worth the headaches."

Just remember - again, most officials are not doing this as a job. They don't HAVE to be there at all. When it gets to a point where an official no longer finds joy in officiating, they just leave the game. Then what?

 

[BBcourt32]

The All Americans don't play each other every night. The result, 92-36, 81-39, 71-29, 93-7 (the latter, a game I worked a few years ago). Assigners are not (and should not) going to waste two or three "A" officials on non competitive games.

The disparity of the level of officiating is now just about equal to the disparity of the level of basketball being played. I submit to you this question...... who's going to work those games? More and more varsity officials are working freshman games at one site (4:30 start) and then move on to another site to work their varsity game.

Agree with you on the point of not knowing the rules. However, when you pair that with the lack of officials available to work the games, this is what you get.

I also remember those days. Coaches would go 3 hours in their scrimmages. The absolutely took advantage (and we let them) of the free officials.

I agree, obviously there aren't marquee matchup's every night and especially on the girls side much more disparity consistently. I'm not recommending the assigners "waste" the top officials on these games. But tying this to your second comment, I would much rather just see most games have 2 officials, which would open up the pool of officials across the board to help in the shortage. I also think too this would help tremendously with training the younger officials too. Right now you get a good season three man crew that works a game but those officials generally don't get paired down with the newer crews as much and I know when I was coming up learning and talking with those vets was huge part of it for me and really taught me about the professionalism of it too. On the third point- yes, just knowing the rules/procedures etc is an area that can be improved. 100% and I coached and still volunteer and yes we did take advantage of the free work! It's just frustrating now when I can't get officials to come do 2 hour scrimmage for less than $60 in the preseason.

 

[AllSports12]

I have a very easy, simple solutions that makes EVERYONE happy. Switch the scheduling and ONLY do GIRLS/BOYS double headers - move the JV games to a different night. Use 1 officiating crew for both the girls and the boys game. Officials get paid for 2 games - girls get the same level of officials as the boys do every night. On top of that, the gyms will be packed every single varsity night = more spectators at the girls games. Then - you get a 2nd day to collect gate fees for the schools at the JV games. Win/Win for EVERYBODY.

This all has been tried in the past and has failed miserably.

 

[BBcourt32]

You change Varsity level contests to 2 man, you're going to lose 90% of the good officials you have left right now. Reducing the number of officials on a game makes this way worse.

I guarantee I've seen a lot more basketball than you have over the last decade. We're not talking about All American players. Those come and go every single year. I'm talking about the other 99% of players and teams across the state. There is a reason that girls programs all across the state regardless of the size/division of the school are having trouble fielding JV teams. I've seen several D1 girls programs in my area not play JV games because they didn't have enough players. The girls game is struggling (just look at the posting activity on the girls side right here on Yappi) - it's generally awful basketball.

I just wrote down the names of the best 10 officials I know - 6 of those 10 do not work girls games unless there is a really big game and an assigner specifically calls and asks them to work it. The other 4 regularly do girls and boys games. You want better officials on girls varsity games - I have a very easy, simple solutions that makes EVERYONE happy. Switch the scheduling and ONLY do GIRLS/BOYS double headers - move the JV games to a different night. Use 1 officiating crew for both the girls and the boys game. Officials get paid for 2 games - girls get the same level of officials as the boys do every night. On top of that, the gyms will be packed every single varsity night = more spectators at the girls games. Then - you get a 2nd day to collect gate fees for the schools at the JV games. Win/Win for EVERYBODY.

I'm not recommending every game go to 2 man crews but the assigners could reduce a majority of the "bad" games to 2 man crews and if having a 2 man crew working a 40 point blowout game is going to make 90% of them quit then so be it. I highly doubt you have seen more games than me, been on the sidelines for 42 years and the last ten I watch probably 200- plus games games a season 22-25 of our own plus 22 teams of scouting 6-8 games of opponents (thanks Hudl for not making me sit in bleachers every game!) Regardless, I get it, not every game is a huge matchup and there is alot of disparity. I think the last 20 years there has been a huge decline (all sports but specifically on the girls side) attribute that to many things (year round Volleyball, soccer, other new sports, tik tok etc) In regards to the next point, I love the idea, the NLL did this for years with the January Friday night Boys/Girls double headers and it was a win win for everyone but unfortunately the "New" NLL didn't think it was worth it to do this anymore- feel free to contact Richard Browne as I spoken my two cents on this many times already. When they did that they used the same crew for the girls JV game and the girls Varsity but then a different 3 man crew for the boys game btw. I like your idea better and would like to see more league look at this even if its only during one month of the season.

 

[BBcourt32]

This all has been tried in the past and has failed miserably.

NLL did it for years until they expanded this year, was fairly successful especially when the matchups were decent on both sides. Would like to see more leagues look at this at least once a year on rival games etc.

 

[AllSports12]

But tying this to your second comment, I would much rather just see most games have 2 officials, which would open up the pool of officials across the board to help in the shortage.

So go backwards in officiating?

I'm sorry, that's Fanboy talk. Not something expected from a veteran official.

I also think too this would help tremendously with training the younger officials too.

There is no training of younger officials. None.....

This silly notion of online education for rules and then throw them to the wolves to learn the mechanics and game management is mind boggling.

The entire officiating department needs a re-vamp, not only in personnel, but in the way they recruit and train officials. We have lost some outstanding instructors over the last decade because of what's been happening in Columbus...... and now, just as it took a while for the lack of constant recruitment over the years to have a major effect on officiating (shortage),we are seeing younger guys and (as you mentioned) "veteran" officials (in years of service only) out there poorly trained.... resulting in substandard officiating.

Right now you get a good season three man crew that works a game but those officials generally don't get paired down with the newer crews as much and I know when I was coming up learning and talking with those vets was huge part of it for me and really taught me about the professionalism of it too.

Those days are gone.....

On the third point- yes, just knowing the rules/procedures etc is an area that can be improved. 100% and I coached and still volunteer and yes we did take advantage of the free work! It's just frustrating now when I can't get officials to come do 2 hour scrimmage for less than $60 in the preseason.

$60 for a two hour scrimmage is an embarrassment. Then again, this is a missed opportunity for training and education.

 

[AllSports12]

NLL did it for years until they expanded this year, was fairly successful especially when the matchups were decent on both sides. Would like to see more leagues look at this at least once a year on rival games etc.

Once a year, yes. There are a number of schools that dedicate a Saturday for Frosh/JV/Varsity Girls-Boys alternating contests..... usually tied to a sponsor or a charitible cause.

It's not sustainable for almost 800 schools to do this regularly.

Let's also not forget...... this is a national problem. The problems here in Ohio are nothing compared to other states.

 

[CasualFan24]

This all has been tried in the past and has failed miserably.

There is a conference in my area that does them like this something like once a month. It's pretty much the only way you're getting me to take a girls game right now - is by having it before the boys game and giving me both games. It has some to do with girls basketball being awful, but more to do with my schedule/family life.

 

[CasualFan24]

I'm not recommending every game go to 2 man crews but the assigners could reduce a majority of the "bad" games to 2 man crews and if having a 2 man crew working a 40 point blowout game is going to make 90% of them quit then so be it. I highly doubt you have seen more games than me, been on the sidelines for 42 years and the last ten I watch probably 200- plus games games a season 22-25 of our own plus 22 teams of scouting 6-8 games of opponents (thanks Hudl for not making me sit in bleachers every game!) Regardless, I get it, not every game is a huge matchup and there is alot of disparity. I think the last 20 years there has been a huge decline (all sports but specifically on the girls side) attribute that to many things (year round Volleyball, soccer, other new sports, tik tok etc) In regards to the next point, I love the idea, the NLL did this for years with the January Friday night Boys/Girls double headers and it was a win win for everyone but unfortunately the "New" NLL didn't think it was worth it to do this anymore- feel free to contact Richard Browne as I spoken my two cents on this many times already. When they did that they used the same crew for the girls JV game and the girls Varsity but then a different 3 man crew for the boys game btw. I like your idea better and would like to see more league look at this even if its only during one month of the season.

Ok but you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You think you're going to get your best officials to go work a blow out game in a 2 man crew? NOOOO, you're going to get the absolute worst officials to do that. Thats the point - you want better officials and would sacrifice 3 man for 2 man to get better officials on games - but none of the good officials are going to take these 2 man games.

Also - conferences determine the amount officials get paid for games. You think the coaches and ADs of the bad teams are going to be OK with paying the same rate to the officials in those games where they know they're being sent the bottom of the barrel officials every game? No way, they're going to complain up a wall to that commissioner/assigner!

 

[BBcourt32]

Ok but you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You think you're going to get your best officials to go work a blow out game in a 2 man crew? NOOOO, you're going to get the absolute worst officials to do that. Thats the point - you want better officials and would sacrifice 3 man for 2 man to get better officials on games - but none of the good officials are going to take these 2 man games.

Also - conferences determine the amount officials get paid for games. You think the coaches and ADs of the bad teams are going to be OK with paying the same rate to the officials in those games where they know they're being sent the bottom of the barrel officials every game? No way, they're going to complain up a wall to that commissioner/assigner!

I think you are misunderstanding me. I would like to see more 2 man crews as I don't personally find the extra value of a third official (in most games) I'm not looking for the "best" officials I just want competent ones that know the rules and actually can go up and down a few times without looking completely gassed. Here in the Toledo area a good amount of the officials are over 60, some with knee and hip replacements ( I know because I'm in this group!) And even the girls game is getting hard for them to keep up. Again, I'm from a different era when becoming an official was more of an honor and didn't matter if I got a high level Boys City league matchup or filled in for a low scoring girls JV game was just happy to be a part of it. Let's use the NLL as an example, (although no one is touching AW locally this year) if AW/Ross is playing yes, having a good three man crew is important but for the Clay/Southview game yes a two man crew is sufficient. Same in the City if Rogers and Start is playing give them a good 3 man vs Waite/Woodward- use some JV or new officials for that. I think these leagues can be more selective like this and this would allow more officials in general to either work just the better games or (if OHSAA prioritized training) would be great to have a veteran official work with some up and comers on a low level game (Or heck even sit at the table, then talk with them at the half and post game etc like they do at the high level HS AAU tournaments with the college officials. There are alot more layers to the issues as ALLSPORTS12 references too but I think assigners/AD's/OHSAA etc all should start looking at these things.

 

[Smarty2022]

No you wouldn't. The games would not be played.

You are just making noise with this statement.

Fired by someone who knows the details of your job and not by someone who has had no training or experience at the level (or higher) that you work. They also don't show up every day and scream at you for an hour and a half while you are performing your duties.

A couple of years ago, I was present for a meeting between the coaches and assigner for the sport of basketball. The coaches were at their wits end over a handful of officials this assigner was using for their games. (mind you, these officials were on the approved list given to the assigner prior) They wanted the assigner to cease using them in their conference games. The assigner told them he would fulfill their wishes. He then gave them a list of 10 officials to choose from in order so he would have enough officials for their assignments........

The handful of officials that the coaches wanted fired are still working that conference

Anyway, you keep on yelling at the officials while you are watching. I'm sure it will cause them to get better on the spot.

This sums it up! Great post!

 

[AllSports12]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I would like to see more 2 man crews as I don't personally find the extra value of a third official (in most games) I'm not looking for the "best" officials I just want competent ones that know the rules and actually can go up and down a few times without looking completely gassed. Here in the Toledo area a good amount of the officials are over 60, some with knee and hip replacements ( I know because I'm in this group!) And even the girls game is getting hard for them to keep up. Again, I'm from a different era when becoming an official was more of an honor and didn't matter if I got a high level Boys City league matchup or filled in for a low scoring girls JV game was just happy to be a part of it. Let's use the NLL as an example, (although no one is touching AW locally this year) if AW/Ross is playing yes, having a good three man crew is important but for the Clay/Southview game yes a two man crew is sufficient. Same in the City if Rogers and Start is playing give them a good 3 man vs Waite/Woodward- use some JV or new officials for that. I think these leagues can be more selective like this and this would allow more officials in general to either work just the better games or (if OHSAA prioritized training) would be great to have a veteran official work with some up and comers on a low level game (Or heck even sit at the table, then talk with them at the half and post game etc like they do at the high level HS AAU tournaments with the college officials. There are alot more layers to the issues as ALLSPORTS12 references too but I think assigners/AD's/OHSAA etc all should start looking at these things.

Placing two officials on some games and three on another is bad idea on a number of fronts.

 

[BBcourt32]

Placing two officials on some games and three on another is bad idea on a number of fronts.

Like what? Obviously risk of injury to an official puts you down to one but other than that what's the issue? For a number of years when I played in the city and even small D2 college eons ago we only had 2. Heck, I can think of a handful of games in the past 10 years where we only had one. Probably the best was when at the old woodward gym they had their security officer put on a jersey to fill in.

 

[CasualFan24]

I think you are misunderstanding me. I would like to see more 2 man crews as I don't personally find the extra value of a third official (in most games) I'm not looking for the "best" officials I just want competent ones that know the rules and actually can go up and down a few times without looking completely gassed. Here in the Toledo area a good amount of the officials are over 60, some with knee and hip replacements ( I know because I'm in this group!) And even the girls game is getting hard for them to keep up. Again, I'm from a different era when becoming an official was more of an honor and didn't matter if I got a high level Boys City league matchup or filled in for a low scoring girls JV game was just happy to be a part of it. Let's use the NLL as an example, (although no one is touching AW locally this year) if AW/Ross is playing yes, having a good three man crew is important but for the Clay/Southview game yes a two man crew is sufficient. Same in the City if Rogers and Start is playing give them a good 3 man vs Waite/Woodward- use some JV or new officials for that. I think these leagues can be more selective like this and this would allow more officials in general to either work just the better games or (if OHSAA prioritized training) would be great to have a veteran official work with some up and comers on a low level game (Or heck even sit at the table, then talk with them at the half and post game etc like they do at the high level HS AAU tournaments with the college officials. There are alot more layers to the issues as ALLSPORTS12 references too but I think assigners/AD's/OHSAA etc all should start looking at these things.

As I mentioned though - you're going to have a real hard time getting ADs in each conference to agree to this. Which teams in your conference would concede to being bad enough to only accept 2 man crews on their games? Even the worst teams usually believe they deserve the same level of officials as the best teams - and the reasoning they use, is that they pay just as much for officials as the best teams....

 

[AllSports12]

Like what? Obviously risk of injury to an official puts you down to one but other than that what's the issue?

Just for starters, who makes the determination of what qualifies for 3 vers 2 officials?

Then, when comparing girls to boys, there's always that pesky Title IX issue lurking out there. Administrators aren't going to touch that with a 10ft pole.

For a number of years when I played in the city and even small D2 college eons ago we only had 2. Heck, I can think of a handful of games in the past 10 years where we only had one. Probably the best was when at the old woodward gym they had their security officer put on a jersey to fill in.

It's not the 1970's anymore.

 

[BBcourt32]

As I mentioned though - you're going to have a real hard time getting ADs in each conference to agree to this. Which teams in your conference would concede to being bad enough to only accept 2 man crews on their games? Even the worst teams usually believe they deserve the same level of officials as the best teams - and the reasoning they use, is that they pay just as much for officials as the best teams....

Some teams in the past ten years that I've talked to that would be open in the past 5-10 years would be most of the TAAC (especially with TC being so dominant the last few, actually Rick seemed open to it to help with Ref shortage) Maumee, Clay, Rogers, Start (with Kynard not Dane) Southview, AW, Napoleon, Bellevue to name a few. Obviously coaches have changed and teams have better and worse years etc but some of these are obvious like Rogers vs Waite and those type of matchups that are 70-80 point games. Do we really need 3 varsity officials on those? Would rather have one good varsity official and take an up and comer and let them work that and let two more varsity officials work other contests or offer some sort of mentoring opportunity for a veteran official to still get paid but observe train the new guys in a game like this. I don't disagree the buy in will be hard but we have official shortage issues and experience issues and trying to find solutions like the above might be a way to narrow the gap.

 

[BBcourt32]

Just for starters, who makes the determination of what qualifies for 3 vers 2 officials?

Then, when comparing girls to boys, there's always that pesky Title IX issue lurking out there. Administrators aren't going to touch that with a 10ft pole.



It's not the 1970's anymore.

Obviously the assigners would be the ones to make that call, Rick was open to it few years back, so was Ed (Scrutch) back in the day, Bradish didn't seem interested back in the Trac when mentioned to him and I know its been brought up to Ken Myers before in the past too. Like I stated in the other post, just looking for ways to help with some issues the game is facing (shortages, training etc) I think OHSAA needs to really revamp the whole program to make a larger impact but looking for ways to move the needle here in NWO.

I understand title IX and the balance implications and I'm not a legal expert but if both schools signed off on 2 officials would it be an issue? Heck the 3 times last year we only had 2 officials (2 because no third showed up and the other was an out of town game where they only use 2) there were no complaints from either side.

And thank god, the way the game is played, officiated etc is a constant evolution and just trying to find more efficient better ways to help solve today's issues.

 

[AllSports12]

Obviously the assigners would be the ones to make that call,

First, a policy setting the standards would have to be put into place. That's on the schools..... and that's not going to happen.

I understand title IX and the balance implications and I'm not a legal expert but if both schools signed off on 2 officials would it be an issue?

So, if two schools (or a conference for that matter) agree to violate the law, that somehow makes it acceptable?

Heck the 3 times last year we only had 2 officials (2 because no third showed up and the other was an out of town game where they only use 2) there were no complaints from either side.

Unexpected situations arise and you make do with what's available. However you are advocating for setting policy that discriminates against girls and/or teams that are somehow deemed "bad".

Yeah, that will be a big hit.