Elder D2 in Football?

I'd like to say how incredibly unhelpful it is that the OHSAA posts the enrollment list in alphabetical order instead of largest to smallest. But what else should we expect?

Yappi did the work the OHSAA won't and posted a list from largest (Mason with 1300 boys) to smallest (St. John Central Academy with 5 boys).


Are those #s for grades 9-12 inclusive?
 
Limiting D1 to the top 72 enrollments made sense when only 8 teams per region qualified for the playoffs. Hopefully the size of football D1 increases so the number of schools per division is more balanced. A few people mentioned the possibility of that happening, but it wasn't listed among the proposed changes from the OHSAA this year, so I guess it won't happen yet.
As long as it happens in the next few years.
 
Keep up the great discussion please. I know absolutely nothing about the Competitive Balance, Options and all that other fun stuff.
 
I’m reviving this thread just to ask a question. It seems clear that Elder’s approach to attracting new students in general (which of course would include athletes, singers for the Glee Club, musicians for the band, actors for the Seton-Elder Performing Arts Series, etc.) isn’t going to change any time soon, at least under the current administration.
Elder’s three class (9-11) enrollment “raw figure” this time around before the addition of its football competitive balance number was 567, which was upper D-II. Westerville North had the next smallest D-I raw figure of 606; their competitive balance number of 17 put them at 623, just above last place Sycamore, who was at 620 (617 + 3). Elder’s competitive balance number of 98 put them at 665, above 17 other D-I schools.
I’m no competitive balance expert, but I do know that all private schools have choices when it comes to determining their feeder schools. They can choose Option 1, which for Catholic high schools permits them to pick a public school district or, if applicable, public school attendance zone for its feeders. Elder can choose either the “Cincinnati City – West Attendance Zone” (Holy Family, Lourdes, Res, St. Al’s on the Ohio, St. Antoninus, St. Catherine, St. Joseph, St. Lawrence, St. Martin, St. Teresa, and St. William) or the “Oak Hills Local” (Victory, Visi, St. Al’s on Bridgetown, St. Dominic, and St. Jude). Or it can pick Option 2, which permits “nonpublic schools to utilize any school that is physically located within a 12.5mile radius of the high school as a feeder school." The 12.5mile radius must be the most direct path between the high school and the elementary school or schools. These feeder schools must be the same system of education as the high school to be considered a feeder school.
School district get bigger (Olentangy Local), they get smaller, the state tinkers with vouchers: all these things and others affect Elder’s classification one way or another.
My question is, all things considered, for the next and all future classification cycles should Elder select the competitive balance option that yields the lowest number and let the chips fall where they may? (Of course, maybe they did so this time and it yielded the number of 98.) It may put them in D-I or D-II but it would be totally within the rules. I know it wouldn’t solve their scheduling difficulties.
By the way, the four R8 teams left standing today are Anderson, Harrison, Troy, and Withrow. Up north Hoban and Massillon are still alive.
 
I’m reviving this thread just to ask a question. It seems clear that Elder’s approach to attracting new students in general (which of course would include athletes, singers for the Glee Club, musicians for the band, actors for the Seton-Elder Performing Arts Series, etc.) isn’t going to change any time soon, at least under the current administration.
Elder’s three class (9-11) enrollment “raw figure” this time around before the addition of its football competitive balance number was 567, which was upper D-II. Westerville North had the next smallest D-I raw figure of 606; their competitive balance number of 17 put them at 623, just above last place Sycamore, who was at 620 (617 + 3). Elder’s competitive balance number of 98 put them at 665, above 17 other D-I schools.
I’m no competitive balance expert, but I do know that all private schools have choices when it comes to determining their feeder schools. They can choose Option 1, which for Catholic high schools permits them to pick a public school district or, if applicable, public school attendance zone for its feeders. Elder can choose either the “Cincinnati City – West Attendance Zone” (Holy Family, Lourdes, Res, St. Al’s on the Ohio, St. Antoninus, St. Catherine, St. Joseph, St. Lawrence, St. Martin, St. Teresa, and St. William) or the “Oak Hills Local” (Victory, Visi, St. Al’s on Bridgetown, St. Dominic, and St. Jude). Or it can pick Option 2, which permits “nonpublic schools to utilize any school that is physically located within a 12.5mile radius of the high school as a feeder school." The 12.5mile radius must be the most direct path between the high school and the elementary school or schools. These feeder schools must be the same system of education as the high school to be considered a feeder school.
School district get bigger (Olentangy Local), they get smaller, the state tinkers with vouchers: all these things and others affect Elder’s classification one way or another.
My question is, all things considered, for the next and all future classification cycles should Elder select the competitive balance option that yields the lowest number and let the chips fall where they may? (Of course, maybe they did so this time and it yielded the number of 98.) It may put them in D-I or D-II but it would be totally within the rules. I know it wouldn’t solve their scheduling difficulties.
By the way, the four R8 teams left standing today are Anderson, Harrison, Troy, and Withrow. Up north Hoban and Massillon are still alive.
No, D2 would be lame. Shame on you for asking.
 
No. Football has too many divisions. Every division is watered down a little bit. It "should" be easier to win state in D1 than it was 10+ years ago when there were only 6 divisions. There is no need to go D2. Even if they did, there are very good teams in D2. There are multiple D2 teams this year just as good or better than any D1 team.

If Elder would ever need to boost their CB numbers even more to stay D1 they should. This would be easily done. They would just need to count Visitation and Jude as outside their feeder boundary.

Looking at competitive balance numbers, it looks like a lot of schools calculate this differently, and I think the OHSAA doesn't do any fact checking on it. It looks to me that they just accept whatever number the schools send their way.
 
It should be important to note, because not everyone understands this, that football is the only sport Elder is on the borderline between D1 and D2. This is because football has too many divisions(7) and no other sport has that many.
 
No, D2 would be lame. Shame on you for asking.
Going D2 does nothing to solve Elders scheduling problems. Look at LaSalle. They had to play 7 D1 schools this year and limped into the D2 playoffs and because of their record drew Winton Woods in week 1.
 
Going D2 does nothing to solve Elders scheduling problems. Look at LaSalle. They had to play 7 D1 schools this year and limped into the D2 playoffs and because of their record drew Winton Woods in week 1.
Plus, it’s just lame.
 
To add, Elder’s enrollment has grown every year for the last three years. Next year looks to be a big freshman class too.
That's true, but I'll repeat what I originally posted in March of 2022. There are factors outside of Elder's control working against them.

The biggest thing outside Elder’s control is the population growth in public school districts in the Columbus area if the number of D1 schools doesn't increase. For example, the Olentangy Local School District in Delaware County now has the fourth largest enrollment in the state behind only Cincinnati, Cleveland and Columbus city schools. Since 1998, the district's enrollment is up from 4,812 to 22,573--an increase of 370%. The district projects that over the next 10 years they'll add another 4,000 students PK-12. The district has 4 high schools: Olentangy (previously D2), Olentangy Orange (previously D1), Olentangy Liberty (previously D1) and Olentangy Berlin (previously D2). Based on the numbers on the OHSAA's site all four of those schools have more boys than Elder does pre-competitive balance. I think it's safe to say growth like this will continue around Columbus when the Intel facilities are built.

I trust that Elder will do everything they can to remain in D1 for football using competitive balance increases how ever they can.
 
That's true, but I'll repeat what I originally posted in March of 2022. There are factors outside of Elder's control working against them.



I trust that Elder will do everything they can to remain in D1 for football using competitive balance increases how ever they can.
The top of D2 is every bit as good as D1, that’s obvious with Massillon beating trash bag Eds back to back years. But after the top 4 or 5, the drop off is massive.
 
The top of D2 is every bit as good as D1, that’s obvious with Massillon beating trash bag Eds back to back years. But after the top 4 or 5, the drop off is massive.
If this is true, then an Elder move to D-II probably would affect one game each season for sure, would possibly affect two games, and maybe would affect three games. That's all.
We all agree that if Elder were to end up in D-II their scheduling difficulties would continue unabated, so they still would play the same tough regular season schedule but then be in the R8 playoffs, the same as LaSalle. So their regular season would be unaffected. Now let's look at the playoffs.
In R4 the first round game usually is a gimme for the Panthers, although this year the Highlanders kept from being blown out. In R8 the first round game also would be a gimme for Elder. This round would not be affected.
The R4 quarterfinal game is no sure thing, as we recently found out. I will concede that in R8 the quarterfinal game most probably would belong to Elder in 9 out of 10 years, so I will say that that round probably would be affected for sure.
Now to the R8 semis and final. If the top 4 or 5 teams in D-II are every bit as good as those in D-I, and if LaSalle or Winton Woods is in that top 4 or 5, then playing either of them in an R8 semi would be at least the same as playing another team in an R4 semi (depending on who the D-I team is and how good they are that year). If they're both in the top 4 or 5 and in opposite halves of the bracket, then playing them back-to-back would be at least the same as playing in the R4 semis and final (again, depending on who the two D-I teams are). And of course maybe some years another R8 school other than LaSalle or Winton Woods - Anderson, Troy, or Lima Senior - oops, bad memories, scratch them - might be in that top 4 or 5 and would pose a legitimate threat to the Panthers in R8. So, depending on the quality of R8 in any given year (what round the massive drop off occurs), you would have to say that those two rounds possibly or maybe would be affected by Elder moving to D-II. One or two games.
Now we move to the D-II semis. Could you pencil in the Panthers every or even most years as the R8 champs and therefore in the D-II state semis? I would say certainly not to every year and probably not to most years (75% or more of the time). The majority of years? Possibly, but maybe not.
Now to the D-II title game. Could you pencil them in to the R8 title game every year and as R8 champ every year? Of course not, not with Hoban and Massillon lurking about. None of the coaches or fans of those schools would say that they are afraid of playing Elder.
If the top of D-II is every bit as good as D-I, what is the difference between losing an R4 playoff game to Lakota West, Moeller, X, or Princeton and losing an R8 playoff game to LaSalle or Winton Woods? Or losing a state semifinal or title game to LSE or a Pickerington team or to Hoban or Massillon? Heck, one way to look at it would be that losing in the D-II playoffs in R8 play most years would be worse than losing in the D-I playoffs.
I do think it is fair to say that winning the D-I "big school" football title brings some prestige that winning a lower division title normally does not. Of course, this year may be different because if LSE wins the D-I title and Massillon wins the D-II title the Tigers can legitimately claim to be the best high school football team in the state this year.
In any case, the day may come when, due to demographics and other factors statewide, the competitive balance option that yields the highest number for Elder is not enough to keep them in D-I.
 
Plus, it’s just lame.
I mean, it's mostly based on enrollment so not exactly a whole lot that can be done about it if it ever gets to a point where even CB can keep them in D1. And other schools are marketing frequently on the westside so families are probably weighing their options more. Can't drive by a catholic school over here without seeing signs from Elder, Roger Bacon, X, LaSalle, Moeller and Oak Hills. I might even be missing some.
 
If this is true, then an Elder move to D-II probably would affect one game each season for sure, would possibly affect two games, and maybe would affect three games. That's all.
We all agree that if Elder were to end up in D-II their scheduling difficulties would continue unabated, so they still would play the same tough regular season schedule but then be in the R8 playoffs, the same as LaSalle. So their regular season would be unaffected. Now let's look at the playoffs.
In R4 the first round game usually is a gimme for the Panthers, although this year the Highlanders kept from being blown out. In R8 the first round game also would be a gimme for Elder. This round would not be affected.
The R4 quarterfinal game is no sure thing, as we recently found out. I will concede that in R8 the quarterfinal game most probably would belong to Elder in 9 out of 10 years, so I will say that that round probably would be affected for sure.
Now to the R8 semis and final. If the top 4 or 5 teams in D-II are every bit as good as those in D-I, and if LaSalle or Winton Woods is in that top 4 or 5, then playing either of them in an R8 semi would be at least the same as playing another team in an R4 semi (depending on who the D-I team is and how good they are that year). If they're both in the top 4 or 5 and in opposite halves of the bracket, then playing them back-to-back would be at least the same as playing in the R4 semis and final (again, depending on who the two D-I teams are). And of course maybe some years another R8 school other than LaSalle or Winton Woods - Anderson, Troy, or Lima Senior - oops, bad memories, scratch them - might be in that top 4 or 5 and would pose a legitimate threat to the Panthers in R8. So, depending on the quality of R8 in any given year (what round the massive drop off occurs), you would have to say that those two rounds possibly or maybe would be affected by Elder moving to D-II. One or two games.
Now we move to the D-II semis. Could you pencil in the Panthers every or even most years as the R8 champs and therefore in the D-II state semis? I would say certainly not to every year and probably not to most years (75% or more of the time). The majority of years? Possibly, but maybe not.
Now to the D-II title game. Could you pencil them in to the R8 title game every year and as R8 champ every year? Of course not, not with Hoban and Massillon lurking about. None of the coaches or fans of those schools would say that they are afraid of playing Elder.
If the top of D-II is every bit as good as D-I, what is the difference between losing an R4 playoff game to Lakota West, Moeller, X, or Princeton and losing an R8 playoff game to LaSalle or Winton Woods? Or losing a state semifinal or title game to LSE or a Pickerington team or to Hoban or Massillon? Heck, one way to look at it would be that losing in the D-II playoffs in R8 play most years would be worse than losing in the D-I playoffs.
I do think it is fair to say that winning the D-I "big school" football title brings some prestige that winning a lower division title normally does not. Of course, this year may be different because if LSE wins the D-I title and Massillon wins the D-II title the Tigers can legitimately claim to be the best high school football team in the state this year.
In any case, the day may come when, due to demographics and other factors statewide, the competitive balance option that yields the highest number for Elder is not enough to keep them in D-I.
The odd thing that happens sometimes is the schedule and Elder’s record would put them against a La Salle or Winton Woods in the first round.

Meanwhile a Harrison or Troy gets a good draw beating up tomato cans and skates to the semifinals while Winton Woods and La Salle and maybe one day, Elder, have moved on to basketball. Three of the four best teams this year were in R8’s bottom quarter.
 
I mean, it's mostly based on enrollment so not exactly a whole lot that can be done about it if it ever gets to a point where even CB can keep them in D1. And other schools are marketing frequently on the westside so families are probably weighing their options more. Can't drive by a catholic school over here without seeing signs from Elder, Roger Bacon, X, LaSalle, Moeller and Oak Hills. I might even be missing some.
I understand, but nobody wants Elder in D2. There’s going to be a work around. And again, the best of D2 are on par with the best of D1. But the overall depth is nowhere close.
 
I understand, but nobody wants Elder in D2. There’s going to be a work around. And again, the best of D2 are on par with the best of D1. But the overall depth is nowhere close.
What would that 'work around' be? Have any other teams received the benefit of a 'work around?'
 
When the idea of "competitive balance" was first proposed the concept of a "success" multiplier was included, however, it was never put into practice.
 
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