Comments by Badin's coach.....thoughts?

Everything you said is absolutely correct but lets cut the games he, recruits and his assistants recruit publicly. lol
Schools reach out to kids about coming to their school all the time. There are no boundaries.

Athlete or not, PM can reach out to whoever they want to. You can't reach out specifically about sports, but you can certainly talk to a kid about coming to school. That's why this is all semantical BS.

PM has an open house. They can invite anyone and everyone. Anyone can show up. Kids can pick any school they want. Why do people make such a big deal about this?
 
The privates literally target thousands of kids in the tri-state area every year to come to their school. Mailers, open houses, tournaments at their gyms, football showcases at their fields, AAU programs that feed their sports teams, scholarship and voucher programs set up to attract more and more and more....they start this in early grade school. It's most certainly recruiting, and oftentimes, it's recruiting athletes. All of this is fine and dandy, but the second an urban private or public school has 2-3 kids decide they want to play together, the s**t hits the fan.

Someone please explain how anyone affiliated with a private school can be mad when other schools "recruit" - it's hilarious that this is even a topic. This 100% has racial undertones. It's people trying to protect their power and what they feel they are entitled to. When they feel they are losing their grip, they create this cheating narrative to save face. It needs to be continued to be called out.

This is the Elder homer fan playbook 101.
 
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So my response is going to be more general in nature, I'm not in the area and don't know the history. And honestly for a rare occasion, I can side with both thoughts. Our world has changed drastically over the last 30-40 years. There are open borders and choices for students and parents more than ever before. And yes, for the privates, there is no "school district". I've heard of families who send kids to a private school more than an hour away one way. To me that's insane but it's up to the parent to make that choice.
My main thought is this, WHY are these kids / parents motivated to change schools, or keep changing schools? No doubt travel ball and AAU ball has alot to do with this. It does seem to be more of a girls sports thing for them to move or gather at said school than guys, but it does happen with guys too.
For a regional final game to be a 50 point spread just shows the absurdity of this. What are we doing? And this isn't necessarily directed at the top players but the others. If you're a pretty good player, and you transfer to a powerhouse like this and you're the 10-11th player off the bench, what is the goal? Is it just about winning? Isn't it better for a really good player to stay at their original school and lift that program up, rather than go join a great team and be a small part of it? At some point, that kid (or their parent) made the decision to pull that kid from their original school, their friends and situation to go to another school. Now maybe these days it's not a big deal anymore but statistics show that a difficult think for kids to endure is changing schools.
Is it illegal to recruit? No, school funding is based on enrollment so schools are recruiting all the time. But it again falls back on what the parent feels is best for their kid.
 
I never said they illegally recruited. I said they get kids from everywhere. It's a tremendous advantage to get kids from such a wide reach. But when smaller privates or publics have kids band together to play together, people go nuts. It's a complete double standard.

This "schools are recruiting" BS is just a bunch of semantics. Of course kids are drawn to great academic or athletic success. Also, schools have to recruit (legally) to stay relevant. This imaginary line of when it's just about sports and when it's not is just stupid and arbitrary. Kids pick schools for many reasons, sports being one of them.

The ONLY time this comes up is when people gets their butts whooped. It's a massive inferiority complex from the schools that refuse to adapt to current times and continue to try to re-generate the past.
I can agree with everything you said here. I sometimes get defensive when I think folks accuse StX of recruiting because I had multiple boys and two nephews go to the school and see first hand how it works. I think in general parents and players seek a school more so than the other way around.
 
The privates literally target thousands of kids in the tri-state area every year to come to their school. Mailers, open houses, tournaments at their gyms, football showcases at their fields, AAU programs that feed their sports teams, scholarship and voucher programs set up to attract more and more and more....they start this in early grade school. It's most certainly recruiting, and oftentimes, it's recruiting athletes. All of this is fine and dandy, but the second an urban private or public school has 2-3 kids decide they want to play together, the s**t hits the fan.

Someone please explain how anyone affiliated with a private school can be mad when other schools "recruit" - it's hilarious that this is even a topic. This 100% has racial undertones. It's people trying to protect their power and what they feel they are entitled to. When they feel they are losing their grip, they create this cheating narrative to save face. It needs to be continued to be called out.

This is the Elder homer fan playbook 101.
You are spot on with your info. The private schools spend a lot of money targeting middle school kids at public and private schools all over the Tri=State. And Cincinnati has an abnormal number of private schools related to the population of the Tri-State so I think it only enhances the thought process for some that private high schools are recruiting athletes.
 
I don't disagree with you here but I would say this is not sustainable for the health of HS sports.

An even playing field is a requirement to keep the game competitive. Yes, most of the schools have the opportunity to try and bring in better athletes to go to their school. But it is something that many administrators frown upon because it is not in the best interest of the educational environment.
I don't know if it's quite to that level. Baden won what 20 games this year, sectional, district titles, far from a bad season, actually very good. There is no guarantee that everyone should have a shot a winning a state championship, I'd even say most kids know it's a pipe dream. But I'm more interested in the competition, not the winning part and I just feel too many parents are looking at the winning part only. My guess is PM has 5-6-7 players or more who would be the best player on other teams in the area. Basically when you pull an "all star" team together, of course they are going to win.
I think HS sports are always going to be fine because most of us understand the role it plays in schools.
 
I'll disagree with you here.

I really don't care about what happens to one kid in one program in one sport anywhere in the state.

What I do care about is the health of HS sports. Right now, HS sports is in the worst shape I've seen in my life. The recruiting and player movement is creating a noticeable downturn in the interest of HS sports. I don't see HS sports continuing much longer due to this selfish behavior.

I go back to the original idea of what HS sports was about...my school playing your school in a sport. Didn't matter what sport, it was supposed to be about the student body bringing together their best players to play against the best players from a different school. If someone wanted to start a pickle ball tournament for the kids to play, it would be alot of fun. If the OHSAA sanctioned the sport, it wouldn't take long for some coach or some fan at a school to go out and actively look for better players to make "their" school a champion.
100% agree with you Mr. Yappi----as a 12 year Catholic school graduate (Badin HS), Masters degree from Xavier (Jesuit University), 35 year retired educator and guidance counselor and currently coaching for 30+ years in public schools, this entire situation is only going to get more contentious as the Ohio Voucher System (costing $409 million with 82,000 vouchers to private school students) kicks in after this first wave is coming through in 2023-24. Statistics so far show that over 82% of the families using the vouchers at private schools are middle to upper middle class and predominately Caucasian. The program was initially set up by the Ohio GOP as Ed Choice to "lift students out of "failing schools" and allow them to attend successful schools". Very few minorities (12%) are accessing the use of the voucher right now as Catholic schools are raising their tuition to keep the students they have and take in the $6000+ of state taxpayer voucher $'s at elementary and high school levels. My wife's Catholic grade school priest encouraged every family "to apply for a voucher no matter how much money your family earns"---and then raised tuition by over $2000 to keep numbers where they are for students in the Mason and Lakota school districts who attend--hardly under-performing public school districts.

It's come time in Ohio to have separate state tournaments for public and private schools because the playing field as Doublehelix has indicated contains "no borders" for private schools any longer and for the vast majority of public schools they do have borders. Call it the Borders State Tournament and the Open Borders State Tournament----let the private schools like PM and Badin eat each other since it's likely they both "encourage" top players to attend their schools. Maybe Open Enrollment Public schools can play in the Open Borders tournament as well. This separation has occurred in other states and has been used for years---at least it would be a "more level playing field". I think this would help the health of HS sports in Ohio from big city to rural Ohio schools.
 
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Sunderman is a complete jackass. Truth be told let’s start breaking down the enrollment across all the sports at Badin and god knows their football program is loaded with kids that never step foot in a parochial school for grades 1-8. Fact of the matter is Purcel has attracted talent because really good players like to play with other good players. Moeller does the same thing as well as StX, Lasalle, and Elder. For a Badin Coach to act like their program has all Catholic school kids is just ridiculous. If my kids went to Badin I would absolutely cringe at hearing Sunderman talk like that.
Usually it’s with his AAU biz, but Sunderman acts like this whenever something does not go his way.
 
I don't disagree with you here but I would say this is not sustainable for the health of HS sports.

An even playing field is a requirement to keep the game competitive. Yes, most of the schools have the opportunity to try and bring in better athletes to go to their school. But it is something that many administrators frown upon because it is not in the best interest of the educational environment.
Even playing field? WHAT????

The privates have had EVERY advantage bestowed upon them and you talk about an even playing field??? This is where the entitlement aspect comes in. They've had their cake and ate it too and people will still say the privates are getting screwed because some of the publics are doing exactly what the privates have done for generations.

It's absolutely amazing how people look at this. It has nothing to do with anything except keeping what they feel is their entitled spot on top of the power structure. Everything else is BS spin and narrative to keep control.

So now the privates are complaining about an even playing field????????? What an absolute joke. The essence of entitlement.

Why do you think the privates DOMINATE the high school sports landscape? Hmmm - probably because it's set up that way. Same way with the vouchers that CometCountry mentioned. It was meant for kids in struggling school districts and it has turned into a windfall for private students and schools. It's giving more to well-off White kids that it ever will for struggling minorities.

This is what always happens, and you wonder why minorities are fed up with it.
 
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Even playing field? WHAT????

The privates have had EVERY advantage bestowed upon them and you talk about an even playing field??? This is where the entitlement aspect comes in. They've had their cake and ate it too and people will still say the privates are getting screwed because some of the publics are doing exactly what the privates have done for generations.

It's absolutely amazing how people look at this. It has nothing to do with anything except keeping what they feel is their entitled spot on top of the power structure. Everything else is BS spin and narrative to keep control.

So now the privates are complaining about an even playing field????????? What an absolute joke. The essence of entitlement.

Why do you think the privates DOMINATE the high school sports landscape? Hmmm - probably because it's set up that way. Same way with the vouchers that CometCountry mentioned. It was meant for kids in struggling school districts and it has turned into a windfall for private students and schools. It's giving more to well-off White kids that it ever will for struggling minorities.

This is what always happens, and you wonder why minorities are fed up with it.
You must have misunderstood---i want the teams competing against each other in the tournament to be on an even playing field---I absolutely wrote that private schools aren't on the same rules with "open borders" as public schools who have borders and only students can attend the school they live in. Separate tournaments would create that situation----and then PM, Badin and other private schools can complain about the "recruiting".

I am a retired public school educator and coach for over 40 years----the private schools have had the advantage for years and now vouchers will make it even more in their favor.
 
You must have misunderstood---i want the teams competing against each other in the tournament to be on an even playing field---I absolutely wrote that private schools aren't on the same rules with "open borders" as public schools who have borders and only students can attend the school live in. Separate tournaments would create that situation----and then PM, Badin and other private schools can complain about the "recruiting".

I am a public school educator and coach for over 40 years----the private schools have had the advantage for years and now vouchers will make it even more in their favor.
I get what you were saying, and it makes some sense.

My response was to Yappi who seems to be saying some of the publics and urban privates that collect talent are providing an unfair disadvantage to the bigger private schools, which is a joke. The large privates have every stone uncovered for them, and people still complain they are getting a raw deal. It's nauseating.
 
I mean. This all could have been solved if one of the new divisions OHSAA is rolling out is for Private Schools or Open Enrollment schools with a competitive balance number of (say) 20 or higher.

It’s worse up here in the north where you get 6-8 of the better D1 kids leaving their school and tgo transfer to a D4 parochial and they are beating all the other small schools in their league 80-10.

Make that make sense….
 
100% agree with you Mr. Yappi----as a 12 year Catholic school graduate (Badin HS), Masters degree from Xavier (Jesuit University), 35 year retired educator and guidance counselor and currently coaching for 30+ years in public schools, this entire situation is only going to get more contentious as the Ohio Voucher System kicks in after this first wave is coming through in 2023-24. Statistics so far show that over 80% of the families using the vouchers at private schools are middle to upper middle class and predominately Caucasian. The program was initially set up by the Ohio GOP as Ed Choice to "lift students out of "failing schools" and allow them to attend successful schools". Very few minorities (12%) are accessing the use of the voucher right now as Catholic schools are raising their tuition to keep the students they have and take in the $6000+ of state taxpayer voucher $'s at elementary and high school levels. My wife's Catholic grade school priest encouraged every family "to apply for a voucher no matter how much money your family earns"---and then raised tuition by over $2000 to keep numbers where they are for students in the Mason and Lakota school districts who attend--hardly under-performing public school districts.

It's come time in Ohio to have separate state tournaments for public and private schools because the playing field as Doublehelix has indicated contains "no borders" for private schools any longer and for the vast majority of public schools they do have borders. Call it the Borders State Tournament and the Open Borders State Tournament----let the private schools like PM and Badin eat each other since it's likely they both "encourage" top players to attend their schools. Maybe Open Enrollment Public schools can play in the Open Borders tournament as well. This separation has occurred in other states and has been used for years---at least it would be a "more level playing field". I think this would help the health of HS sports in Ohio from big city to rural Ohio schools.
I think this sums it up. What I would do is have a different scale for public(no open enrollment) and private/public open enrollment.

Use the competitive balance numbers for more than just adding on to the final enrollment #

Like PM has 145 girls, but their CB# is 64 for 209. for every 15 kids its x2, x3, x, 4, x5, x6 etc

So PM would be x5, and their total would be 145 x 5 = 725

And schools like Batavia who has 241 and 4 for a CB # would stay at 241, Wyoming has 232, with 0 CB so they stay at 232

IMO If you have the ability to draw from everywhere (private/public) then this needs to factor in more
 
I mean. This all could have been solved if one of the new divisions OHSAA is rolling out is for Private Schools or Open Enrollment schools with a competitive balance number of (say) 20 or higher.

It’s worse up here in the north where you get 6-8 of the better D1 kids leaving their school and tgo transfer to a D4 parochial and they are beating all the other small schools in their league 80-10.

Make that make sense….
I'm assuming your 419 means you're in 419 area code. There are no D4 parochial schools up here with 6-8 D1 transfers playing for them. If you're talking about boys......the top 2 D4 privates in NW Ohio are Toledo Christian and Lima Central Catholic. I don't know if either of them has anyone that came from a D1 school.....but they sure as heck don't have 6-8 of them lol. The D4 girls NW Ohio regional had 1 private school....and they got destroyed by a small town public school. Curious who you were talking about
 
And now do people understand why I've had a decade feud with the Elder forum?

They are the epitome of whiners when it comes to this topic. They literally do everything under the sun to attract feeder kids from 3 states to their school, and then complain to the high heavens about cheating when Moeller or a public school gets a couple kids from lower Dayton or Downtown. Do they care if that kid plays the tuba? Nope - only when it disrupts their rightful spot at the top of the football mountain.

Oh, and with all that complaining on one side, they say it's immoral for them to go out and get those kids themselves. Constant talking out of both sides of their mouths, because of this nauseating entitlement.

Even though nothing is improper, they won't go get outsiders, and say you aren't allowed to either. Complete inferiority complex at play. All of this spin really to ensure their preferred kids get their entitled roster spots.
 
We saw what the new divisions did to girls volleyball. Practically moved almost every private powerhouse teams to D2, D3, and D4 across the State and I think only one power house private schools remained in D1. Within 48 hours there was talk of allowing the schools to opt up to D1. Fact of the matter is Ohio has a lot of Private Schools, more so than other States. In some sports the privates absolutely dominate and in others we see the public schools holding their own.
 
Everything you said is absolutely correct but lets cut the games he, recruits and his assistants recruit publicly. lol
I've never seen or heard of them recruiting so I cannot say yes or no but I know that every high school recruits and tries to recruit players they think will fit their standard
 
We saw what the new divisions did to girls volleyball. Practically moved almost every private powerhouse teams to D2, D3, and D4 across the State and I think only one power house private schools remained in D1. Within 48 hours there was talk of allowing the schools to opt up to D1. Fact of the matter is Ohio has a lot of Private Schools, more so than other States. In some sports the privates absolutely dominate and in others we see the public schools holding their own.
A school like Elder will completely dominate 99% of D2. And they will still find ways to complain.

I will call it right now. They won't opt to move up to D1 because they know they will dominate D2 and it will allow them to continue to just give the opportunities to their entitled feeder market. Win/Win for them.
 
I'm assuming your 419 means you're in 419 area code. There are no D4 parochial schools up here with 6-8 D1 transfers playing for them. If you're talking about boys......the top 2 D4 privates in NW Ohio are Toledo Christian and Lima Central Catholic. I don't know if either of them has anyone that came from a D1 school.....but they sure as heck don't have 6-8 of them lol. The D4 girls NW Ohio regional had 1 private school....and they got destroyed by a small town public school. Curious who you were talking about
Well Jenna transfered from Anthony Wayne Kendall is from NWood and transfered from ND, Ragen is from Oak Harbor, MRD was from Whitmer and back at Whitmer, Jordan from Waite, but go on..,
And they lost to Gibsonburg because of an unreal performance by Evarts, but they won 4 games by 50 or more. If you take the best kids from D1 or D2 schools you shouldn’t be able to play D4.
 
Well Jenna transfered from Anthony Wayne Kendall is from NWood and transfered from ND, Ragen is from Oak Harbor, MRD was from Whitmer and back at Whitmer, Jordan from Waite, but go on..,
And they lost to Gibsonburg because of an unreal performance by Evarts, but they won 4 games by 50 or more. If you take the best kids from D1 or D2 schools you shouldn’t be able to play D4.
Lol....so that's 2 at most.....not 6-8. TC was lucky to be a top 20 D4 team in the state. Comparing them to the situation at the big schools like Purcell Marian or Moeller is not a realistic comparison at all. TC also plays in one of the weakest leagues in the state of Ohio....so winning a few games by 50 isn't all that big of a deal
 
From the Badin Head Coach: “I just didn’t want our kids to quit,” Sunderman added. “When you recruit six or seven Division I’s, you get four transfers in, you got 10 girls that live out of district — none of them went to parochial schools in grade school — it’s going to be hard. You have to have all the stars line up, and they didn’t line up.”



The coach says he didn't want his kids to quit,...then gave a million reasons and excuses for his kids to get beat and quit immediately. Why would you want to play for a guy who says things like this and is even thinking like that? Soft mentality!
 
A few more interesting tidbits about Badin and their home grown, in district talent.

Competitive Balance numbers for 2023-24

Football - 87
Baseball - 64

I am not up to speed on how football and baseball CB is calculated, but that seems like a lot of “recruits", or transfers, in to Badin that did not attend parochial schools, or live in the district boundaries, their entire lives.

Football has been a state contender for the last 3-4 years. Baseball is one of the best programs in the state and perennial state contender.

Badin should decide to move on from this coach. They will not, as Sunderman has the AD in his pocket. When he got the job, he hired Melzer on to his staff. That was a great move for job security. If Melzer, the AD, ever tries to discipline him, he can say it is everything that we did when you were on staff for all those years.

I think Sunderman is feeling some heat and frustration from his zero final four appearances. He took over a Roger Bacon program that had just been to two straight final fours. He coached there about 6 years and never got to a regional final. The two years after he left, they went to the regional and the regional final.

He took over a Badin program that had been to the final four 3 times in 8 years and an annual contender. In 16 years he has not not been able to get them to the final four, including several years in d3. The 4 straight losses in the regional finals have worn on him. Next year will probably be his last chance for a few years. The Badin feeder program, where they get all of their players from, is very average in 6-8th grades.

Let’s recap:

Badin CB numbers in other sports is comparable to PM in girls basketball

Sunderman has coached 22 years at two programs coming off 5 final four appearances in 10-12 years. He has zero final four trips.

Badin will do nothing to him, or his program, because the AD was on his staff and is good friends with him.

Badin will be "all in" in making the final four next year. If PM opts up to play d1, I would think Badin would be the preseason favorite. Not sure going after the PM program was a smart move.
 
I was at the game, these coaches have to have some history, you could see it and feel it during the entire game. Kinda thought something was going to happen in the handshake lines but nothing other than what looked like some words exchanged.

PM did not call off the press at all, even up by almost 50. Their coach was yelling to foul in the 4th quarter so the clock would keep running, he made a sub at almost every dead ball and told his players to walk over to the sidelines so the clock would run, he was even clearly waving them to stop and walk, again up almost 50.

Dont know what it is, but there has to be some history here

Badins coach is not the most likeable guy and these comments certainly dont help his case. Most people simply dont like him and he has earned that.
 
I was at the game, these coaches have to have some history, you could see it and feel it during the entire game. Kinda thought something was going to happen in the handshake lines but nothing other than what looked like some words exchanged.

PM did not call off the press at all, even up by almost 50. Their coach was yelling to foul in the 4th quarter so the clock would keep running, he made a sub at almost every dead ball and told his players to walk over to the sidelines so the clock would run, he was even clearly waving them to stop and walk, again up almost 50.

Dont know what it is, but there has to be some history here

Badins coach is not the most likeable guy and these comments certainly dont help his case. Most people simply dont like him and he has earned that.
Badin’s coach made comments in the newspaper during the regular season about Purcell recruiting. I’m sure that fueled the fire.
 
I was at the game, these coaches have to have some history, you could see it and feel it during the entire game. Kinda thought something was going to happen in the handshake lines but nothing other than what looked like some words exchanged.

PM did not call off the press at all, even up by almost 50. Their coach was yelling to foul in the 4th quarter so the clock would keep running, he made a sub at almost every dead ball and told his players to walk over to the sidelines so the clock would run, he was even clearly waving them to stop and walk, again up almost 50.

Dont know what it is, but there has to be some history here

Badins coach is not the most likeable guy and these comments certainly dont help his case. Most people simply dont like him and he has earned that.
PM coach presses everyone full court whether they are up 50 or not- the full game--he was doing it at the District game at Mason vs. Thurgood Marshall who was out of the game quickly just like Badin. Some fans from Thurgood and other schools waiting to play were on Mosley "to back off to at least 1/2 court" as it was a running clock early in the 3rd qtr---he finally did in the 4th qtr. Mosley will say "that's the way we play for 32 minutes" but its really an excuse to run it up and get big numbers for your stars----there is a way to win gracefully for Mosley, just like Sundermann needed to lose gracefully to PM. Fault on both sides of this Archdiocese mess---need 2 state tournaments in Ohio---one for Private and Open enrollment public schools and one for Public schools with borders.
 
PM coach presses everyone full court whether they are up 50 or not- the full game--he was doing it at the District game at Mason vs. Thurgood Marshall who was out of the game quickly just like Badin. Some fans from Thurgood and other schools waiting to play were on Mosley "to back off to at least 1/2 court" as it was a running clock early in the 3rd qtr---he finally did in the 4th qtr. Mosley will say "that's the way we play for 32 minutes" but its really an excuse to run it up and get big numbers for your stars----there is a way to win gracefully for Mosley, just like Sundermann needed to lose gracefully to PM. Fault on both sides of this Archdiocese mess---need 2 state tournaments in Ohio---one for Private and Open enrollment public schools and one for Public schools with borders.
That would change the landscape dramatically. Out of the 658 High Schools in Ohio, 507 have open enrollment to any district, 41 have open enrollment to adjacent districts and 110 have closed enrollment. If it was separate tournaments the way you're proposing, you'll just see more kids transferring out of the closed enrollment schools.
 
If OHSAA schools pass the proposal to allow schools to play up to D-1....PM better be at the front the line.
 
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