Celtics great Bill Russell passes away at 88
- Thread starter Yappi
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arizonawildcat
Well-known member
The greatest player to have ever held a basketball. No Jordon, no Lebron, just Russell.
Orin Swift
Well-known member
30ppg and 28rpg in 94 games, compared to his career average of 30.1ppg and 22.9 rpg.
That said, he only averaged 19ppg and 26.1rpg against Russell in 12 Finals games (1963-64 Finals, 1968-69 Finals). Russell said he knew Wilt could dominate him and so he would let Wilt score from time to time. He thought if he played defense too hard and push Wilt too much, Wilt would take it as a challenge and demolish him. Interesting tactic that seemed to have worked out well.
That said, he only averaged 19ppg and 26.1rpg against Russell in 12 Finals games (1963-64 Finals, 1968-69 Finals). Russell said he knew Wilt could dominate him and so he would let Wilt score from time to time. He thought if he played defense too hard and push Wilt too much, Wilt would take it as a challenge and demolish him. Interesting tactic that seemed to have worked out well.
That is interesting. Russell was obviously an exceptionally smart player as well as being a great basketball player. He always had the advantage of playing with the more talented cast, though. I have to believe if Wilt and Russell switched teams that Wilt would have all the rings.
In another interesting stat, Ohio’s own great Jerry Lucas averaged 18.3 ppg/18.3 rpg in 52 head to head games vs Bill Russell. Bill averaged 13.0 ppg/22.6 rpg in the 52 games. Even though Lucas was on some very good Cincinnati Royals teams I’m sure the W-L is lopsided in Russell and the Celtics favor. Too bad the NBA left Cincy. It’s a good basketball town.
Kyle_E_Woyote
Centerville Elks
Jerry Lucas at forward and Bill Russell at center didn't match up head-to-head against each other, but interesting stats. I saw Lucas and the "Big O" Oscar Robertson playing for the Royals at the Cincinnati Gardens. Those games were great.
Yeah, but Jerry was always the Royals best front court player. The Royals had some great players and teams, but like everyone else back then…the Celtics were the roadblock to glory.
I don’t agree with this…and it reminds me of a lot of the talk over the years by Lebron apologists (surrounded by weak players, allegedly, when he would lose).
I became cognizant of the NBA in around 65-66. My Dad loved the Celtics and was a great admirer of Russell, the player, but more the man. Dad would do crazy Heinsohn shot imitations in the TV room. He spoke of the great D of Satch Sanders and KC Jones; Sam Jones’ great shot and Havlicek’s stamina and all around great play. But Russell…his comments were different…Russell was a leader. My father admired him.
Chamberlain…maybe the greatest talent in the history of the league. Russell, 6’9”, was small next to him. But Wilt was flaky, not a good teammate…not liked by his teammates. The 67-68 76ers…Hal Greer, Matt Goukas, Luke Jackson, Billy Cunningham, Chet Walker, Wilt…GREAT TEAM. 70-71 Lakers…West, Goodrich, Elgin, Hairston, Wilt…another GREAT team.
Boston had talent. Wilt’s teams often had as much or more.
You named the two times when Wilt did play on the more talented teams and he won.
Wrong! ?
I mentioned 68 and 71. He won, with those players, in 67 and 72.
I may spin but I’m not inaccurate ?. Hey, the point, that I stand by…#1. He was, by far, the best player for about 12 years. He won twice. He played on many very good teams, partly because they had him.
Nice! Now what drives the comparison to LeBron?
I think both are underachievers and not particularly good teammates. And then there’s this whole narrative about being surrounded by weak teammates…galling with Lebron, I think, because he always has preferred one dimensional mates
Orin Swift
Well-known member
Lebron has lived In CA’s head rent free for about 2 decades now.
I wonder how much he gives back to SVSM? I’m guessing a pretty good chunk. At least that’s a good thing.
Orin Swift
Well-known member
The best player he played with for the first stint with Cleveland was Anderson Varejoa.
The team he led to his first Finals was awful. He obviously carried them as far as possible. The Spurs were far superior. That Pistons team the Cavs beat that year was very good.
Nah…my kids will tell you I’ve long passed on from my Lebron obsession. Haven’t changed my overall opinion of him though.
Orin Swift
Well-known member
It’s not unfair to say Lebron has underachieved, he struggled in back to back playoffs against Boston and then the Magic and we of course all know about his performance against the Mavs. But outside of those three years I’m not sure I’d say he was a habitual underachiever. And against Boston, I’m not sure what more he really could have done. It’s just no surprise CA figured out a way to bring LeBron into the thread about Bill Russell’s passing.
So, where were all these great players, lining up to play with the best player in the world? Far as I can tell, only one top 10 player ever came to Lebron…Anthony Davis. And one in the top 25(?)…Love. Westbrook, I guess, is one more.
And, of course, there’s the whole uglification of the game (and the attendant drop in interest) that Lebron has caused…though I thought this year‘s playoffs were a major improvement.
Orin Swift
Well-known member
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
Bill Russell is the greatest winner the game of basketball will ever see. Besides the 11 NBA championships in 13 seasons, his San Francisco Dons won the NCAA title in two of his three college seasons (no freshman eligibility in those days)...and he won an Olympic gold medal in the amateur era. Incredible.
Lebron's legacy is winning a championship in Cleveland against a generationally and probably all-time great opponent in the Warriors. Overall playoff career I'd consider to be a mixed bag with many oddities...a lot of contrast in style with seven Finals appearances against very motion-oriented Warriors and Spurs teams that are less common in this era. He's probably fortunate he didn't go 0-7 against them (Ray Allen shot, Draymond Green suspension). The roster construction and style of play methods he's preferred since the Miami days aren't conducive to winning a 7 game series against legit championship caliber teams IMO.
Lebron's legacy is winning a championship in Cleveland against a generationally and probably all-time great opponent in the Warriors. Overall playoff career I'd consider to be a mixed bag with many oddities...a lot of contrast in style with seven Finals appearances against very motion-oriented Warriors and Spurs teams that are less common in this era. He's probably fortunate he didn't go 0-7 against them (Ray Allen shot, Draymond Green suspension). The roster construction and style of play methods he's preferred since the Miami days aren't conducive to winning a 7 game series against legit championship caliber teams IMO.
?Can’t elaborate or improve on that…though I think it goes back to the beginning
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
It probably does, but at least by the coach-oriented lens I try to view the game by it became glaringly obvious to me starting in Miami against the Spurs. The Spurs got a lot out of late prime and end of career stars in those matchups due to their style...Miami mostly got whatever LeBron got out of being individually more talented than everyone else on the court.
For the most part, IMO you need to be decisively more talented to win over a series playing the game the way he plays...there's little room for error against similar/more talented groups that are more team like. I think the Finals record bears that out.
Lebron is a great passer. Many equate that with being a great team player. He’s not. He’s never trusted his teammates enough to play a 5 man, ball moving offense, where he gives up the ball, cuts, etc. He will throw a great pass to an open guy in a two man set as the shot clock runs down.