Aviator Tradition

Alliance41

New member
Will Alliance High School football ever play competitive football again? I don’t mean playing at 5-5 against teams such as: Marlington, Minerva, Louisville, West Branch, or Canton South. Canton McKinley, Massillon Washington, Stuebenville, Barberton, Akron Hoban Arch Bishop, Niles McKinley, Akron St. Vincent Arch Bishop, Cincinnati Elder, Lima Senior, Cleveland Benedictine, Toledo Scott and Warren Harding just to name a few? This was tradition not mediocrity.

The football program can only get better when you compete aginast better competition!

FA
 
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I would love to see Alliance and Barberton play again. Terrific history between those two.
 
Alliance41, we have to be realist.......we have about 900 students where most of the school you mention have 1500 or more with the exception of Barberton, Niles and the parochioal schools
 
chocolatecity

I dom't think your male enrollment numbers at the specific Ohio high schools cited is correct. The point is, major college recruiters take note on an equal basis at the athlete's grades, skill sets, the teams win-loss column and the caliber of scheduled competition; but not at school enrollment. However, for the sake of discussion, let's take your enrollemt size argument that you say affects a schools ability to compete against better competition. Alliance High School has an estimated male enrollment of 329 (Class AA): Steubenville High School 270 (AA);Struthers High School 284 (AAA); East Liverpool High School 291 (AAA); Mansfield Sr. High School 433 (AAA); Benedictine 326 (AA); Barberton High School 449 (AAA);Archbishop Hoban 329 (AA);Washington High School 266 (AAA- Independent);Niles McKinley High School 320 (AA);Canton McKinley High School 689 (AAA);St Vincent St Mary 244 (AA);Warren Harding High School 539 (AAA);Upper Sandusky High School 225 (AAA); Toledo Waite High School 367 (AAA) and Toledo Scott High School 231 (AAA). According to my research, Alliance has just opted to be non competitive by playing weak programs as noted in my first report. This means less player visibilty, reduced fan interest, less gate and fewer college scholarship opportunities. This may have been the reason for the exit of a few kids like S. Pittman Canton Mckinley and Brionte Dunn Canton Glenoak (2012 Ohio State). Who else will jump ship? Believe me chocolatecity, I am being realistic and speaking as a former player for the Aviators in the 1960's. The expectations were high and required us to compete against the best in Ohio. This tradition was handed down by the late Dr. George Wilcoxon and then Melvin C. Knowlton, Gene Nara and Julius Tonges; however, it has now been breached. The edict, you schedule the best competition and win-loose or draw you play hard! If you were fortunate enough to be selected as "All Stark County and or All Ohio," without question you were among the state's elite.

I love the Aviators and always will, but when you play at a non-competitive level you become non-competitive no matter what the school enrollment!

FA
 
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Alliance41, I too am a former Aviator who played in the '70's but still live Aliinace...The timetable you discuss were probably the golden age of Alliance football when Alliance played in the AAC...but starting in 1965 Alliance did not compete that well against those teams you mentioned which started Alliance's demised against the big wigs and started our migration into the Federal League...With the decline of jobs and the closing of steel mills, people started leaving Alliance..Although we had some good runs in the Fed we didn't have enough as enrollment started to drop..the drop led us to playing in div 2 as well as div 3 in 2004...AS far as fewer scholarships....if you can play....they will find you....my friend Bill Green, who scouts for Bucknuts tells me that all the time.....the trouble with some of the Alliance athletes right now is grades not the football field....Now I too would like a full house at the Aviators games as well as the athletes....and maybe an upgrade of non-league games maybe the shot the Aviators need....but they played Willoughby South a few years ago as an opener and got embarrassed....Alliance had a real spiral in 2000's and Coach Schott is starting to put the pieces back together....stay with him and continue to support him and I think you will see results.....
 
Chocolatecity

It’s great to know you were an Aviator in the 1970’s. Although, Alliance did not become a member of the ACC until 1968, when they played the so-called “big wigs,” but were higly competitive. To say that Alliance could not compete against the “big wigs” starting in 1965, is a non-truism. As I last remember, the verb compete in “Merriam-Webster’s Ninth Edition” dictionary is defined as: to go, to-seek-to strive consciously or unconsciously for an ojective or to be in a state of rivalry. I don’t believe I said in order to compete you had to win them all, but there is one thing for sure, you will get better. If you played Aviator football in the 1970’s as you state, I don’t think coach Mel Knowlton, Gene Nara nor Julius Tonges would have agreed with your thinking. Starting with your selected year of 1965, I recall that the Aviators were only 18 points or three (3) touchdowns away from having an 8-2 football season vs. finishing 4-6. Here is the breakdown: Struthers 12, Alliance 8; Warren Harding 15- Alliance 6, Akron St. Vincent 13, Alliance 8 and Canton Mckinley 15, Alliance 14. This is nothing more than competitive football. When Alliance elected to later participate in the Federal League and now the Northeastern Buckeye Conference, they became less competitive and lost the school tradition.

The decline of jobs and the closing of steel mills is not only an Alliance epidemic, but a National one as well. People started leaving not only Alliance; but also Youngstown, Warren, Niles, Akron, Canton and other area cities. As indicated in my 9-9-11 report, school enrollment is not the problem with Alliance Football. You also stated, “AS far as fewer scholarships if you can play they will find you.” Chocolatecity, you are talking like an idealist. If you get no high visibility as a player you must not only find a college on your own, but once you do, you must show case extraordinary skills during winter workout sessions and spring practice. If you don’t get the eye, then you can forget it! In the 1950’s and 60’s which you wouldn’t remember, there were several great Aviators who were over looked by Class 1-A colleges such as: Homer Young, Bobby Brown, Bob Kennedy, Dave Trieff, Lee Wolf, Al Paone, Lamar Dunn, Henry “Skip” Waters, Marrion ‘Plunky” Young, Larry Grimes, Charles Babb, Dave Cade and Win Young just to name a few. If today's players don’t have the grades that is a double “Whammy” which means they can just move on.

I think Alliance needs to become an independent like the Massillon Tigers. This way they can select the difficulty of their opponent schedule and compete for a State Championship outside of League play! I will guarantee you that it will generate more interest, gate and scholarship opportunities. Alliance’s inability to compete against Willoughby South a few years ago was due to having not played at that level for some time.

Chocolatecity, this is not a personal thing. Mike Schott or any other Alliance coach will have to meet the challenge if the Aviators desire regain state and national attention. I know of a high school located in Flint Michigan called Powers Catholic. They are a class C school, but in the 1980’s they played a school named Detroit Brother Rice a class A power and took them to the wood shed. One of their star players Todd Light went on to Notre Dame and played for head coach Lou Holtz. He became a two (2) time All American and a high round draft choice in the NFL.

FA
 
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Yes I played all three years for Gene Nara....and for me it wasn't my thinking but to me it took a total team effort to be competitve with our schedule...I do remember the 60's because my dad would take me to the games as a youngster and I went to the game as a pre teen and teen later in that decade...I saw the big wins in '61, '62 and '63 and I also seen how our AAC schedule hurt our win total but the interest of Alliance playing these games kept the stands full.

As for me, you said Coach Nara would not have accepted my thinking...I thought like every other Aviator, that we could win any game we played. As a sophomore I started on the 6th team and ended up on the second team on a 3-7 team with one AAC win against Harding. My junior year we went 5-5 with 1 AAC win against Steubenville and my senior year we went 2-8 with NO AAC wins. I was very proud to be an Aviator but not proud of our accomplishments on the field......personally it worked out for me as my junior year I was All-county and senior year I was All-county, All-NEO and All-Ohio HM which got me a scholarship to Ohio....but we were overmatched alot by their best players and ours which was very frustrating.

After my graduation, Coach Graham came to town and things got worse, two 1-9 years with a 75-0 loss to McKinley his last year......then it was Juice's turn from '76 -'80......now Coach Tonges had a good year in '76...(7-3 I believe) with a 6-3 win in Massillon and a 5-5 season in '77 with a 8-7 win against McKinley but then two years that ultimately led to the end of his career at Alliance.

The '80's Coach Cockely came to town with a young team in '81 but then came the end of the AAC....now I would have been the first to not like us going into the FED because I too was an old AAC guy but it did blow life back into the program....the '83 team filled the stands to capacity with their unbeaten season as well as other years in the decade which produced 2 league championships and a few near misses..also players like Chris Zurbrugg (Mich), Danny Howell (Wisc),Sean Chisolm (Toledo),Trey Nicholson (Oregon St), Tim Shedrick(Utah St), Dan Boring (Marshall) and Perry Bell (who could of went anywhere) and others played in the Fed and got bigtime scholarships (No matter where you are they will find you) from major universities.

Cockley last year was the '88 season where he went 4-6 with Mike Lyons (Akron) then came Coach Thomas who had three tough years in the Fed with his last year going 6-4 with a win at Niles but even through those years the stadium stayed full....Coach Dorm came for 1 year in '92 and finsihed with a 8-2 record and a 5-1 in the Fed with the only blemish in the league being a 21-14 overtime loss to Perry and the other loss was a opening game 17-9 loss to a 5-5 Massillon team. That team was led by Tamiko Payton (OSU) and Mark Black (Kent/Mount) who led a host of Aviators on the All-FED team.

Coach Kuceyeski coached 2 years '93 and '94 and went 4-6 and 3-7 and the teams were led by George Cameron (Akron). Coach Cockley returned in '95 and coached until '99...he won another league title in '96 led by Louis Banks (Akron) and that was as a Division 2 team in a Division 1 league. '97 he went 7-3 and barley missed the playoffs led by juniors EJ LIlly (3rd all-time rusher in Stark county, Cincinati) and Ryan Duchon (Clarian).......'98 the A's went 5-5 with those two greats and then the bottom fell out with a 2-8 team and the FED was not kind to Aviators as they lost by an average of 49-7 in the league but the team had Larry Kinnard (OSU/MOUNT)

Then came Coach Zurbrugg, who had 1 league in 3 years....his last team in '02 had 19 players on it trying to compete in the FED ....the stadium became empty during his stint which ultimately became the end of our affilation with the FED.....Coach Kuceyeski returned as coach in '03 as a independent the first year (I think went 4-6) then the school joined the MAC (and was D 3) and won the league title in '04 led by Kendall Smith-Clark (Mich ST), Troy Paisley (Louisville) and Banks (Indiana) ....3 players on a small D3 team who garnered big scholarships (they will find you)....In '05 Alliance join the NBC and also won the league led by Charles Babb (Colgate) and Da'ron Taylor (Findlay)....Kuceyeski coached till '07 which included the 77-28 drubbing to Marlington in '06......

Which brings us to Schott, who basically must throw life back into the program with the kids and the community....Dunn (OSU) left because of academic reasons.....Sa'Von Pittman was not an Alliance guy and never attended ACS....Steve Miller's (OSU) parents left Alliance while he still was in grade school.....but a throng of kids left when the housing was being rebuilt on Pike Street and moved to Canton, those kids would have made a different in the fortunes of AHS football...

Alliance41, like you say its not a personal attack on you but Alliance had had a tough time competing on the level you say we should...But no matter what level we are competing in I expect us to be competitive.....but the people living in the glory years of Alliance football must accept where we are today...We are NOT a big high school anymore and alot of other schools are seeing the same things....Massillon is 2 votes from being a FED member...McKinley is in the FED....Warren Harding is not the powerhouse it once was......Steubenville is playing alot of smaller schools in eastern Ohio and WV to pad stats and run through the Division 3....Niles have not been among the powers since the '60's....East Liverpool had their fist winning season for a while last year....but the thing with the top 4 I mentioned is their community pours support into the programs and those programs have that refuse to lose mentality even if the competition is lesser.....
thanks for reading

GK
 
Chocolatecity

To sum it all up, in your report you state that Brionte Dunn (OSU) left Alliance because of academic reasons and Sa'Von Pittman was not an Alliance person and never attended ACS. Then, why would Ohio State tender him a scholarship offer for 2012, if they know there are academic problems? Additionally, the University of Pittsburg came calling as well.

Also, I do not know a “Sa'Von Pittman,” but I do know Scott Pittman Jr. (Nephew). He did attend ACS at the elementary level, but moved to Canton with his mom to attended Timken city Schools (AAA) to get high-level visibility in football. When he entered high school, he elected to attend Mckinley and played for the “Dogs.” In addition, he did not have academic problems.

As I said previously, I do agree with your last paragraph that other cities and their respective high schools are experiencing population erosion and enrollment attrition because of a change in US industry and business demographics to a more Globalized world. Therefore, everyone is shooting par on the population level. I also agree that the top four (4) schools Canton McKinley, Warren Harding and Steubenville are generating stronger community support, but they always have because of strong tradition. If you haven’t already done so, check out the teams and their respective websites and then look at the Alliance Aviator Football Home-site.

Lastly, you always strive to compete at a higher level if you are to get better!

GK----this was healthy mental exercise and dialogue.

Thanks,
FA
 
Yes it is FA.....and I love talking football.....you are right about the websites....reason no fan support and no football only booster club....Alliance has one booster club...the Sports Network....who takes care of ALL sports....Now there is a group on Facebook call Alliance Football, who are alumni who are trying to generate interest in the program and start a football only booster...we will see how that goes....

I also check the schedules of the top (3) we talked about....Massillon plays a D-3 (Buchtel, 0-3), D-2 (Maumee, 2-1), Woodson DC (perennial win for Ohio teams) and Akron Firestone (0-3).........Steubenville plays Buchtel (0-3), East liverpool (0-3), 2 WV teams, 2 NY teams, 1 Maryland team and a Canadian team.......Warren Harding plays Youngstown East (0-3), Howland (D-2, but good), Cleve Shaw (terrible), Bedford ( terrible) and Warrensville Hts (terrible)......plus they play each other ( except Warren and Steuby)....
So really these schedules are watered down also....

As for Brionti (cousin), his academics has been highly elavated since enrolling in GlenOak, ( the HS was given an Excellent with Distinction on their report card....the highest in the state) his grade weren't bad at Alliance just given more opportunities at Glenoak...Never said there were "problems but reasons"

thanks again FA!!
GK
 
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GT: I will be in Alliance sometime Friday afternoon on 9-23-11. If you are interested in talking more about Alliance football, it would be a pleasure to meet with you over breakfast (Bob Evens-State Street) on Saturday morning 9-24-11, between 8:30 & 9:00. Let me know what you think no later than 5:00 pm EST on Thursday 9-22-11.

Thanks,
FA
 
FA- sorry I missed your text... I coach High School football so Saturdays (especially mornings) are bad for me...Maybe next time you are in town....peace
 
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