Raider6309
Well-known member
Basically every good team gets recruits. The home grown teams get beat out early and the AAU teams take over in regional play
Africentric?
- Thread starter Oliver24
- Start date
That is not an accurate statement in Div 4. Over the last 10 years, of course other than AC, are not recruiting and still very good. D4 Minster, Fort Loramie, Tri-Village, Legacy Christian could play and beat numerous Div 2/3 teams and have done so. Toledo Christian is up there also but they did end up with one of the better players in the state.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
I'm not sure about the current state of the Tri-Village girls program, but some of the better boys teams they've had in recent history I wouldn't exactly call home grown from posts that have been previously made on these boards. That school has gotten their fair share of talented kids to transfer in from neighboring districts in Darke and Preble counties.
Like some of the schools in more urbanized settings that seem to be a magnet for talent, in their rural patch on the Ohio/Indiana border Tri-Village stands out as being much more successful and as having a much stronger tradition than what's around them. Do they recruit? I have no idea, but just because some move-ins occur doesn't mean anything nefarious is going on. The talented and more so motivated parents seem to be good at finding the best opportunities. That's what's really being complained about in regards to Africentric. Columbus, just like most city leagues, is chock full with a ton of horrible teams with limited competition, and for good players at those schools, extremely limited competition in practice. Because the school is "selective enrollment" due to being a concept school based around accumulating college credit, anyone in the Columbus district can go there if they qualify for admission. The enrollment process that's meant to make it a better urban educational school also makes it easy to stack talent in a case like this, whether or not a coach is intentionally recruiting it. To a lesser extent than most urban schools, their enrollment count is probably still slightly inflated and they should be safely in D3 and depending on the year pushing the boundary for getting down to D4.
Like some of the schools in more urbanized settings that seem to be a magnet for talent, in their rural patch on the Ohio/Indiana border Tri-Village stands out as being much more successful and as having a much stronger tradition than what's around them. Do they recruit? I have no idea, but just because some move-ins occur doesn't mean anything nefarious is going on. The talented and more so motivated parents seem to be good at finding the best opportunities. That's what's really being complained about in regards to Africentric. Columbus, just like most city leagues, is chock full with a ton of horrible teams with limited competition, and for good players at those schools, extremely limited competition in practice. Because the school is "selective enrollment" due to being a concept school based around accumulating college credit, anyone in the Columbus district can go there if they qualify for admission. The enrollment process that's meant to make it a better urban educational school also makes it easy to stack talent in a case like this, whether or not a coach is intentionally recruiting it. To a lesser extent than most urban schools, their enrollment count is probably still slightly inflated and they should be safely in D3 and depending on the year pushing the boundary for getting down to D4.
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realball4468
Member
As long as there is NO shot clock...there is a chance for non-recruiters.
Recruiting has always existed. Obviously, a lot more of it now and AAU expedited the process.
Recruiting has always existed. Obviously, a lot more of it now and AAU expedited the process.
ayCC!
NWO Realignment Enjoyer
Toledo Christian's girls basketball team landed a local D1 recruit who transferred there after Zia Cooke left Toledo Rogers. The circumstances regarding her "transfer" are more than dubious. Their entire team has been beating up on everyone inside the TAAC for the last two years and has regularly beaten D2 teams and some D1's too. Madison Royal-Davis is instrumental in that.
Obviously I'm not one to throw rocks at glass houses, but hearing some of the details about what her dad wanted from the school's he was selling his daughter to are insane.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
The tournament doesn't really need any more divisions to water it down and make the competition crappier. Instead of the competitive balance initiative that I'd argue has failed tremendously in its mission, every school should have been given the option to "move up" as many divisions as they'd wish in any given sport with the ability to reevaluate each time the enrollment numbers are totalled. For anyone in the lower divisions that has huge selective enrollment advantages or that is actively recruiting, going up the food chain a notch or two would be a carrot to make their program even more desirable.
Who's in your hallways matters much more than the number of bodies in the hallways when it comes to top-end success. This is why math-based solutions to come up with enrollment multipliers fail. Moving teams up automatically for prolonged success fails because there'd be a lot of criers in MAC land and at similar schools that would find it to be unfair that some of their "homegrown" teams that have their own tremendous demographic advantages would be getting bumped up. In a "success" based model, somebody like Ft. Loramie would almost never be playing D4 girls basketball.
Who's in your hallways matters much more than the number of bodies in the hallways when it comes to top-end success. This is why math-based solutions to come up with enrollment multipliers fail. Moving teams up automatically for prolonged success fails because there'd be a lot of criers in MAC land and at similar schools that would find it to be unfair that some of their "homegrown" teams that have their own tremendous demographic advantages would be getting bumped up. In a "success" based model, somebody like Ft. Loramie would almost never be playing D4 girls basketball.
I do agree with what you are saying, if I had kids left in school and they went to a bad educational school/bad sports team and they had an opportunity to go to a better school, I would do everything I could to get my child into that school. I dont have the answers but I do also understand how it is hard for a schools like Versailles Ohio and some of the smaller town schools to compete with AC. I dont believe the Tri-Village girls team was recruited like the boys team but they have not made it out of regionals. No different than Toledo Christian, yes they recruited Davis, but again, they did not make it out of Regionals last year. Corner Stone Christian was a recruited team, they have not won state. My point is, the smaller home grown schools are still winning D4 for the most part.
14Red
Well-known member
I've not studied Africentric or how they enroll, but from where I stand, I don't know that they do anything wrong. Today, a kid can go to virtually any school their parents enroll them in, especially in the city schools where there are no districts. And anyone who's been involved or followed AAU and travel sports knows the pull a coach or group of kids can have.
The downside I see for a school like Africentric is what if you bring in 15 great girls basketball players? They all can't play, actually only about half are going to get significant minutes, so do some leave? I certainly understand the frustration as many of these rural smaller town schools have kids who are home grown and have gone to one school their entire lives.
But from a "fair" standpoint, there's nothing wrong going on.
The downside I see for a school like Africentric is what if you bring in 15 great girls basketball players? They all can't play, actually only about half are going to get significant minutes, so do some leave? I certainly understand the frustration as many of these rural smaller town schools have kids who are home grown and have gone to one school their entire lives.
But from a "fair" standpoint, there's nothing wrong going on.
Raider6309
Well-known member
The schools you mentioned also use the rules to their advantage
In what manner? I am confused by that statement?
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
For a few of those schools like Minster, Fort Loramie, and Ottoville, they have a lot of natural advantages compared to a typical rural small town school, whether it's an excellent localized gene pool (very high percentage of Germanic bloodlines in west central Ohio, and hence, a disproportionately large number of people that are tall and physically built), very low poverty, a lot of social stability between two parent households and very high rates of church attendance, and 95+% of the kids going to school together all the way through from kindergarten through senior year. It's extremely predictable that virtually all of the kids you're working with at camps and developing at the youth and junior high levels will attend your high school.
I'd be highly confident in guessing there isn't any inherent rule breaking via recruiting going on at those places. Those schools are athletic gold mines with who they have walking their hallways and the high levels of athletic participation they're able to drum up with all of the positive demographic factors in those communities. The only advantage they're gaming from the rules is that it's almost guaranteed that the 7-8 best girls basketball players they can drum up every year are going to be way better than the best 7-8 players from the small rural schools in other parts of the state.
I'd be highly confident in guessing there isn't any inherent rule breaking via recruiting going on at those places. Those schools are athletic gold mines with who they have walking their hallways and the high levels of athletic participation they're able to drum up with all of the positive demographic factors in those communities. The only advantage they're gaming from the rules is that it's almost guaranteed that the 7-8 best girls basketball players they can drum up every year are going to be way better than the best 7-8 players from the small rural schools in other parts of the state.
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nwwarrior09
Well-known member
There's a good point here regarding team depth, but as someone that's seen some extremely pitiful inner-city girls teams a stud player is probably better off being the 9th or 10th best player at a school like that as opposed to being the best player on one of the many terrible teams in their city league.
Only five are playing at a time, but for the majority of their games there's plenty of playing time to go around as they have a lot of blowouts. The daily practice situation is the real gamebreaker to me. At a place like Africentric you have several players to push yourself against and can get serious competition in small group drills and 5-on-5. A good player on a bad city league team isn't getting pushed by anyone in practice individually and definitely not in group drills or going 5-on-5. It's entirely the kid pushing themselves and being pushed by the coach. That alone to me is a very valid reason for a good player coming up through the youth or junior high ranks to seek their way out of a bad neighborhood program and to find their way to the dominant city program.
14Red
Well-known member
Great points, I'd say for players 1-10 it works great, my guess is players 10-20-25 it doesn't, and each year you have a new crop of kids coming from everywhere. Does that breed competition, absolutely. There's good and bad to it.
gcfqn
Active member
I would like to see schools move up if they choose. There is no doubt Africentric would still be a contender in Div 1.
I've always said the CPS should excuse Africentric from league play and let them play an independent schedule. They already schedule top in state and out of state competition then play over matched city teams the next game.
DOCK - Does International play a city league schedule?
I've always said the CPS should excuse Africentric from league play and let them play an independent schedule. They already schedule top in state and out of state competition then play over matched city teams the next game.
DOCK - Does International play a city league schedule?
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Yeah. International’s Boys plays a City League schedule. Which, IMO, is largely beyond their capabilities (although they did beat Whetstone... LOL.) And Intl’s Girls plays in the City League as well (beating East and Whetstone.)
Agreed that Africentric should be freed from the City League girls’ schedule.
gcfqn
Active member
It so saddened me when the young lady (30) manager at the GW White Castle was killed at work. She had worked there since age 16 and was obviously a very good employee and role model. I believe this happened last summer.
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Wasn’t that long ago, even. October 2020
catscatscats
Well-known member
Why is this only a issue when a public school supposedly does this? But is ok when privates do it
I dont believe there are any private schools dominating D3 or D4.
ayCC!
NWO Realignment Enjoyer
Toledo Christian in boys/girls basketball and Cardinal Stritch in boys basketball.
catscatscats
Well-known member
Maybe not currently in girls basketball but other sports they definitely are. Africentric can’t help what division they are in. They actually lobbied to move up divisions and got OHSAA denied them
strickly_layups
Active member
Here we go again.. maybe your a parent or a fan of a team that just was beaten by Africentric. This has been discussed many of times on this forum for years. Columbus City schools has a lottery system in place. Most of the better basketball players that come out of CPS middle schools go to Africentric for academics and athletics, it is a stem school. Further more and more importantly, the program and school has given multiple African American students the opportunity to attend college and further their education for free. I get it that some may say that they are not on the same playing field as the other small D3 schools. But, most will argue the same for the big school divisions. Private, Catholic, vs Public... Cleary unfair for the public schools right?! Lastly we live in the day in age where growing up in the same school district and playing together up until high school is dinosaur. AAU and club sports dominate high school sports across the board, so what we see now is families taking their kids out of a bad high school program and placing them with a better program. Why? because their kid is an investment. Why punish your child by having them play with a bunch of kids they may grew up with that dont care or the numbers are low. Look at the girls basketball numbers across the state its pretty sad. All the while a family has spent thousands of dollars on club ball and trainers. The parent in my opinion have that right to give their child the best chance to succeed. Its the nature of the beast nowadays. Sorry for the dissertation!!!!
Toledo Christian girls are dominating D4 girls basketball? They have never made it to the final four? They got beat last year in the Regional finals and have lost, I believe about 5 games this year. Yes they might make it to the final 4 this year but that is not a guarantee.
ayCC!
NWO Realignment Enjoyer
Those losses are nearly always to d1-d2 teams. Many of their wins are to the tune of 9X-1X against teams in their actual division/conference, with a couple of them involving TC holding their opponents to single digit points. They may not be "dominant" in you eyes, but they don't really belong in d4 with the state of play there.
Competitive imbalance is a problem of slotting teams to compete with each other based on enrollment size. This went on for years before an attempt was made to count and add enrollment numbers for the purpose of bumping a team up who accepted a lot of students outside their normal bboundaries.
But this didnt really solve the problem because the core of the issue has nothing to do with enrollment size or even transfers, per se.
The core involves the QUALITY of transfers, particularly to lower enrollment schools. There is also an urban/rural factor to it. Africentric fishes in the relative ocean of metro Cbus while the rural schools they compete with in DIII (or esp the years they were DIV) are fishing in farm ponds.
But the quality issue is the biggest thing. If a school gets 5 transfers from an adjacent district that are short, slow, and low-skilled, they are treated the same as elite AAU players - when there is actually a huge difference in terms of the impact they will make on a program.
Africentric always has talent and size that allows them to compete with DI schools. Once they enter the DIII tourney, they are at a significant advantage in the most important things that matter in an athletic contest - size, talent, and athleticism. They are drastically different than the teams they compete with in the tournament based simply on where they are located, that they can select their team, and the larger/better pool of athletes they have to select from.
The solution is simple - slot a school like that in a division where they are qualified and capable of competing.
But there is nothing wrong with Africentric. I'm glad they exist and I like to see them play. But I think it's not hard to see that they should be competing with schools that are capable of acquiring a similar level of talent.
But this didnt really solve the problem because the core of the issue has nothing to do with enrollment size or even transfers, per se.
The core involves the QUALITY of transfers, particularly to lower enrollment schools. There is also an urban/rural factor to it. Africentric fishes in the relative ocean of metro Cbus while the rural schools they compete with in DIII (or esp the years they were DIV) are fishing in farm ponds.
But the quality issue is the biggest thing. If a school gets 5 transfers from an adjacent district that are short, slow, and low-skilled, they are treated the same as elite AAU players - when there is actually a huge difference in terms of the impact they will make on a program.
Africentric always has talent and size that allows them to compete with DI schools. Once they enter the DIII tourney, they are at a significant advantage in the most important things that matter in an athletic contest - size, talent, and athleticism. They are drastically different than the teams they compete with in the tournament based simply on where they are located, that they can select their team, and the larger/better pool of athletes they have to select from.
The solution is simple - slot a school like that in a division where they are qualified and capable of competing.
But there is nothing wrong with Africentric. I'm glad they exist and I like to see them play. But I think it's not hard to see that they should be competing with schools that are capable of acquiring a similar level of talent.
Not sure they are going there for a better education, college readiness scores typically fall into the bottom 25% of the state. Furthermore they consistently score below the district average on state test. Now if you arguing that going there will increase the likelihood of getting a basketball scholarship, I would agree.
The disproportionate number of division 1 scholarship athletes coming out of AFC is startling. Seriously, I've never seen anything like it in my life (Tennessee, Minnesota, Rutgers, Texas Tech, Pittsburgh, Indiana State and an offer from Ohio State to one of their freshman)...just in the past 3 years. There are schools that would never see that in 3 lifetimes.
Only thing that could slow them down is the late covid start this year.
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redfox90
New member
Well I'm hoping the OG lady titans can slow them down on Saturday ?
Whoa, Now I am really confused, the state of play in D4? I would put many of the D4 teams in my area against most D2 and D3 teams in the state of Ohio. D4 teams consistently beat schools in larger divisions where I come from. I will give you Toledo Christian might be dominate in D4 in the Toledo area, but they are not dominate in D4 throughout the State. Fort Loramie and Minster have beaten numerous larger schools this year and many years. To me if you are dominate in D4 you are at least going to make it to the final four, which Toledo Christian never has. I have seen Toledo Christian, yes they MIGHT make it to the final 4 this year but I dont believe they will win it.
nwwarrior09
Well-known member
Dayton area I think Fort Loramie and Minster probably would have beat up on everyone in D1 seeded below the top-6 in the sectional draw this year, and they probably would have been very competitive at worst and likely would have beaten most of the teams seeded 3-6. The only teams I'm confident would beat them and probably decisively were Centerville and Wayne, who were both loaded with D1 talent.
In terms of level of play, both should probably not be in D4. An average D4 public school is not working with anywhere near the caliber of athlete or the quantity in numbers that they have. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of those schools typically have enough numbers to field freshmen teams, the same as most of the other better D3 and D4 programs in the northern Miami Valley and stretching north to around Lima. There are a lot of D2-D4 public schools that are fortunate if they can get 15-16 girls to play in a normal year .
In terms of level of play, both should probably not be in D4. An average D4 public school is not working with anywhere near the caliber of athlete or the quantity in numbers that they have. Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe both of those schools typically have enough numbers to field freshmen teams, the same as most of the other better D3 and D4 programs in the northern Miami Valley and stretching north to around Lima. There are a lot of D2-D4 public schools that are fortunate if they can get 15-16 girls to play in a normal year .
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