ThingsFallApart
Member
South 1-3 looks pretty chalk with Princeton, Mason, and MND winning relatively easily, but how do we feel about South 4 and 5 who will win those?
23-24 SW Ohio
- Thread starter JackAttack99
- Start date
taximama24
Active member
I think I've commented on calls discrepancies twice in my time here...one LE game last year, and this game (both of which the discrepancy was 50%+) AND might I did not bring up as a complaint at the time of the game nor today, literally just as a reason why in comparing which one of MND's two choices based on their two previous games had a chance to have a different outcome without major changes to their game plan that they may not be able to make. Yes Gerton put 28pts on MND consistent with her 25pts in their win vs. Mason two weeks prior. That was kinda the point. And I never said MND choosing Princeton over Mason didn't make sense, I said it made less sense to me than possible rematches from LE choosing Boro or Princeton choosing LW. Obviously MND hopes to play both Mason and Princeton.
And this is literally a forum for discussions just like this, hence the question that started it below. Obviously nobody is trying to influence coaches pics since we didn't start talking about it until after they happened. If you don't like it, Coach Matula, scroll on by.
Coaches know that Wallace tries to take a slot that gives him the latest possible date to play his first game (as long as it doesn't create an even or unfavorable matchup in that first game).
GMC_Leader_10
New member
My original question was why it makes more sense for MND to potentially matchup with a Mason team that just beat Princeton instead of what you thought made more sense. I asked out of curiosity so that you could provide some discussion to the forum with the potential of you enlightening us on what you are seeing that the rest of us aren’t.
Is the foul discrepancy + a great game from Mason’s best player the only reason or are there other reasons? If one of your reasons is because you believe this account is ran by Coach Matula and he doesn’t have anything better to do than YES, I could see your reasoning for playing Mason over Princeton
A lot of tourney experts on here. SW Ohio is wide open. Lakota East got beat up pretty bad last night by WW. Mason barely beat Oak Hills. Princeton and Mason split. MND got beat by Princeton and Mason. Its high school girls basketball, if you have an off night you're going home.
Here is the Regional Tournament Bracket with Power Ratings (according to a different formula than used by OHSAA). Will be updated as regular season finishes and tournament games are played.
Tournament Bracket
Tournament Bracket
Madame Secretary
Active member
What do the numbers represent?
Projected spread and total. Spread for the top team on the bracket. So positive numbers mean the top team is the underdog, negative numbers meaning the top team is the favorite.
Regular season still going.
ECC, GCL, SWOC, SWBL, SBAAC titles all wrapped up
GWOC: Springboro in driver seat, Beavercreek still alive with 2 games left
GMC: Still 4 teams able to win/share the title.
Although I seriously doubt Hamilton could upset Lakota East tonight, which would eliminate Lakota West
Winner of East @ Mason Sat would only have at most 2 GMC losses
Interesting matchups for Lakota West this week with Mason and Princeton.
This should give Fishman insight into how far his young team has actually grown this year.
Very good record (16-4) but haven't really had any BIG wins this season (Princeton was without Gerton or Givens)
East must be so happy Mason won @ Princeton, gives them a shot at the forever elusive 1st GMC Title they've wanted so bad.
Is their window closing, with Blount and Fohl graduating?
Will Mason have let down (trap game) @ West tonight after huge win @ Princeton and before Saturday's, Matula last regular season game and GMC title on the line (outright or co depending on West outcome), very emotional contest vs recent nemesis East?
Davis will get Princeton right in next 2 games (keep Fortson out of foul trouble) and does anyone think Vikings won't STILL be most feared team in SW OH in tourney?
Did Winton Woods send a strong "Don't forget about us" message to SW OH competitors with solid win over Lakota East?
Harrison (9 seed) only beats Hamilton (35 seed) by 3 Monday??????????? Princeton WILL BREEZE thru S1 Section
Is this Goshen's 1st season in D1?
Rooting for exciting injury free games to end the regular season!!
Sectional tourney possible upset and champions predictions after regular season ends
ECC, GCL, SWOC, SWBL, SBAAC titles all wrapped up
GWOC: Springboro in driver seat, Beavercreek still alive with 2 games left
GMC: Still 4 teams able to win/share the title.
Although I seriously doubt Hamilton could upset Lakota East tonight, which would eliminate Lakota West
Winner of East @ Mason Sat would only have at most 2 GMC losses
Interesting matchups for Lakota West this week with Mason and Princeton.
This should give Fishman insight into how far his young team has actually grown this year.
Very good record (16-4) but haven't really had any BIG wins this season (Princeton was without Gerton or Givens)
East must be so happy Mason won @ Princeton, gives them a shot at the forever elusive 1st GMC Title they've wanted so bad.
Is their window closing, with Blount and Fohl graduating?
Will Mason have let down (trap game) @ West tonight after huge win @ Princeton and before Saturday's, Matula last regular season game and GMC title on the line (outright or co depending on West outcome), very emotional contest vs recent nemesis East?
Davis will get Princeton right in next 2 games (keep Fortson out of foul trouble) and does anyone think Vikings won't STILL be most feared team in SW OH in tourney?
Did Winton Woods send a strong "Don't forget about us" message to SW OH competitors with solid win over Lakota East?
Harrison (9 seed) only beats Hamilton (35 seed) by 3 Monday??????????? Princeton WILL BREEZE thru S1 Section
Is this Goshen's 1st season in D1?
Rooting for exciting injury free games to end the regular season!!
Sectional tourney possible upset and champions predictions after regular season ends
Interesting "officiating" in Princeton @ Oak Hills game last evening.
Was anyone there in person to actually hear what happened?
I watched on Oak Hills Youtube
Oak Hills (vastly improved, coach is doing a fantastic job) goes ahead 40-39 in 4th Q and has a legitimate chance to beat Princeton, without Fortson
Kammerer scores on inside post move and does the Angel Reese (you're too small, hand down below her knee running down the court)
1) Official across 1/2 court calls a T on her before she gets to half court
2) Shortly after (next 90 seconds, I think?) Oak Hills post "looks" to get fouled on low post move, after attempting to RB puts both hands to side of head on low block nearest baseline official. He calls a T on her. Could not tell if she said anything
3) Shortly after official at other end of floor throws a fan out of gym (I think, not on video but seemed that way)
I think score eventually gets to 53-40 Princeton
Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
The "too low" self expression thing is common in college, not sure if legal in HS
Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
May have been more egregious than just yelling
Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
Was anyone there in person to actually hear what happened?
I watched on Oak Hills Youtube
Oak Hills (vastly improved, coach is doing a fantastic job) goes ahead 40-39 in 4th Q and has a legitimate chance to beat Princeton, without Fortson
Kammerer scores on inside post move and does the Angel Reese (you're too small, hand down below her knee running down the court)
1) Official across 1/2 court calls a T on her before she gets to half court
2) Shortly after (next 90 seconds, I think?) Oak Hills post "looks" to get fouled on low post move, after attempting to RB puts both hands to side of head on low block nearest baseline official. He calls a T on her. Could not tell if she said anything
3) Shortly after official at other end of floor throws a fan out of gym (I think, not on video but seemed that way)
I think score eventually gets to 53-40 Princeton
Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
The "too low" self expression thing is common in college, not sure if legal in HS
Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
May have been more egregious than just yelling
Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
I was at the game. She had been talking to other players and questioning calls all game. That was the final straw. Oaks Hills played there heart out but couldn't stop from fouling. They played Mason the same way. Kept it close and put Gerton on the free throw line late.
OkolonaBlues
Member
If you get T’d in the state finals (last year), you will certainly get T’d in the regular season. As for as rabbit ears…if you make it personal, they will probably will take it as is…Interesting "officiating" in Princeton @ Oak Hills game last evening.
Was anyone there in person to actually hear what happened?
I watched on Oak Hills Youtube
Oak Hills (vastly improved, coach is doing a fantastic job) goes ahead 40-39 in 4th Q and has a legitimate chance to beat Princeton, without Fortson
Kammerer scores on inside post move and does the Angel Reese (you're too small, hand down below her knee running down the court)
1) Official across 1/2 court calls a T on her before she gets to half court
2) Shortly after (next 90 seconds, I think?) Oak Hills post "looks" to get fouled on low post move, after attempting to RB puts both hands to side of head on low block nearest baseline official. He calls a T on her. Could not tell if she said anything
3) Shortly after official at other end of floor throws a fan out of gym (I think, not on video but seemed that way)
I think score eventually gets to 53-40 Princeton
Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
The "too low" self expression thing is common in college, not sure if legal in HS
Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
May have been more egregious than just yelling
Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
Smarty2022
Well-known member
The Officials shouldn’t engage or remove any Fan. That’s what site management is for. Was it a tall blonde who was removed last night? I heard from some Officiating friends that a tall blonde mother of a Bridgetown Player (Oak Hills Middle School) waited for the Official’s Tonight to give them a piece of her mind after a 30 Point Loss. If this happens to be the same lady as last night I hope the OH AD can set her straight. Waiting and berating Officials after a 30 Point Loss simply can’t be tolerated.Interesting "officiating" in Princeton @ Oak Hills game last evening.
Was anyone there in person to actually hear what happened?
I watched on Oak Hills Youtube
Oak Hills (vastly improved, coach is doing a fantastic job) goes ahead 40-39 in 4th Q and has a legitimate chance to beat Princeton, without Fortson
Kammerer scores on inside post move and does the Angel Reese (you're too small, hand down below her knee running down the court)
1) Official across 1/2 court calls a T on her before she gets to half court
2) Shortly after (next 90 seconds, I think?) Oak Hills post "looks" to get fouled on low post move, after attempting to RB puts both hands to side of head on low block nearest baseline official. He calls a T on her. Could not tell if she said anything
3) Shortly after official at other end of floor throws a fan out of gym (I think, not on video but seemed that way)
I think score eventually gets to 53-40 Princeton
Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
The "too low" self expression thing is common in college, not sure if legal in HS
Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
May have been more egregious than just yelling
Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
T for to small sign, Taunting? College and HS are drastically different now that College Players are being paid imo.
AllSports12
Moderator
- "too low" gesture/or comment is unsporting in nature and should always result in a technical foulInteresting "officiating" in Princeton @ Oak Hills game last evening.
Was anyone there in person to actually hear what happened?
I watched on Oak Hills Youtube
Oak Hills (vastly improved, coach is doing a fantastic job) goes ahead 40-39 in 4th Q and has a legitimate chance to beat Princeton, without Fortson
Kammerer scores on inside post move and does the Angel Reese (you're too small, hand down below her knee running down the court)
1) Official across 1/2 court calls a T on her before she gets to half court
2) Shortly after (next 90 seconds, I think?) Oak Hills post "looks" to get fouled on low post move, after attempting to RB puts both hands to side of head on low block nearest baseline official. He calls a T on her. Could not tell if she said anything
3) Shortly after official at other end of floor throws a fan out of gym (I think, not on video but seemed that way)
I think score eventually gets to 53-40 Princeton
Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
The "too low" self expression thing is common in college, not sure if legal in HS
Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
May have been more egregious than just yelling
Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
- you aren't sure what/if anything was said, but still criticize the official for not understanding the situation?
- when a fan gets an invite to leave early........ it's typically because something that crosses the line of decency, not the typical "call it both ways" silliness, was said to the official.
- just because you don't see coaches getting penalized for being out of the box, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.... saw three of them alone last week. (1 in a game I worked and 2 in games I was observing in)
CometCountry
Well-known member
If anyone took the time to watch the tape of the game they would see that Princeton on two different shots in the 2nd half (Gerton and Harris) upon hitting 3's put up "3 fingers" in the face of Oak Hills defenders and none of the 3 officials who were concerned with a 1 second "too low" signal that occurred 20 feet from the defender and the signalling of a jump ball by an OH player, were able to call T's on Princeton for "taunting" as AllSports12 suggests as "unsporting in nature"----these 3 refs pick and chose what they wanted to call in a 40-39 OH lead with 6 minutes to play. Happens to be that the bald-headed ref called a technical on boys coach Mike Price up at Middletown the previous Friday and maybe was harboring some "ill will" towards OH for anything he could find from players at some point--just happened to be after OH went ahead 40-39. The bald headed ref also worked the Mason vs Princeton game the previous Saturday and poor assigning sends him right back to working another Princeton game on Wednesday---5 games played in the league that night and he's sent back to a Princeton game---very,very poor. Probably the poorest reaction was the bald-headed ref waving to the OH crowd as he left the court as the game ended---unprofessional as can be.
The game at 6:00 left was up for grabs and within 1 minute was a 10 point lead for Princeton---4 tech foul shots and 2 "3's" changed the tight game to a Princeton lead of 50-40---and whoever said "OH kept putting Gerton at the foul line" was not watching---she shot 6 free throws in the 1st half when fouls were 11-3 against OH and she shot 8 free throws in the 2nd half (4 for the T's) and 4 when she was fouled shooting the ball---5 of 6 the 1st half and 6 of 8 the 2nd half---refs determined the game instead of the players.
JackAttack99
Member
I'm not going to comment on particular plays or teams here because it's pointless, but in the games I've watched this season, refereeing seems to be a struggle this season.
The inconsistency of calls and the inability (or unwillingness?) to make big calls in big situations has changed games over the entire season. And more than ever, I've seen patterns of certain coaches and teams (and even players at times) get a different whistle, seemingly because of prestige? That may sound silly and like a losing fan making an excuse, but I've seen it happen in games where there's no rooting interest at all. If you had a conversation with 10 different varsity coaches in the area, I think you'd hear a lot of the same opinion. I know not all here with agree with that though, which is okay.
I understand that the job is thankless and difficult and I'm not a person screaming at officials from the stands. However, I also understand that there's certain officials that every varsity coach hopes isn't assigned to their game because they know it's not going to go well.
AllSports12
Moderator
You commented that you've not seen a coach whacked for being out of the box all season. I responded with three examples of that happening last week alone.
Nowhere did I infer that leeway was never given..... In some gyms it's impossible to stand up and bark at a player/official without being out of the box.
Your words
..... all criticisms (which is fine )- Interesting "officiating" in Princeton @ Oak Hills game last evening.
- Officials take a lot of verbal abuse from fans, BUT they need to understand situations.
- Just questioning, if fan doesn't come out of seat and just yells at official shouldn't Refs not have "rabbit ears"?
- Would have been biggest win in years for Oak Hills, they were playing with "emotion", both T's seemed as quick as a girls Jump Ball call
- If going by actual letter of rules on too low T, coaches are "never" in coaches box anymore but haven't seen T called on that all season.
OkolonaBlues
Member
OkolonaBlues
Member
Officiating has always been good and bad, forever. Unfortunately for an increasing majority, it is easier to hold others more accountable than they hold themselves. Being a victim is a badge of honor for to many of us.
AllSports12
Moderator
Comet, I have to say....... I'm surprised at this assessment. It's not like you to either embellish or just flat out miss what you saw. Most people on here read your comments and can be confident that what you saw is what happened.....
Not the case here...
I took you up on your challenge and took the time to watch the second half....then, after seeing what really happened, I watched the first half because I figured you got the timing backwards on when the 3pt shots occurred..... Well, here's what happened....
-The "too low" gesture was made 6-7 feet from the defender....
- There were 4 successful three point field goals by Princeton in the second half. The only "3" gesture made by a Princeton player was shortly after the FT's made following the "too low" gesture and the shooter and nearest opponent was 15-17ft away..... Hardly in anyone's face.
I went back for the entire game and this "3" gesture was the only one by Princeton player for the entire game. One Oak Hills player (a non shooter) made the gesture during the game as well.
You are better than this
To be fair, you do not know who was available or was working elsewhere that day. You also don't know if this was the result of a last minute change.
Cannot disagree with you here. While it's possible he could have been reacting to an acquaintance communicating with him...... it's still a bad look.
Oak Hills scored 1 point in the last 5:42.
The silly mimicking of college/NBA/WNBA players took mommentum and a 40-39 lead and flushed it down the pipe. Frustration set in and the second technical foul (arguing a foul call.... and we don't know what was said) certainly did not help.
Were the officials perfect? Heck no........ did they determine the game.....
Absolutely not.
ThingsFallApart
Member
Can we drop all the ref talk and just talk about the upcoming playoffs?
Northside24
Member
Do any of you statistical wizards have what the RPI for D1 would look like now that the regular season is over? Would seeding have been much different if the draw was after the season?
D1 Sectional Final Predictions
S1: Harrison v Princeton
Western Brown (12) v Harrison (9) might be best 1st round game of Round 1.
Same 2 teams met in 1st round LY a 45-44 Harrison (11) win over WB (14).
Harrison won 61-34 at H earlier this season
S2: MND vs Milford
Lower half should give some tight contests
S3: Mason v Lebanon
Jordan Mueller out(?) could let Goshen pull the upset and reach sectional final
S4: West Clermont v Kings
See Kings (LY experience) pulling the upset over Lakota West
S5: Winton Woods v Lakota East
This Sectional final should be the best battle in Round 3
Can East, who has played all the top teams close, finally beat one of them this season?
N1: Butler v Springboro
West Carrollton upset over Butler would not be a BIG surprise
N2: Sidney v Bellbrook
Centerville has the pedigree and experience to beat Sidney
Either Sidney or Centerville could give Bellbrook a battle, Great Non Con schedule for Eagles this season should have them battle tested.
N3: Fairmont v Beavercreek
Firebirds had a taste of success last year, will they put it all together, somethings been missing this season but they have the talent
Most interesting teams to keep an eye on:
Oak Hills in S2, Goshen in S3, Lakota West in S4 (Neilson available?), Seton (athletic, so not bad when making shots) and Mt Healthy (athletic) in S5, Sidney in N2 and Chaminade in N3
Opening Night is tonight!!
Good luck to all the teams
Wishing for exciting, injury and controversy free games!!
S1: Harrison v Princeton
Western Brown (12) v Harrison (9) might be best 1st round game of Round 1.
Same 2 teams met in 1st round LY a 45-44 Harrison (11) win over WB (14).
Harrison won 61-34 at H earlier this season
S2: MND vs Milford
Lower half should give some tight contests
S3: Mason v Lebanon
Jordan Mueller out(?) could let Goshen pull the upset and reach sectional final
S4: West Clermont v Kings
See Kings (LY experience) pulling the upset over Lakota West
S5: Winton Woods v Lakota East
This Sectional final should be the best battle in Round 3
Can East, who has played all the top teams close, finally beat one of them this season?
N1: Butler v Springboro
West Carrollton upset over Butler would not be a BIG surprise
N2: Sidney v Bellbrook
Centerville has the pedigree and experience to beat Sidney
Either Sidney or Centerville could give Bellbrook a battle, Great Non Con schedule for Eagles this season should have them battle tested.
N3: Fairmont v Beavercreek
Firebirds had a taste of success last year, will they put it all together, somethings been missing this season but they have the talent
Most interesting teams to keep an eye on:
Oak Hills in S2, Goshen in S3, Lakota West in S4 (Neilson available?), Seton (athletic, so not bad when making shots) and Mt Healthy (athletic) in S5, Sidney in N2 and Chaminade in N3
Opening Night is tonight!!
Good luck to all the teams
Wishing for exciting, injury and controversy free games!!
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Decided to watch the game given all the discussion. I assume these are the two plays in question. One is running away from a player and one is staring one down... Have to disagree with your assessment. Seemed to me that the officials made it as hard as possible for OH to win the game, and Princeton took full advantage of that. Credit to them. OH could certainly have handled the situation a little better.
On to the tournament! Harrison takes down Western Brown by 5. My Tournament Bracket with spreads that I posted last Tuesday had Harrison has a 4.5 pt favorite.
Tomorrow's games
West Clermont (-19) v. Middletown
Mount Notre Dame (-29) v. Sycamore
Attachments
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AllSports12
Moderator
I responded to the specific allegations that......
- twice a Princeton player flashed the "3" gesture "right in the face" of the opponent.
- the "too low" gesture was from 20 feet away
The photos tell a different story.
- only 1 "3" gesture from Princeton
- the opponent (not pcitured) is 2 feet out of bounds and 2 feet from the endline when the "3" went up.
- the "too low" began when the player was 6-7 feet from the opponent.
Amazing that what's claimed on here often differs so much from what actually happened.
Vincent for President
Member
Thanks for the insight - should be a fun tourney to watch!
Just curious why you mention Seton - the GGCL (unlike in Soccer & Volleyball) is not competitive at all and they haven't beaten a team with a winning record. The Mt Healthy game would be interesting/entertaining to watch as they seem like similar schools.
I can see Oak Hills & Lakota West to be included here - they are battle tested in the GMC which is very competitive
Wandered across Seton vs Badin (couple of really,really good players) game on YouTube not long ago and was very surprised how good Seton looked before late turnovers against a hot, good D2 Badin team. Researched they’re stats and they’re not bad “when they make shots”
Kinda like everyone else!
Unsure on their coach, style and why he doesn’t use all their size together more.
No way they could beat WW but read an old post that they played a brutal scrimmage schedule which means they’ve at least seen the size and athleticism of good teams.
Picking all chalk gets boring
Would like to add Fairfield’s Richardson, Middletown’s Jamia Jones, Milford’s Shuluga and West Clermont’s Hale as players to watch.
They all always seem to be on the edge of having really big games.
