#15, 2-6, "Control Own Destiny"...THE PLAYOFFS KINDA SUCK.

Absolutely false.
The OTCA runs the TEAM tournament, the OHSAA does not sponsor the TEAM tournament. What is false about that statement. I posted the list of participants from a recent year for girls tennis for Northeast Ohio. There were 8 participants, there are a lot more than 8 members schools in D-II in Northeast Ohio.
 
Because if the kids weren't pressured to lie, the truth players on bad teams would tell is that they want no part of any more football this year.
THIS!!! The season is long, and the game is physically exhausting and time-consuming. At a certain point, most of the kids are just ready to be done. The people saying "the kids deserve one more opportunity" really just want to see one more game themselves.

It's kind of like a 2005 South Park episode called "The Losing Edge," where the kids are all on a little league team. The dads think the boys are having "the time of their lives," while the kids just want it to be over so they can actually enjoy their summer, and have to come up with a creative way to lose enough so the season ends. (This is also the episode that gave us the Randy Marsh "I thought this was America!" meme)
 
THIS!!! The season is long, and the game is physically exhausting and time-consuming. At a certain point, most of the kids are just ready to be done. The people saying "the kids deserve one more opportunity" really just want to see one more game themselves.

It's kind of like a 2005 South Park episode called "The Losing Edge," where the kids are all on a little league team. The dads think the boys are having "the time of their lives," while the kids just want it to be over so they can actually enjoy their summer, and have to come up with a creative way to lose enough so the season ends. (This is also the episode that gave us the Randy Marsh "I thought this was America!" meme)
I’d argue the elites not wanting to see their team risk injury in a “meaningless” game is a larger camp than those wanting to see one more game. For what it’s worth, Fantastic 50 has thirteen teams in Region 2 with a chance of winning (slim chance in some cases) a regional championship. Enjoyed the reference to one of my favorite episodes of South Park. It comes up every summer when my son has become weary of another baseball game.
 
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1. Magnificat
2. Canfield
3. Cuyahoga Valley Christian Academy
4. Gilmour Academy
5. Hathaway Brown
6. St. John
7. St. Vincent – St. Mary
8. Ursuline
For instance the above is a list of the schools that participated for girls tennis in Northeast Ohio for one division.
For tennis it is split into divisions and then 4 regions per division. One region is Northeast (Cleveland, Akron, Canton and Youngstown), one region is Northwest (Toledo), one region is Southwest (Cincy & Dayton), one region is Southeast and Central (Columbus, Portsmouth, Athens, Marietta etc).
Girls tennis cool.
 
I don't think you can put it in those terms. Teams have to win against those schedules and with just four qualifiers you had probably the best 4 teams in the Region, in all Divisions (too many Divisions) based on WINS versus a tough schedule.
Probably? Despite the evidence of all the teams titles despite being 5-8 seeds?
I have no true problem with 8 teams per Region personally but I like 4 better. I think you get a "truer" State Champion, more often that not "The Best Team in the State" with just 4.
How can it be ‘truer’ when you can avoid playing teams that have a decent chance of beating you? I think the term you’re looking for is ‘easier’.
 
Probably? Despite the evidence of all the teams titles despite being 5-8 seeds?

How can it be ‘truer’ when you can avoid playing teams that have a decent chance of beating you? I think the term you’re looking for is ‘easier’.
No absolutes here for me. Either number would work fine for me. While I personally prefer 4, I did look at the stats that poster "ReganAustinJames" put up, and they definitely point to 8 being a very good number. I have posted on this very thread and "liked" posts that refer to having 8. Nah, definitely not looking for "easier". Top 4 win 78% of State Titles per RAJ's stats so I don't see that as being easier. Those teams s/b harder to beat. Every playoff opponent would be tougher than the previous one in a perfect world. I guess it depends on what level of performance you think should be able to make the field. I like a really elite field, but I recognize I am in the very small minority on that. So the chances of 4 again are about nil. Plus, there are some issues with the Harbin ratings that ought to be addressed before we ever go back to 4 or 8. (We aren't ever going to. in my opinion. This whole debate is just semantics.)

I like 8 a WHOLE lot better than I like 16. Maybe 4 IS too restrictive, as you obviously think it is. Probably it is because of all the unbeaten teams left out. It's kind of a moot point, because I think OHSAA will move in the other direction and have a "play-in" round for everyone under seed # 16. I see that as where we are headed. Harbins used for seeding only; the flaws will be irrelevant if they are no longer determining playoff participants. More games, more money, every Head Coach. AD and Principal happy.
 
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It’s never about anyone on here! In every other HS sport every team gets a chance at the tournament. Football arguably requires the biggest commitment. Why shouldn’t the kids get the experience?
They shouldn't get a chance. Playoffs should mean something. Heck why not let every team play 15 games so the kids get more of an experience?

Getting blasted 70-0 in a 1 v 16 is not a memorable experience.
 
Since the 16 team era.....has it ultimately effected the top teams and whom won titles?

If you say yes, citation required.


I'd rather seen them go with thr 12 as I do feel some worthy teams got left out at the 9-10 range as there's only so much ya can do with a schedule
No worthy team was left out at 8. You should've won more games/beat someone decent to qualify.
 
I don’t understand why people are upset that a 1-9 makes the playoffs.
I keep hearing “It used to mean something to make the playoffs.”
Wrong.
Just making the playoffs was your participation trophy just like it is now.
Win your region then it’s meaningful.
You don’t have to run up the score. Starters get recovery and it gives your third and fourth stringers a chance to get in, in front of the crowd.
To me It’s not a negative. Schools can still opt out if they want.
Qualifying for the playoffs under the old system was not a participation trophy, it was earned.

A 1-9 team making the playoffs is a joke.
 
“We know there are some who want to keep the football postseason to a smaller number of schools, but the postseason tournament gives such a positive experience for our student-athletes, the schools and their communities that we felt strongly about giving that opportunity to more schools to make the playoffs. And football remains the OHSAA sport in which not every team automatically qualifies for the postseason.”

-Doug Ute, OHSAA Executive Director

While a bunch of adults are arguing who "deserves" to be in a playoffs for high school kids sports don't take it so seriously, this ain't the NFL or College Ball; i'm sure the young athletes themselves overwhelmingly would be in favor of having one more game even if it would probably be a blowout, so let them play. This system gives more students an opportunity to go out and play one more game as most will never play football again after high school.
Why limit it to 11? Let them play 20 games, who are you to deny them those opportunities?

One more game is such a lame excuse. You want one more game, earn it or pack it up.

OHSAA acting as if it's in the interest of the student athlete and not their bottom line is ridiculous.

Yes the kid getting one more opportunity to get embarrassed with a running clock is grateful for the experience.
 
Top 4 win 78% of State Titles per RAJ's stats so I don't see that as being easier.
This is the last time I’ll pick on you, but this is an important point. If 22% of the state titles since they went to 8 qualifiers per region were won by 5-8 seeds, it was absolutely easier to win a title without having to play those teams.
 
This is the last time I’ll pick on you, but this is an important point. If 22% of the state titles since they went to 8 qualifiers per region were won by 5-8 seeds, it was absolutely easier to win a title without having to play those teams.
Absolutely! I agree with that & with you 100% on that. How could I not? Any extra game you play, especially against a "live" team (meaning one that if they did beat you, it wouldn't be a huge shock) could cause you to fall out of the tournament. I also did say while I prefer 4, 8 would work.

To have 4 you'd have to adjust for all the flaws of the Harbins, and they aren't all addressable with simple math tweaks. (Who determines the caliber of the Cleveland Senate? Of the Akron City Series? Of the Columbus City League? Of the LEL? etc. etc. Those are judgment calls and people will scream about them.) But any time a team has a good, even great year, and doesn't make it, the cries for 8 (or more) will go up. I see that happening every year without fail so 8 is probably better.

I KNOW that very few prefer 4, that they think very good teams were being left out and RAJ's data supports that. With so much sentiment here and among all the fans, coaches etc. for at least 8, we'll never go back to 4. I'm almost certain that we'll move from 16 to everyone in the not-too-distant future. Money talks. People are going to point to all the other tourneys that let everyone in, in Ohio (let alone states like Indiana that include all of their teams) & say they want in in football too.

I don't agree with that, but I don't run the world either. Oddly enough, OHSAA does not see fit to consult with me. LOL!! ;)
 
Qualifying for the playoffs under the old system was not a participation trophy, it was earned.

A 1-9 team making the playoffs is a joke.
Cmon -people were complaining about teams who scheduled Harbin cows every year. A term that has been since laid to rest.
 
Because the logistics won't allow for it. Every team making the playoffs in 2020 was prescient because of the inherent unpredictability, but under normal circumstances, you'd have to start the season around August 5th if every team were to make the playoffs. You want to watch a game in those temps? I sure don't.

And by week 11, many kids are just ready to be done. My senior year, my team went 6-4, had some high-quality wins, and qualified for the playoffs as a 7-seed, but we all knew we would get smoked by the 2-seed and effectively quit before the game started. If a team like THAT is ready to hang it up, can you imagine how these 2-8/1-9 teams feel?

And in the past, making the playoffs was an accomplishment and meant you had a good season. Now, it's more reflective of the 'participation trophy' problem. Other sports should revert to how football has done things; not the other way around.
You make some pretty good points but I do have to ask if your team was 6-4 was y'all really playing the right sport in the first place with that attitude if you automatically assumed the game is over because they're the second seed why are you even playing sports? Trust me bro I get it being realistic but when you were in high school anything can happen there was a lot of times where 7th and 8th seeds have knocked off the one or the two seeds
 
You make some pretty good points but I do have to ask if your team was 6-4 was y'all really playing the right sport in the first place with that attitude if you automatically assumed the game is over because they're the second seed why are you even playing sports? Trust me bro I get it being realistic but when you were in high school anything can happen there was a lot of times where 7th and 8th seeds have knocked off the one or the two seeds
To answer your question:

- The aforementioned first-round opponent was a big rival of ours, and a team we had beaten earlier in the year at home. It was the one game we had circled on our calendar all season, and we were their only regular season loss. But anyone who followed football in that area knew they were the significantly more talented team, including us.
- We let off the gas a little after that big win, and given that the rematch was going to be at their place, and they now knew where the strengths of our very limited offense were, we knew what the end result was going to be... and the final score only corroborated it. FWIW, this team we played won the regional title, and their star RB played at a Big Ten school and had a nearly decade-long CFL career.
- Lastly, we had gotten a new strength coach the previous winter who completely re-vamped our off-season program. It worked and we knew it... and apparently so did other people. This strength coach now works for an NFL team. But at that point in the season, after all that work, we were exhausted and just wanted it to be over.
 
To answer your question:

- The aforementioned first-round opponent was a big rival of ours, and a team we had beaten earlier in the year at home. It was the one game we had circled on our calendar all season, and we were their only regular season loss. But anyone who followed football in that area knew they were the significantly more talented team, including us.
- We let off the gas a little after that big win, and given that the rematch was going to be at their place, and they now knew where the strengths of our very limited offense were, we knew what the end result was going to be... and the final score only corroborated it. FWIW, this team we played won the regional title, and their star RB played at a Big Ten school and had a nearly decade-long CFL career.
- Lastly, we had gotten a new strength coach the previous winter who completely re-vamped our off-season program. It worked and we knew it... and apparently so did other people. This strength coach now works for an NFL team. But at that point in the season, after all that work, we were exhausted and just wanted it to be over.
Ahhh ok makes sense at first I was like bro WHAT!?! 😂😂😂 Now I totally understand lol
 
That's a very intriguing number. All games combined really average that kind of a margin? That is... well... very counterintuitive to say the least. Something is wrong if the average game score of a loss is (almost) 30 points a game. That indicates to me, anyway, that the competition is seriously flawed. It also indicates that the margin for a running clock should be set well above 30 points.

I'd be curious to know where you got that number from. Is it just playoff games? First Round games? (I'd think that 30+ was low in the 16 teams per Region years.) I would think most teams of even size and football program emphasis, their game margins would be much closer than that. (IOW, to use a totally ridiculous example, most match-ups are NOT Massillon vs. Richmond Heights.)

Hope you will come back and elaborate on that.
Couldn't find my numbers, and didn't feel like going through my old records. So, used joeeitel.com.

For 2022, Joe had 4,422 total entries for all ten weeks of the regular season. Of those, 4,344 had scores. And after removing the 1-0 scores, there were 4,339 total games with scores. This is for both Ohio games and any non-Ohio game that was factored into Harbins. This includes Ohio club teams. As well as any Ohio 8-man games.

However, I think we can all agree that 4,339 total games is a good way to find an average margin.

Of those 4,339 games, the largest margin was 80 points. There were no ties. There were 157 one-point games.

For mean, (i.e., the halfway point), game #2169 in the list had a margin of 25 points.

All 4,339 games had a total score of 161,996 to 52,985. A total margin of 109,011 points. For an average score of 37.33 to 12.21. An average margin of 25.1235 per game. So, I did hyperbolise a little saying "almost 30" when the total was a hair above 25.


For the first round of the playoffs in 2022, there were 224 total games. Six games were 1-point margins, and the largest was a 70-point margin.

The mean was 30.

For the 224 games, the total score 9,416 to 3,102. A total margin of 6,314. For an average score of 42.04 to 13.85. For an average margin of victory of 28.1875. A few points higher than the regular season average.

Overall, there's some discrepancy as I am not filtering out 8-man games nor out-of-state games from Joe's list for the regular season. Stilll, the national average hangs somewhere in the mid-to-high 20s.
 
Couldn't find my numbers and didn't feel like going through my old records. So, used joeeitel.com.

For 2022, Joe had 4,422 total entries for all ten weeks of the regular season. Of those, 4,344 had scores. And after removing the 1-0 scores, there were 4,339 total games with scores. This is for both Ohio games and any non-Ohio game that was factored into Harbins. This includes Ohio club teams. As well as any Ohio 8-man games.

However, I think we can all agree that 4,339 total games is a good way to find an average margin.

Of those 4,339 games, the largest margin was 80 points. There were no ties. There were 157 one-point games.

For mean, (i.e., the halfway point), game #2169 in the list had a margin of 25 points.

All 4,339 games had a total score of 161,996 to 52,985. A total margin of 109,011 points. For an average score of 37.33 to 12.21. An average margin of 25.1235 per game. So, I did hyperbolize a little saying "almost 30" when the total was a hair above 25.


For the first round of the playoffs in 2022, there were 224 total games. Six games were 1-point margins, and the largest was a 70-point margin.

The mean was 30.

For the 224 games, the total score 9,416 to 3,102. A total margin of 6,314. For an average score of 42.04 to 13.85. For an average margin of victory of 28.1875. A few points higher than the regular season average.

Overall, there's some discrepancy as I am not filtering out 8-man games nor out-of-state games from Joe's list for the regular season. Still, the national average hangs somewhere in the mid-to-high 20s.
I never would have guessed those kinds of numbers were in play. You did an amazing job compiling all that information. I know just from looking at Joe Eitel's site that Ohio HS football (seems to me anyway) tends to be formful. By and large, the teams that should win, do. I think if teams are winning by 3+ TDs on average, it doesn't suggest a whole lot of upsets are happening. This was one reason I posted my recent thread about the worst record that a 9-1 team has lost to. Still... 3 touchdowns & a field goal + just staggers me. I would have expected it to be a lot closer, even though I recognize that there are many more wide margin games in Ohio HS ball than in say, the NCAA (conference games, not the early season cupcake eating contest) or certainly the NFL (Miami's recent 70-point day notwithstanding lol)

This is very counter intuitive to me. Most programs don't emphasize football like the big parochials in Cleveland and the Cincy area GCL, or Massillon, Steubenville, Canton McKinley, or (Fill in the blank with many other teams from around the State etc. etc.) I'm NEO centric lol. I would think most teams would play a local or very much a "neighborhood" schedule (Chesapeake doesn't schedule Conneaut etc.) and that they'd be comparable in enrollment and football emphasis. I am obviously missing something somewhere, or maybe it's just that more teams have a big-time approach than I would have previously thought. Or maybe it's that to survive you have to do that these days. I need to give your info a lot more thought to try and get my head around it. Make better sense of it.

IDK when you did all THAT research, as you said you couldn't find your records, but that is amazing work. My hat is off to you. Or would be, if I wore hats lol. I still have enough hair to make that unnecessary so far lol. RE: your comment about sample size, yes, I would surely agree that 4000+ games is more than adequate! (y)
 
Since 1999, when the OHSAA went to 8 teams per region in the playoffs making it, 22 out of 154 (roughly 15%) state champions were 5-8 seeds in their region. No 9 seed or worse has never done so since the move to 16. The list:

View attachment 47719
That 2019 Anna team was one of the best small school teams I have seen in years. What a shame if they had missed the playoffs.
 
I never would have guessed those kinds of numbers were in play. You did an amazing job compiling all that information. I know just from looking at Joe Eitel's site that Ohio HS football (seems to me anyway) tends to be formful. By and large, the teams that should win, do. I think if teams are winning by 3+ TDs on average, it doesn't suggest a whole lot of upsets are happening. This was one reason I posted my recent thread about the worst record that a 9-1 team has lost to. Still... 3 touchdowns & a field goal + just staggers me. I would have expected it to be a lot closer, even though I recognize that there are many more wide margin games in Ohio HS ball than in say, the NCAA (conference games, not the early season cupcake eating contest) or certainly the NFL (Miami's recent 70-point day notwithstanding lol)

This is very counter intuitive to me. Most programs don't emphasize football like the big parochials in Cleveland and the Cincy area GCL, or Massillon, Steubenville, Canton McKinley, or (Fill in the blank with many other teams from around the State etc. etc.) I'm NEO centric lol. I would think most teams would play a local or very much a "neighborhood" schedule (Chesapeake doesn't schedule Conneaut etc.) and that they'd be comparable in enrollment and football emphasis. I am obviously missing something somewhere, or maybe it's just that more teams have a big-time approach than I would have previously thought. Or maybe it's that to survive you have to do that these days. I need to give your info a lot more thought to try and get my head around it. Make better sense of it.

IDK when you did all THAT research, as you said you couldn't find your records, but that is amazing work. My hat is off to you. Or would be, if I wore hats lol. I still have enough hair to make that unnecessary so far lol. RE: your comment about sample size, yes, I would surely agree that 4000+ games is more than adequate! (y)
Took me about 20 minutes total. Gotta know how to work a spreadsheet.
 
16 teams born out of the pandemic,maybe should be reduced now but I did like allowing teams to play at least 1 more regular season game after the playoffs start, or even allow teams eliminated in round 1 to play 1 more regular season game.
 
Yet no one cares that a zero win wrestler, basketball teams, soccer team , or any other OHSAA sport allows literally everyone into the post season.
 
Here’s and idea———Starting week 11, if you don’t like the current format, just stop watching until it makes you feel better. Every year you people complain about this and 90% of highschool fans think it’s fine. You're in the minority complaining
 
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Yet no one cares that a zero win wrestler, basketball teams, soccer team , or any other OHSAA sport allows literally everyone into the post season.
I've never cared for it, but it was in place when I was born and there was sure no Internet to discuss it with people from all over lol!
 
Took me about 20 minutes total. Gotta know how to work a spreadsheet.
I had them at work, very late in my career, and I used them, but only a basic way. I was obviously never very highly proficient, since your work really surprised me lol!
 
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Couldn't find my numbers, and didn't feel like going through my old records. So, used joeeitel.com.

For 2022, Joe had 4,422 total entries for all ten weeks of the regular season. Of those, 4,344 had scores. And after removing the 1-0 scores, there were 4,339 total games with scores. This is for both Ohio games and any non-Ohio game that was factored into Harbins. This includes Ohio club teams. As well as any Ohio 8-man games.

However, I think we can all agree that 4,339 total games is a good way to find an average margin.

Of those 4,339 games, the largest margin was 80 points. There were no ties. There were 157 one-point games.

For mean, (i.e., the halfway point), game #2169 in the list had a margin of 25 points.

All 4,339 games had a total score of 161,996 to 52,985. A total margin of 109,011 points. For an average score of 37.33 to 12.21. An average margin of 25.1235 per game. So, I did hyperbolise a little saying "almost 30" when the total was a hair above 25.


For the first round of the playoffs in 2022, there were 224 total games. Six games were 1-point margins, and the largest was a 70-point margin.

The mean was 30.

For the 224 games, the total score 9,416 to 3,102. A total margin of 6,314. For an average score of 42.04 to 13.85. For an average margin of victory of 28.1875. A few points higher than the regular season average.

Overall, there's some discrepancy as I am not filtering out 8-man games nor out-of-state games from Joe's list for the regular season. Stilll, the national average hangs somewhere in the mid-to-high 20s.
That’s really interesting. Also just a heads up that mean is average. The midpoint data point is the median, not the mean- so the regular season has a median of 30 and a mean of 25.12, and the playoffs have a median of 30 and a mean of 28.19. Thanks for sharing!
 
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