USA Men's Freestyle GOAT Poll

Who is the Men's Freestyle GOAT

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  • Poll closed .
B

bdhof

Well-known member
I just read 5 pages on another wrestling forum site about the USA Men's Freestyle GOAT. I thought it was best to settle the issue by letting Yappi decide. There's really only 3 logical candidates, Bruce Baumgartner, Jordan Burroughs and John Smith. Here's their credentials (bare bones World/OLY medals):

Bruce Baumgartner
5 Gold (2 OLY, 3 World)
4 Silver (1 OLY, 3 World)
4 Bronze (1 OLY, 3 World)
Total Medals 13 (4 OLY, 9 World)

Jordan Burroughs
7 Gold (1 OLY, 6 World)
3 Bronze (World)
Total Medals 10 (1 OLY, 9 World)

John Smith
6 Gold (2 OLY, 4 World)
Total Medals 6 (2 OLY, 4 World)
 
 
Obviously the choice is Bruce Baumgartner with the most medals, Jordan Burroughs with the most Golds, or John Smith with 6 Golds in 6 years. I don't think there's a bad choice to be made. And it should be noted that Burroughs may not be finished collecting medals, but I couldn't wait for him to retire. 🤣
 
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bdhof said:
Obviously the choice is Bruce Baumgartner with the most medals, Jordan Burroughs with the most Golds, or John Smith with 6 for 6. I don't think there's a bad choice to be made. And it should be noted that Burroughs may not be finished collecting medals, but I couldn't wait for him to retire. 🤣
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Longevity when longevity wasn't as easy as it has become.

Like someone mentioned in the other thread, They are all the GOATS of their era... JB does have an opportunity to collect the most medals though.
 
MPhillips said:
Longevity when longevity wasn't as easy as it has become.

Like someone mentioned in the other thread, They are all the GOATS of their era... JB does have an opportunity to collect the most medals though.
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3 more medals are possible but tough. At 34 he'd likely have to medal next year, then beat Dake (or Taylor) and medal at 74kg at the 2024 OLY, and then medal again at the ripe old age of 37. I think Baumgartner's last medal was at 36, BTW. Perhaps they'll have a "non-OLY weight" World in 2024. Then maybe he can stay at 79kg in 2024. I think most years they do have a non-OLY weight Worlds (Stieber's World title is an example). I don't think they did this year. Possibly b/c they were doing Worlds and OLY in the same year.
 
I've always maintained that the "greatest" in anything is not how long they were great, but how dominant they were in their greatest year (years).
By that measurement, there are some people not on here who are also worth considering. Like Dan Gable in '71-'72, Wade Schalles in '76, Dave Schultz in '87, or Kenny Monday in '88. They all were world and Tibilisi champions and very dominant in those years.
That said, in terms of overall freestyle skills, as the rules have become, John Smith in '88 and Dan Gable in '72 were the most "unbeatable."
As far as entertaining to watch, the GOATS were all guys who "stuck" people. There you have Gable, Schalles, Schultz, Gene Mills and Ricky Sanders.
Under the standards you guys are using (most world & Olympic medals), for me Jordan Burroughs takes it. Been at the top of the heap for so long and has consistently bettered the current greatest wrestlers in the US arsenal, Dake & Taylor. Unparalleled consistency.
Nobody would argue that the '85 Chicago Bears were greater than the '70's Steelers, or the 2000's New England Patriots, or the 60's Packers, but for one season, '85, nobody in the history of the NFL was more dominating...My 2 cents.
 
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'I've always maintained that the "greatest" in anything is not how long they were great, but how dominant they were in their greatest year (years).'

Absolutely agree. And a DNP at the most coveted competition, and getting beat out 1 cycle are big tangibles. J Smith and Baumgartner then JB.
 
I think Burroughs has two things working in his favor:

1. His record against Dake and Taylor in their prime. Both were all-time great NCAA wrestlers and were unable to beat Burroughs in a series until Dake did so in 2021. JB caused both to change weights simply because they could not beat him, at which point they both won world titles.

2. The fall of the Soviet Union and the rise in Russian transfers. There are many good wrestlers in the 1980s and 1990s that were not competing because they had to spot on the team. Now, they either compete for former Soviet countries or compete for another country, neither of which were a possibility for opponents of Smith and Baumgartner.

I actually think Bruce may have the case, but there is a clear asterisk on the 1984 Olympic title. It's unavoidable and should be taken into consideration
 
Gotta go with JB for the same reason we recognize Tom Brady as FB GOAT.... the most golds/super bowl titles.

And then yankeefan33 adds the cherry on top with the following tidbit..... "His record against Dake and Taylor in their prime. Both were all-time great NCAA wrestlers and were unable to beat Burroughs in a series until Dake did so in 2021. JB caused both to change weights simply because they could not beat him, at which point they both won world titles."

Finally I'm a bit disappointed I didn't see my name listed. One would think a decent high school wrestling career and pitching a no-hitter at age 12 should at least get me in the conversation, but we all know when bdhof is involved...... the system is rigged.
 
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For me it's John Smith. I had a long explanation typed out explaining why. Then I had to delete it because I could just as easily justify Baumgartner and Burroughs. I'm just going with the fact he only won gold, and I loved his wrestling style. He never appeared to have a physical advantage over any of his opponents, but he rarely made a mistake. My final decision was based on Olympic gold. He had 2 against full competition. Baumgartner had 2, but one was in the 1984 Olympics that was missing the Soviets. He got another in 92 and had silver in '88. Had he got the gold in '88, he would be my top pick. Burroughs would be my top pick if not for his 2016 Olympic games. Complete surprise and disappointment. That's it, I can't explain it beyond that - just how I looked at it.
 
I'll end with this thought...Good as Burroughs has been and for as long as he has, I can't remember any single year where he was ever as dominating as Smith was in '88-90, or Gable was in '71-'72. Tom Brady is clearly the winningest QB of all time, but was he ever better in one year than Aaron Rogers was in 2011, or 2020, when Rogers had QB ratings in the 120's and 45+TD's and 4500 Yds. passing? Brady's highest rating was 2007 with a 117. We're splitting hairs, but that's what you do at this level of excellence. Just food for thought...
 
Two OLY....6 in a row, for me a slam dunk when you add in JB 2016. Medal "counts" count but anyone going on that alone would have to add in the number of years to attain them would have to be equal to compare. JB had a few years on Dake and Taylor in FS full time, that matters for those using JB "beat them"( someone will say thats an "excuse" lol really? it isnt a valid tangible? ) ..well he isn't beating them now is he? And Taylor is 5-1 against 1 of the best. If you want to call him the "GOAT" based on medal count...then Baumgartner would have to be the "GOAT".
 
Currently I would go with Bruce, but very very soon it will be Jordan if they aren't tied now. One of my favorites to watch was Greg Gibson, I do wonder where he would be if he stuck with one style. Gold in World Cup of Greco Has a silver in the Olympics for Greco, has two world silvers in freestyle, and has a world gold in sombo
 
This is a list from Wiki that ranks guys that have won at least 2 World/OLY titles. The ones in bold are still active. This isn't necessarily how they should be ranked on a GOAT scale, but I just thought it was good to get a glimpse of the best of the best among Team USA wrestlers. What's stands out to me is that we are going thru perhaps the prime glory days for Team USA wrestling. 4 of the top 6 on this chart and 5 of the top 11 are current team members. And IMO one shot wonders or even 2 shot wonders (w/ all due respect to Dan Gable) are not in the discussion for GOAT. To me GOAT implies something more than winning a couple of World/OLY titles and calling it quits. It means being the best for an era, however that is defined.

Rank Wrestler Weights From To Gold Silver Bronze Total
1 Jordan Burroughs 74 kg / 79 kg 2011 2022 7 - 3 10
2 John Smith 62 kg 1987 1992 6 - - 6
3 Bruce Baumgartner 130 kg 1983 1996 5 4 4 13
4 Kyle Snyder 97 kg 2015 2022 4 3 1 8
5 Kyle Dake 74 kg / 79 kg 2018 2022 4 - 1 5
6 David Taylor 86 kg 2018 2022 3 1 - 4
7 Leroy Kemp 74 kg 1978 1982 3 - 1 4
8 Kevin Jackson 82 kg 1992 1995 3 - - 3
Mark Schultz 82 kg 1984 1987 3 - - 3
10 Dave Schultz 74 kg / 82 kg 1982 1993 2 3 2 7
11 J'den Cox 86 kg / 92 kg 2016 2022 2 1 3 6
12 Kenny Monday 74 kg 1988 1992 2 2 - 4
13 Wayne Wells 74 kg 1969 1972 2 1 - 3
14 Terry Brands 57 kg / 58 kg 1993 2000 2 - 1 3
15 Kurt Angle 100 kg 1995 1996 2 - - 2
Tom Brands 62 kg 1993 1996 2 - - 2
Dan Gable 68 kg 1971 1972 2 - - 2
George Mehnert 52 kg / 54 kg 1904 1908 2 - - 2
 
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bdhof said:
... being the best for an era, however that is defined.
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USA has had many peaks and valleys in MFS. IMO eras can be defined by a wrestler or by a team. The Dan Gable era actually stretched from his NCAA career thru his short but dominant MFS career. Perhaps w/o knee injuries we would have seen more of him. He was surrounded by Rick Sanders (Silver), the Gold medalists Peterson brothers, Gold medalist Wayne Wells, and the giant Chris Taylor (Silver). What a fun team that was. Dan Gable was the face of wrestling then and put wrestling in the American spotlight.

Then we have the Bruce Baumgartner era. Altho, IMO (others may disagree) he actually wasn't the face of those teams as much as the Schultz brothers were earlier on and John Smith was towards the end of his career. Other wrestling greats during the Baumagartner era were the Banach brothers, Bobby Weaver, Randy Lewis, Bill Scherr, Kenny Monday, Zeke Jones, Kevin Jackson, Melvin Douglas, Kurt Angle, the Brands bothers, and Kendall Cross and John Smith - all Gold medalists. Did I mention that Baumgartner wrestled a really long time?

The John Smith era is included in the Baumgartner era, but as mentioned above, he was perhaps more of the face of that era than Baumgartner. Other wrestling greats during the Smith era - Baumgartner, Mark Schultz, Kenny Monday, Zeke Jones and Kevin Jackson (all Gold medalists). The one thing that Baumgartner had that Smith did not, was membership on World/OLY teams (1984, 1993, 1995, and 1996). Did I mention that Baumgartner wrestled a really long time?

I actually think Baumgartner doesn't get enough credit for being the team leader for those 13 years of medals he gave to Team USA. I mentioned "prime glory days" as the current team just won a World title. They really have to win some more to eclipse the 3 team titles in 4 years at the end of Baumgartner's era.
 
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bdhof said:
... being the best for an era, however that is defined.
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Continued...

And now the Jordan Burroughs era.

From Flo:
"Burroughs has stacked up his seven titles in 12 years. In the 12 years prior to his Senior-level debut, the United States won a total of five men’s freestyle World and Olympic titles — Stephen Neal (1999), Brandon Slay (2000), Cael Sanderson (2004), Bill Zadick (2006) and Henry Cejudo (2008)."

Team USA placed 9th in the 2008 OLY, 7th in the 2009 Worlds, and 22nd w/ no medals in 2010. He brought USA wrestling back. I'm not saying he is responsible for the success that the team has had or the success that Dake, Taylor, Snyder & Cox have had. But his era, while logically approaching the end, has been and still is a great one for Team USA w/ World titles in 2017 & 2022. And speaking of Dake and Taylor, if you think you are a World class wrestler and get beat domestically, you get better or you quit. Both got better.

To top things off, there isn't a classier athlete in the World than Burroughs - graceful in defeat and humble in victory.

I chose JB as my GOAT.
 
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JB's made some not so "humble" statements on several occasions, but that's not my reason refusing to claim he's the GOAT, Burroughs also has been graceful in defeat and all in all a good rep for USA. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to really lay claim to be the "GOAT". Competition between weight classes differs, who shows up each year differs, injuries ( DT as example out in 2019) , how long you compete matters .....As Ive said I see it as John Smith 6 straight world /OLY titles ( He just didn't "all I see is gold" he proved it. ) ....I'm also good with Baumgartner...after all most overall medals and more OLY gold's than Burroughs. One thing I'll add and I'm sure a few will blast me as usual lol.....Burroughs limited offense has hurt him......really it's the double and about it, yes he's "explosive" with it but didnt seem to "unstoppable" in 2016....nor recently against DT and KD ...a few others too. He's no par terre wizard either......What he's accomplished is GREAT, goes without saying but to ignore 2016 and not making team USA seems a bit too complimentary to call him the GOAT.
 
Question from a guy (me) who is pretty novice to the world level.

Is wrestling on the world level harder now than when we had Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)? I guess prior to 1991. It used to be you had one Russian to beat. Now its like 18 or so. So many former USSR countries.
 
MitSulHer said:
Question from a guy (me) who is pretty novice to the world level.

Is wrestling on the world level harder now than when we had Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)? I guess prior to 1991. It used to be you had one Russian to beat. Now its like 18 or so. So many former USSR countries.
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Without a doubt! Now probably in some years and/or some weights the RUS & friends are not as deep or good. I remember a few years ago I tracked the RUS & friends medal count and it was crazy high.
 
Old142 said:
JB's made some not so "humble" statements on several occasions, but that's not my reason refusing to claim he's the GOAT, Burroughs also has been graceful in defeat and all in all a good rep for USA. I'm pretty sure it's impossible to really lay claim to be the "GOAT". Competition between weight classes differs, who shows up each year differs, injuries ( DT as example out in 2019) , how long you compete matters .....As Ive said I see it as John Smith 6 straight world /OLY titles ( He just didn't "all I see is gold" he proved it. ) ....I'm also good with Baumgartner...after all most overall medals and more OLY gold's than Burroughs. One thing I'll add and I'm sure a few will blast me as usual lol.....Burroughs limited offense has hurt him......really it's the double and about it, yes he's "explosive" with it but didnt seem to "unstoppable" in 2016....nor recently against DT and KD ...a few others too. He's no par terre wizard either......What he's accomplished is GREAT, goes without saying but to ignore 2016 and not making team USA seems a bit too complimentary to call him the GOAT.
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Certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But the funny thing about the double is everyone knows it’s coming, they all knows that’s his only move and they still can’t stop it. 🤣

And when someone gets more Gold than JB I’ll change my opinion on who the GOAT is.
 
MitSulHer said:
Question from a guy (me) who is pretty novice to the world level.

Is wrestling on the world level harder now than when we had Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (USSR)? I guess prior to 1991. It used to be you had one Russian to beat. Now its like 18 or so. So many former USSR countries.
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Many people would say that it is harder now because of the several former USSR countries being represented on the world stage. The addition of Russian transfers to other countries, not just former USSR countries, makes the field much deeper as well.

For the "asterisk" for 1984 I have changed my view on that. Bruce won that year. Would the Russian have beat him? Who knows. If you wanted to put an asterisk on that year then you would have to do the same with this years world championships. They beat who was in front of them. They had no control of. No asterisk, they're the world/olympic champ that year.
 
pinem07 said:
For the "asterisk" for 1984 I have changed my view on that. Bruce won that year. Would the Russian have beat him? Who knows. If you wanted to put an asterisk on that year then you would have to do the same with this years world championships. They beat who was in front of them. They had no control of. No asterisk, they're the world/olympic champ that year.
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I don't think the asterisk comment is directed to me. But I'll say i dont think an asterisk is needed/valid for any year. Like you said.........you can only wrestle who is in front of you. I was just as happy in 1984, and this year, as any other year.
 
bdhof said:
Certainly everyone is entitled to their own opinions. But the funny thing about the double is everyone knows it’s coming, they all knows that’s his only move and they still can’t stop it. 🤣

And when someone gets more Gold than JB I’ll change my opinion on who the GOAT is.
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One other thing to consider why John Smith has 6 gold and JB has 7 in the GOAT argument...I mean discussion. Yes it's longevity as a participant in the sport that is the primary reason, but that was made possible by being able to earn a pretty good living from wrestling - especially so during the era in which Burroughs, Snyder, Taylor, Dake, et al have wrestled. They live a pretty good life and don't need to worry about money to raise a family, have a house and car, and have access to training at great facilities or to travel for working out with others. No pay for wrestling was allowed prior to 1988 - and what was allowed, was not much for wrestlers for more than a decade after that. Smith, Gable, Kemp and others wrestled prior to that coming about where a wrestler can now treat their job as a wrestler as a highly paid full time job - as long as they were successful.

Not sure how much money was available to Smith and Baumgartner after 1988, but I'm betting it wasn't much. I do know how much they each earned for their 2 gold medals - $0. Just another point to consider in the argument over GOAT and the number of golds/total medals won. Smith retired after just turning age 27 - considered the peak age of strength for men. Also, Burroughs didn't win his 7th gold until a week ago - at the age of 34. He won his 6th gold last year at the age of 33. By 27 he had 4 gold and 1 bronze in combined World Championships and Olympics. His streak of gold never went more than 3 straight years.

BTW - Flo Wrestling show their Top 10 rankings (as part of the Top 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time) as below. I know most everyone has probably seen this before., but I just found it while looking for some other information.

10 Lee Kemp
9 Adeline Gray
8 Kyle Dake
7 Dan Gable
6 Cael Sanderson
5 Kyle Snyder
4 Helen Maroulis
3 Bruce Baumgartner
2 Jordan Burroughs
1 John Smith

Snyder could still get in the discussion if he stays healthy. He's only 26 (turns 27 in 2 months). The big caveat for him is Sadulaev - one of the best wrestlers in history from any country. They are not onny in the same weight class, but are also the same age. That will make it tough for Snyder to get more gold. His 2 silvers were the result of losing to Sadulaev. He has only lost to one other wrestler in World Championships. He is also the youngest to ever to win a World championship in US history at the age of 19. Unless Sadulaev is found to have used PEDs and has to forfeit his recent wins over Snyder, it's not looking good for him to bypass the top three listed.
 
OCEagle said:
One other thing to consider why John Smith has 6 gold and JB has 7 in the GOAT argument...I mean discussion. Yes it's longevity as a participant in the sport that is the primary reason, but that was made possible by being able to earn a pretty good living from wrestling - especially so during the era in which Burroughs, Snyder, Taylor, Dake, et al have wrestled. They live a pretty good life and don't need to worry about money to raise a family, have a house and car, and have access to training at great facilities or to travel for working out with others. No pay for wrestling was allowed prior to 1988 - and what was allowed, was not much for wrestlers for more than a decade after that. Smith, Gable, Kemp and others wrestled prior to that coming about where a wrestler can now treat their job as a wrestler as a highly paid full time job - as long as they were successful.

Not sure how much money was available to Smith and Baumgartner after 1988, but I'm betting it wasn't much. I do know how much they each earned for their 2 gold medals - $0. Just another point to consider in the argument over GOAT and the number of golds/total medals won. Smith retired after just turning age 27 - considered the peak age of strength for men. Also, Burroughs didn't win his 7th gold until a week ago - at the age of 34. He won his 6th gold last year at the age of 33. By 27 he had 4 gold and 1 bronze in combined World Championships and Olympics. His streak of gold never went more than 3 straight years.

BTW - Flo Wrestling show their Top 10 rankings (as part of the Top 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time) as below. I know most everyone has probably seen this before., but I just found it while looking for some other information.

10 Lee Kemp
9 Adeline Gray
8 Kyle Dake
7 Dan Gable
6 Cael Sanderson
5 Kyle Snyder
4 Helen Maroulis
3 Bruce Baumgartner
2 Jordan Burroughs
1 John Smith

Snyder could still get in the discussion if he stays healthy. He's only 26 (turns 27 in 2 months). The big caveat for him is Sadulaev - one of the best wrestlers in history from any country. They are not onny in the same weight class, but are also the same age. That will make it tough for Snyder to get more gold. His 2 silvers were the result of losing to Sadulaev. He has only lost to one other wrestler in World Championships. He is also the youngest to ever to win a World championship in US history at the age of 19. Unless Sadulaev is found to have used PEDs and has to forfeit his recent wins over Snyder, it's not looking good for him to bypass the top three listed.
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The money thing is spot on. I didn't want to get into that, but I remember hearing Gable say that he would have loved to keep wrestling full time, but he had to make a living.
Lee Kemp, Chris Campbell and just about everyone from that pre-88 era was faced with the same choices. Only very few, like Baumgartner & Schultz found ways to get by and stay in full-time training and we all know how that turned out for Schultz.
With all due respect for the women on that list, that should be a separate topic for many reasons, but mostly because it's only been around for a decade or so. The history of comparison is simply not long enough.
 
OCEagle said:
One other thing to consider why John Smith has 6 gold and JB has 7 in the GOAT argument...I mean discussion. Yes it's longevity as a participant in the sport that is the primary reason, but that was made possible by being able to earn a pretty good living from wrestling - especially so during the era in which Burroughs, Snyder, Taylor, Dake, et al have wrestled.
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Great observation on the money side of things. You may have been great, but it didn't pay the bills. For some reason the Dupont tragedy came to my mind.
 
OCEagle said:
One other thing to consider why John Smith has 6 gold and JB has 7 in the GOAT argument...I mean discussion. Yes it's longevity as a participant in the sport that is the primary reason, but that was made possible by being able to earn a pretty good living from wrestling - especially so during the era in which Burroughs, Snyder, Taylor, Dake, et al have wrestled. They live a pretty good life and don't need to worry about money to raise a family, have a house and car, and have access to training at great facilities or to travel for working out with others. No pay for wrestling was allowed prior to 1988 - and what was allowed, was not much for wrestlers for more than a decade after that. Smith, Gable, Kemp and others wrestled prior to that coming about where a wrestler can now treat their job as a wrestler as a highly paid full time job - as long as they were successful.

Not sure how much money was available to Smith and Baumgartner after 1988, but I'm betting it wasn't much. I do know how much they each earned for their 2 gold medals - $0. Just another point to consider in the argument over GOAT and the number of golds/total medals won. Smith retired after just turning age 27 - considered the peak age of strength for men. Also, Burroughs didn't win his 7th gold until a week ago - at the age of 34. He won his 6th gold last year at the age of 33. By 27 he had 4 gold and 1 bronze in combined World Championships and Olympics. His streak of gold never went more than 3 straight years.

BTW - Flo Wrestling show their Top 10 rankings (as part of the Top 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time) as below. I know most everyone has probably seen this before., but I just found it while looking for some other information.

10 Lee Kemp
9 Adeline Gray
8 Kyle Dake
7 Dan Gable
6 Cael Sanderson
5 Kyle Snyder
4 Helen Maroulis
3 Bruce Baumgartner
2 Jordan Burroughs
1 John Smith

Snyder could still get in the discussion if he stays healthy. He's only 26 (turns 27 in 2 months). The big caveat for him is Sadulaev - one of the best wrestlers in history from any country. They are not onny in the same weight class, but are also the same age. That will make it tough for Snyder to get more gold. His 2 silvers were the result of losing to Sadulaev. He has only lost to one other wrestler in World Championships. He is also the youngest to ever to win a World championship in US history at the age of 19. Unless Sadulaev is found to have used PEDs and has to forfeit his recent wins over Snyder, it's not looking good for him to bypass the top three listed.
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Some VERY valid criteria for my vote on behalf of John Smith. Good stuff.
 
OCEagle said:
BTW - Flo Wrestling show their Top 10 rankings (as part of the Top 100 greatest American wrestlers of all time) as below. I know most everyone has probably seen this before., but I just found it while looking for some other information.

10 Lee Kemp
9 Adeline Gray
8 Kyle Dake
7 Dan Gable
6 Cael Sanderson
5 Kyle Snyder
4 Helen Maroulis
3 Bruce Baumgartner
2 Jordan Burroughs
1 John Smith
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This was written in January before JB notched #7 and passed Smith up, but good info regardless.
 
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