competitive balance

How about an out of box thought. Play your season and you get placed into a tournament based on the number of wins in the regular season. If you Richmond Hts goes 21-2 they get placed with the big boys. If Springboro goes 5-18 they get placed in the lower tourney. Use a formula for % wins based on current division level.

It would need a SOS component to it. Taft won D3 with 7 losses because their schedule was much tougher than a typical D3.

I do like that idea but assume there will be schools who would rather play in a "lower" division and not want to get bumped up even with a great record.

Club volleyball has qualifiers/bids that you have to earn and determines the level you play at. Not sure how you modify it for basketball where there is limited crossover in much of the state, but it does a much better job to balance the competition when it comes to the National Tournament.
 
There is no combination of transfer rules or competitive balance formula that will not negatively impact someone. Push D4 to D3, push D3 to D2, push D2 to D1. The result is someone will get beat by a team that they would not have otherwise played.

Some moves are for legit reasons others are for athletics - who is to judge what is legit and what is not? Do you push the review of every last change of address to OHSAA and away from the schools? Better increase those dues to cover increased staff, enforcement and lie detector tests.

Don't like the OHSAA format - schools could create their own invite only State Championship tourney. Invite whatever 16 teams you want, based on whatever criteria you want and award a medal. Just replace 4 games at the end of your regular season schedule. Call it "The Sterile - I Live in a Bubble State Championship".

Much of this is tongue and cheek, but I think this is all overblown. A state championship is very cool, but all the people I know who won a state championship don't seem to be living any different than those who did not win.

And what is cooler than a win like Marion Local had over Cornerstone. Means a lot more than beating a lesser team.

Imagine a rule like Michigan's where they can declare you ineligible even if you move into the district if they think you moved for athletic reasons.

Thomas Kithier moved to Clarkston to play with his future college teammate at Michigan State. His former school filed a complaint. The MHSAA declared him ineligible and made him sit out his entire senior year.

I tend to agree with you. As long as the kids are enrolled in school and not overage, let them play. Schools that don't like it can always quit their league and join the BVC.
 
It would need a SOS component to it. Taft won D3 with 7 losses because their schedule was much tougher than a typical D3.

I do like that idea but assume there will be schools who would rather play in a "lower" division and not want to get bumped up even with a great record.

Club volleyball has qualifiers/bids that you have to earn and determines the level you play at. Not sure how you modify it for basketball where there is limited crossover in much of the state, but it does a much better job to balance the competition when it comes to the National Tournament.
Agreed there would have to some fine tuning…maybe a D3 Taft should have been playing in the 2nd tourney(D2) and a 11-13 team D2 team goes down a level.

I think the smaller school good teams would love to take on some of the big boys and all the tournaments become much more competitive.
 
My 2 cents on this is that the disease has to be properly identified before a cure can be directed toward it.

The disease is not transfers, move-ins, open-enrollers, etc. The disease is the QUALITY of the free agents.

A school gets 8 kids who open enroll who want to play basketball. They are all 5'6", slow, can't jump, and have no skills.

Another school gets 1 kid transfer in, a 6-8 kid with advanced skills who plays AAU with another very talented player already at that school, and has other very good players already around him.

Which situation poses a potential competitive balance problem?

This illustrates why we are still talking about this even though the OHSAA put a competitive balance system in place several years ago. Until there is a way to adjust for the QUALITY of an addition and the QUALITY of the team he or she is being added to, we are ignoring the disease and treating symptoms.

It is possible that the best thing to do is nothing and just let it be another lesson for kids that life isn't fair and they need to get used to it. :)
 
Competitive balance only effects D2-4---D1 can have alot of transfers or none, and they are still D1----5 divisions, as coaches have asked for since the 90's, would help more than any competitive balance can do---5 basketball divisions and 7 football seems better for Ohio high school competitive games.
 
Competitive balance only effects D2-4---D1 can have alot of transfers or none, and they are still D1----5 divisions, as coaches have asked for since the 90's, would help more than any competitive balance can do---5 basketball divisions and 7 football seems better for Ohio high school competitive games.
And once they get five divisions there will be coaches asking for a sixth.
 
The original reason for divisions was that the smaller schools could not compete with the larger schools. This gave the smaller schools a fighting chance.

For that reason, I see no reason to add a 5th division until the competitive balance is corrected. I would actually think about going the other way, reduce the number of divisions down to 1 and let everyone play for the same championship. Right now, the gap between the division champions is very small. If we had a 4 team tournament with the four champions, it would probably be very close. THAT should never be the case.

Division 4 schools are supposed to be so disadvantaged compared to the larger schools that an additional division was required to give them a chance at success. Today, the top of each division shows very little difference. No way should an average school with 100 boys be able to compete with an average school that has 1000. The size and athleticism divide should be enormous.
 
This illustrates why we are still talking about this even though the OHSAA put a competitive balance system in place several years ago. Until there is a way to adjust for the QUALITY of an addition and the QUALITY of the team he or she is being added to, we are ignoring the disease and treating symptoms.
Agreed. I think most of us can see that things are out of whack. The problem is that no solution exists that can cure the disease. Every rule we implement can have an adverse effect on a school that has done everything right.
 
Agreed. I think most of us can see that things are out of whack. The problem is that no solution exists that can cure the disease. Every rule we implement can have an adverse effect on a school that has done everything right.
Being from Hiland, I have seen this from both sides. Despite being an excellent small school program with outstanding coaches for about 40 years, and despite some popular opinion, Hiland has usually been the little local engine that could. It's not an easy place to transfer to because it is a very different culture, removed from major employment centers, costly and limited housing, among other things. So most of these 40 years, Hiland played against the "stacked" teams and won some, lost others. If they did get transfer sprinkle in, they were from contiguous districts - some good players and some projects, but nothing that would shift competitive balance.

In 2010, a 6-7 junior moved in. Parents were divorced and mom took up residence in Berlin and enrolled him. The family had deep ties with the former school. Dad coached there at one point. The kid was unhappy with his basketball situation and the family decided to take the slings and arrows for him to try to get him happy.

This was a very talented kid. Not the greatest athlete, but good enough, and he had all the other things you want in a basketball player.

He joined a team of all local kids that had size and talent that had never been seen in these parts: a 6-5 G who was 2 time state POY, a 6-8 G, a 6-7 post, and a PG who was almost perfect for that role. And a very deep bench of really fine players, some that couldn't get playing time.

They were probably the betting favorite to win state in 11 before the transfer. After it, they became prohibitive favorites - and they cashed that in for 2 titles. Even then, Bishop Rosecrans and Richmond Hts dang near knocked them out during that time.

That transfer made a big difference because of how talented and good of a kid he was AND because of what he was being added to. That showed me that competitive balance gets tilted not from the number of transfers, but from the quality, that only one can do it, and who the transfer is added to affects it.

All that said, people should know that all of that size and talent Hiland had equated to several division II college scholarships and a few D III college players. So, as amazing as it was, it was so only in the context of a rural small school. It was not a deal where major or mid-major future college players were on a D4 team.

One more observation:

It's only a handful of teams that cause the competive balance problem, mostly in the lower divisions. The typical situation is 2 or 3 elite AAU teammates who are D1/II college recruits decide to play together at a small enrollment school. I would estimate that in most years it is not more than 15 schools.

So, if there was a way to identify those schools who create the problem with an unnatural influx of talent, evaluate them for their talent level, and then slot them in a division where they are qualified to compete, that would be a system that would actually treat the disease.

Easier said than done, and like you noted, I'm sure there would be some kind of unintended side effects with such a system, but if we aren't going to be honest about the cause of the problem and address it, I'd prefer we do nothing about it.
 
Imagine a rule like Michigan's where they can declare you ineligible even if you move into the district if they think you moved for athletic reasons.

Thomas Kithier moved to Clarkston to play with his future college teammate at Michigan State. His former school filed a complaint. The MHSAA declared him ineligible and made him sit out his entire senior year.

I tend to agree with you. As long as the kids are enrolled in school and not overage, let them play. Schools that don't like it can always quit their league and join the BVC.
This would be great! this would kill all of the top players going to whatever school their AAU coach is at
 
How about an out of box thought. Play your season and you get placed into a tournament based on the number of wins in the regular season. If you Richmond Hts goes 21-2 they get placed with the big boys. If Springboro goes 5-18 they get placed in the lower tourney. Use a formula for % wins based on current division level.
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This would be great! this would kill all of the top players going to whatever school their AAU coach is at

So something as unimportant as basketball should lock a family into where they live? Why stop with basketball - we should ask a governing body for permission to do everything in our lives, where we live, where we work, who we marry - because they surely know what is best for us.

Without knowing the full details I think that kid got screwed.
 
Dont forget also that Richmond Heights won with their best player on the bench.

I guess that is my point. Give me another d4 school that would win a state title by 25+ if their best player gets hurt. They won that game because the transfers they have gotten over the years. Harris is a great player, but again he was a Glen Oak kid at one point. The 6'8 wide body post player was a great piece for them. He played well, but he was a Benedictine kid. You take the 2 Benedictine kids off the floor and they are completely different.

You take him off that team and Harris doesn't play Tri Village has a fighting chance, instead they didn't.
 
The original reason for divisions was that the smaller schools could not compete with the larger schools. This gave the smaller schools a fighting chance.

For that reason, I see no reason to add a 5th division until the competitive balance is corrected. I would actually think about going the other way, reduce the number of divisions down to 1 and let everyone play for the same championship. Right now, the gap between the division champions is very small. If we had a 4 team tournament with the four champions, it would probably be very close. THAT should never be the case.

Division 4 schools are supposed to be so disadvantaged compared to the larger schools that an additional division was required to give them a chance at success. Today, the top of each division shows very little difference. No way should an average school with 100 boys be able to compete with an average school that has 1000. The size and athleticism divide should be enormous.
I see what you are saying Yapp, but then why do we have 7 divisions in football????----this has been 30 years asking for 5 divisions, so it didn't start when competitive balance, open enrollment, and transfers was even a "thing" yet. The point to making it 160 per division at tourney time is to have competitive games earlier in the tournament---if a blowout happens in the regionals or at state then so be it. People aren't going to watch games that are complete mismatches. Heck go ahead and do Harbin ratings for basketball and put teams into tournament divisions by their Harbin points accumulated from their regular season schedules if we are going to stay at 4 divisions. Something has to change other than size of the school right now.
 
I see what you are saying Yapp, but then why do we have 7 divisions in football????----this has been 30 years asking for 5 divisions, so it didn't start when competitive balance, open enrollment, and transfers was even a "thing" yet. The point to making it 160 per division at tourney time is to have competitive games earlier in the tournament---if a blowout happens in the regionals or at state then so be it. People aren't going to watch games that are complete mismatches. Heck go ahead and do Harbin ratings for basketball and put teams into tournament divisions by their Harbin points accumulated from their regular season schedules if we are going to stay at 4 divisions. Something has to change other than size of the school right now.
Let's look at it from the other side. Play devil's advocate for the moment. Why wouldn't OHSAA want to consider SOS or Harbin-type calculations? One thought is that it could really diminish the overall talent level of the teams in lower divisions. Yes, a successful Richmond Heights team would be moved up from D4. But wouldn't any smaller school that went 20-0, as well? I'm thinking OHSAA may not want to use a metric that would place all the really good teams in D1; the rest of the good teams in D2; the so-so teams in D3 and the struggling teams in D4. Though this certainly would make for more competitive games throughout the tournament, I can see why OHSAA would be hesitant. Part of the issue on this thread is that people tend to want to come up with rules that will effect the other team, but not apply to their team. To me, in any endeavor, it's almost never fair when you write rules for the worst case scenario. So, since any suggested change comes with a different set of inequities, it seems like OHSAA is content to stand still and rely on enrollment weighted by CB; which, if nothing else, is about as neutral a metric that you can come up with. It's not perfect, but they seem willing to live by the old adage: "The devil you know beats the devil you don't".
 
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Let's look at it from the other side. Play devil's advocate for the moment. Why wouldn't OHSAA want to consider SOS or Harbin-type calculations? One thought is that it could really diminish the overall talent level of the teams in lower divisions. Yes, a successful Richmond Heights team would be moved up from D4. But wouldn't any smaller school that went 20-0, as well? I'm thinking OHSAA may not want to use a metric that would place all the really good teams in D1; the rest of the good teams in D2; the so-so teams in D3 and the struggling teams in D4. Though this certainly would make for more competitive games throughout the tournament, I can see why OHSAA would be hesitant. Part of the issue on this thread is that people tend to want to come up with rules that will effect the other team, but not apply to their team. To me, in any endeavor, it's almost never fair when you write rules for the worst case scenario. So, since any suggested change comes with a different set of inequities, it seems like OHSAA is content to stand still and rely on enrollment weighted by CB; which, if nothing else, is about as neutral a metric that you can come up with. It's not perfect, but they seem willing to live by the old adage: "The devil you know beats the devil you don't".
I don't disagree Irish--to me then go to 5 divisions and see if that "helps" with the many mismatches year after year---as I said before CB as no effect in division 1 as those 200 teams will be D1 no matter how many/few transfers they take in---only D2,D3,D4 can be adjusted based on their CB numbers---the very small D1 schools for the most part have very little chance to make any kind of run---many of those small D1's are in D2 for the football playoffs and have very good success come playoff time here in SW Ohio such as Kings, Anderson, Turpin, Winton Woods to just name a few.
OHSAA really needs to do something to give HS basketball a shot in the arm come tourney-time.
 
After catching up on this entire thread, my suggestion would be to have a preseason for basketball where a RPI (like Martin RPI) would be utilized to bucket teams in say, 5 divisions. Teams at the top and bottom 10% of divisions could have a short period of time to request an exception to move up or down. This is done in many other sports like hockey and could cure competitive balance. Teams/schools would be very motivated to ensure that their game data is accurate and submitted.
 
After catching up on this entire thread, my suggestion would be to have a preseason for basketball where a RPI (like Martin RPI) would be utilized to bucket teams in say, 5 divisions. Teams at the top and bottom 10% of divisions could have a short period of time to request an exception to move up or down. This is done in many other sports like hockey and could cure competitive balance. Teams/schools would be very motivated to ensure that their game data is accurate and submitted.
Martins RPI is useless. Some of those numbers don't make any sense!

His last D4 top 25 was awful.
River #5
Richmond Heights #6 (they play the best schedule of any d3 or d4 team)
Mathews & Trimble both above Tri Village
Cedarville #15
Lucasville Valley #16

I am not sure how he calculates those, but they are not very accurate. If he is comparing schedules, that is a terrible way of doing it.
 
Martins RPI is useless. Some of those numbers don't make any sense!

His last D4 top 25 was awful.
River #5
Richmond Heights #6 (they play the best schedule of any d3 or d4 team)
Mathews & Trimble both above Tri Village
Cedarville #15
Lucasville Valley #16

I am not sure how he calculates those, but they are not very accurate. If he is comparing schedules, that is a terrible way of doing it.

I think the numbers work out pretty well within a single district and within a single division......but once I compared the local small school division to some of the higher divisions the numbers didn't work out that well. I think the issue is there are not enough crossover games between divisions and regions. So you see some head scratching results.

The logic and math is sound but lack of crossover games skews the results.
 
Martins RPI is useless. Some of those numbers don't make any sense!

His last D4 top 25 was awful.
River #5
Richmond Heights #6 (they play the best schedule of any d3 or d4 team)
Mathews & Trimble both above Tri Village
Cedarville #15
Lucasville Valley #16

I am not sure how he calculates those, but they are not very accurate. If he is comparing schedules, that is a terrible way of doing it.
I like his SOS component more than the RPI.....which seems to be heavily weighted toward wins and losses and not as much toward SOS.

In D4 strength of schedule Richmond Hts and Hiland were 1 & 2 Tri Village was 36 and Antwerp was 96

In D3 SOS he had Lutheran East was 1, Africentric 2, Taft 3 and Ottawa Glandorf 6 You can't have 4 teams much more prepared for a deep tourney run than those 4
 
I would be more interested in trying merit based divisions in a smaller sport like hockey were the lack of parity is even worse.

If it’s successful there then it could be considered for basketball
 
Seeing as how high school sports began somewhat as communities challenging neighboring communities, it could be kept as such by saying kids in public schools can play sports for only their home district school. :unsure:
 
Being from Hiland, I have seen this from both sides. Despite being an excellent small school program with outstanding coaches for about 40 years, and despite some popular opinion, Hiland has usually been the little local engine that could. It's not an easy place to transfer to because it is a very different culture, removed from major employment centers, costly and limited housing, among other things. So most of these 40 years, Hiland played against the "stacked" teams and won some, lost others. If they did get transfer sprinkle in, they were from contiguous districts - some good players and some projects, but nothing that would shift competitive balance.

In 2010, a 6-7 junior moved in. Parents were divorced and mom took up residence in Berlin and enrolled him. The family had deep ties with the former school. Dad coached there at one point. The kid was unhappy with his basketball situation and the family decided to take the slings and arrows for him to try to get him happy.

This was a very talented kid. Not the greatest athlete, but good enough, and he had all the other things you want in a basketball player.

He joined a team of all local kids that had size and talent that had never been seen in these parts: a 6-5 G who was 2 time state POY, a 6-8 G, a 6-7 post, and a PG who was almost perfect for that role. And a very deep bench of really fine players, some that couldn't get playing time.

They were probably the betting favorite to win state in 11 before the transfer. After it, they became prohibitive favorites - and they cashed that in for 2 titles. Even then, Bishop Rosecrans and Richmond Hts dang near knocked them out during that time.

That transfer made a big difference because of how talented and good of a kid he was AND because of what he was being added to. That showed me that competitive balance gets tilted not from the number of transfers, but from the quality, that only one can do it, and who the transfer is added to affects it.

All that said, people should know that all of that size and talent Hiland had equated to several division II college scholarships and a few D III college players. So, as amazing as it was, it was so only in the context of a rural small school. It was not a deal where major or mid-major future college players were on a D4 team.

One more observation:

It's only a handful of teams that cause the competive balance problem, mostly in the lower divisions. The typical situation is 2 or 3 elite AAU teammates who are D1/II college recruits decide to play together at a small enrollment school. I would estimate that in most years it is not more than 15 schools.

So, if there was a way to identify those schools who create the problem with an unnatural influx of talent, evaluate them for their talent level, and then slot them in a division where they are qualified to compete, that would be a system that would actually treat the disease.

Easier said than done, and like you noted, I'm sure there would be some kind of unintended side effects with such a system, but if we aren't going to be honest about the cause of the problem and address it, I'd prefer we do nothing about it.
In that Situation the Mother did the correct thing by moving to the school district
 
So you’d rather those teams be beaten by teams that recruit? Look at all 4 state champions this year. Pick Central has the All Ohio AAU connection, we know about ASVSM, Taft gets kids from all over Cincy, and the D4 winner was essentially an AAU team.
Taft
So you’d rather those teams be beaten by teams that recruit? Look at all 4 state champions this year. Pick Central has the All Ohio AAU connection, we know about ASVSM, Taft gets kids from all over Cincy, and the D4 winner was essentially an AAU team.
Taft gets guys from all over Cincy? Their CB # is 6. Who are you referring to?
 
The horse is out of the gate… long gone are the home town team tourneys where schools and communities did the best with what they had. Eventually.. everything in this world gets ruined by cheaters.. people who will do anything to win
 
In that Situation the Mother did the correct thing by moving to the school district
I realized something interesting about that particular situation. That transfer happened when the OHSAA was still trying to play God and divine the motivations of move-ins.

If the family was intact, it was much harder to get past the scrutiny that was put on move-ins and harder to transfer in general.

But a divorced or separated family was allowed to have 2 residences - which made it much easier.

It didn't take much imagination to see a situation where a family would legally separate simply to gain the advantage of being able to have 2 residences and facilitate the approval of the transfer and gain eligibility. I've always wondered if this ever happened.

Regardless, something is wrong when your rules are encouraging divorce or separation and discouraging, even punishing, intact families. Such are the conundrums created when you go about creating rules in an effort to control human beings. Lol.
 
Taft

Taft gets guys from all over Cincy? Their CB # is 6. Who are you referring to?
Well the Elmore kid transferred from Thurgood Marshall in Dayton. The Norton kid came from out of state, either Kentucky or Indiana… I can’t remember which. The Granville kid went to Hughes for middle school.

That’s three transfers out of the 8 guys they played this year. Just because a schools competitive balance number is low, doesn’t mean they don’t recruit.
 
Well the Elmore kid transferred from Thurgood Marshall in Dayton. The Norton kid came from out of state, either Kentucky or Indiana… I can’t remember which. The Granville kid went to Hughes for middle school.

That’s three transfers out of the 8 guys they played this year. Just because a schools competitive balance number is low, doesn’t mean they don’t recruit.
But, because a kid transfers to a different school doesn't mean he was recruited.
 
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