competitive balance

[Kurt Rambis]

As I think about how next year may look with competitive balance thrown in, all it does is make think, at the end of the day, how schools that bring in players, just flat out make it unfair for EVERYONE else in the state.

If teams dominate at the d2 or 3 or 4 level with transfers, that's unfair to the teams they play. However, even more so, if these schools get moved up a division or 2 with the formula, then it's unfair to the next divisions.

It just stinks. If the d2 champ moves up to D1, it's the large public schools who will be affected by this. Other d2 teams are like "Yes!"....ahhh, but Taft may move up to d2 for Rayvon's senior year.

It's all just a joke. Unfortunately with no solution. We can't count on every school to do it the right way, with their own kids.

But, I guess it comes down to those teams having all the pressure on them when playing a team that does it right. But, that's also a part of this state that I love: The private schools & The publics that accumulate AAU talent from around the region. The pressure is always on them to get the job done. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't!

 

[LetsGoBig]

I do agree with you that something needs to be done and also that there are no good solutions.

St. V's in Division 2 is a joke. They are not a division 2 team. They should have to play with Division I schools, if number wise that doesn't make sense I am sorry, but they have won their last 6 division 2 state games by 28, 25, 29, 22, 11, 9. Competitive advantage.

Lutheran East in division 3 brought back just 1 player who was on last years final four team. The other 4 starters all were at other schools. Now they didn't win it, but they aren't doing it the right way. Taft's best point guard is a kid that was at multiple different schools.

Richmond Heights has been pulling kids in from all over trying to win a division 3 crown, finally had enough to win it and they did it in convincing fashion. Tri Village was easily the second best team in the state and couldn't come within 20.

I think if you bring in more than 1 kid that should automatically bump you up a division. Don't care the size of the school, there has to be ways to regulate and control this. You want the state tournament attendance to go up start getting back to the roots. Community based athletics, not AAU teams.

 

[tcgobucks]

I do agree with you that something needs to be done and also that there are no good solutions.

St. V's in Division 2 is a joke. They are not a division 2 team. They should have to play with Division I schools, if number wise that doesn't make sense I am sorry, but they have won their last 6 division 2 state games by 28, 25, 29, 22, 11, 9. Competitive advantage.

Lutheran East in division 3 brought back just 1 player who was on last years final four team. The other 4 starters all were at other schools. Now they didn't win it, but they aren't doing it the right way. Taft's best point guard is a kid that was at multiple different schools.

Richmond Heights has been pulling kids in from all over trying to win a division 3 crown, finally had enough to win it and they did it in convincing fashion. Tri Village was easily the second best team in the state and couldn't come within 20.

I think if you bring in more than 1 kid that should automatically bump you up a division. Don't care the size of the school, there has to be ways to regulate and control this. You want the state tournament attendance to go up start getting back to the roots. Community based athletics, not AAU teams.

Agree with SVSM....though it was down year in D2 this season...but they were completely dominate

D3....Lutheran East is what it is...but OG almost got them last year. OG has no transfers or move in's and probably had the best team in the state in 2020 when Covid cancelled the season (maybe their best team ever).....made it to state last year and finished runner up this year. Even Taft bringing in guys (including from KY) almost wasn't enough. I think D3 is fine where it is.

D4 is different. Richmond Heights is a joke. They know they are good, which is why they play all the "big boys" during the regular season. Not sure how they can even be real excited about winning D4 considering they know they bought their title lol

 

[LetsGoBig]

Agree with SVSM....though it was down year in D2 this season...but they were completely dominate

D3....Lutheran East is what it is...but OG almost got them last year. OG has no transfers or move in's and probably had the best team in the state in 2020 when Covid cancelled the season (maybe their best team ever).....made it to state last year and finished runner up this year. Even Taft bringing in guys (including from KY) almost wasn't enough. I think D3 is fine where it is.

D4 is different. Richmond Heights is a joke. They know they are good, which is why they play all the "big boys" during the regular season. Not sure how they can even be real excited about winning D4 considering they know they bought their title lol

I agree, but Lutheran East and Taft have been d2 in the past. OG hasn't been d2 in a long time. You take OG out of the equation though there is no one else that stands a chance. Private schools are the only ones.

Richmond Heights, is nuts.....that is not d4 basketball. The worst part about it is their competitive balance number is a "0". How that is physically possible I am not sure!

 

[tcgobucks]

I agree, but Lutheran East and Taft have been d2 in the past. OG hasn't been d2 in a long time. You take OG out of the equation though there is no one else that stands a chance. Private schools are the only ones.

Richmond Heights, is nuts.....that is not d4 basketball. The worst part about it is their competitive balance number is a "0". How that is physically possible I am not sure!

OG was 2 boys away from being D2 this year.....not sure if the next "count" is next season or in 2024, but I assume they'll be close again

 

[sug00]

You can thank AAU and Open Enrolment. You want to change schools you need to move into the district with your parents not some host family or a coach

 

[Irish60]

I've always said that they should include strength of schedule as a metric in the equation. If you play a D1 schedule, like the Irish do, then you should play in the D1 tournament.

 

[OkolonaBlues]

I've always said that they should include strength of schedule as a metric in the equation. If you play a D1 schedule, like the Irish do, then you should play in the D1 tournament.

It has been reported in Kentucky, they will be discussing a one time free transfer in May. They got 1400-1500 request this year and it continues to rise. Considering the resources it takes to review and 80% are approved, it appears they have decided to throw their hands up.

 

[Hawksfan197]

I look at the Richmond heights boys enrollment there is no way they only have 85 boys in the city of Cleveland and have that good players something smells. Is there any way to file a petition to the ohsaa for them to be removed or moved up. They should not be in the ohsaa or at least play division 1.

 

[Yappi]

It is time for enrollment based divisions in basketball to go away. Just too many very good players coming together to play basketball at a host school. Doesn't matter if they are public or private. It is obvious that some schools are basketball magnet schools. Go back to the drawing board to come up with a better solution for divisions than enrollment.

 

[Yappi]

I've always said that they should include strength of schedule as a metric in the equation. If you play a D1 schedule, like the Irish do, then you should play in the D1 tournament.

And most of the non-DI schools that StV plays are also playing mostly DI schedules.

 

[cvctrackfan]

Richmond Heights is actually a very small city. Not really near Cleveland. Probably closer to Mentor. There is a lot of affordable housing so therefore it is easy to move into the school district.

 

[JustASpectator]

I look at the Richmond heights boys enrollment there is no way they only have 85 boys in the city of Cleveland and have that good players something smells. Is there any way to file a petition to the ohsaa for them to be removed or moved up. They should not be in the ohsaa or at least play division 1.

Richmond Heights is actually a shrinking outer ring suburb of Cleveland. It use to be a nice community, not so much anymore. The enrollment numbers are down there, however they hired All Ohio Red's HC (Quentin Rogers) to be their coach a few years ago. With his NE Ohio AAU connections, he can get most kids on the east side of Cleveland to come play for him. There is a ton of cheap houses/apartments to rent in the district. Richmond Heights is not much more than an extension to the AAU basketball community that happens to play D4 basketball teams in Feb/March.

 

[cincyhoops]

Just use a tradition formula that was proposed years ago. Over a rolling period (say 4-8 years maybe?) accumulate points based on your tourney finish. Win section get x points, win district get y points, win regional get z points, win state get xx points, etc... Or accumulate points for every tourney win... I am not sure what is best. But the idea would be if you accumulate so many points over a certain number of years you get bumped up. I guess there could be a way to get bumped down as well? I don't know all the details but eventually teams would work their way up/down and find the level they belong at.

The other option is have an independent person in the state or in each region assign teams to the division they should compete in.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[Just.here]

I always liked the idea that if you won a state title, you move up a division for the next X years, if you win in the higher division, you move up another. Similar to European soccer leagues.
Once your X years are up. You move back down based on your enrollment

 

[JAB]

O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with them.

 

[bass10]

I've always said that they should include strength of schedule as a metric in the equation. If you play a D1 schedule, like the Irish do, then you should play in the D1 tournament.

Not necessarily, StV and Dru will at some point NOT be able to get a slew of D1 college players to transfer in and his efforts may come up real short. I'd think a lot of their schedule would be set, should they still play in D1/

 

[Irish60]

Not necessarily, StV and Dru will at some point NOT be able to get a slew of D1 college players to transfer in and his efforts may come up real short. I'd think a lot of their schedule would be set, should they still play in D1/

When that happens, they will win about 2 games in the regular season and it won't really matter much which tournament they play in!

 

[SWOHHoops]

O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with them.

In this next CB cycle their base enrollment is 178 (down from 203 last cycle) so unless they have 30 or so for CB they will be D3 again. Considering last cycle their CB was 0, not likely to move up

 

[D4fan]

I always liked the idea that if you won a state title, you move up a division for the next X years, if you win in the higher division, you move up another. Similar to European soccer leagues.
Once your X years are up. You move back down based on your enrollment

Nothing against you personally, but I hate punishing next years kids for the success of the previous year.

I also think all that would logically happen is the entire team and coach over the summer would move down the street from school X to school Z.

I saw first hand what moving up one division did for the teams of the school my kids attended. They had some chance at reaching a district title game in D4, but moved up to D3 with same coach and similar talent could not win a tournament game let alone 3 or 4.

 

[Just.here]

Nothing against you personally, but I hate punishing next years kids for the success of the previous year.

I also think all that would logically happen is the entire team and coach over the summer would move down the street from school X to school Z.

I saw first hand what moving up one division did for the teams of the school my kids attended. They had some chance at reaching a district title game in D4, but moved up to D3 with same coach and similar talent could not win a tournament game let alone 3 or 4.

No one is being punished, you get the pleasure of playing at a more prestigious level of basketball.
Even if you make it 1 year, who’s losing out on the opportunity to compete in the playoffs?
The juniors from the state title team? No, they just won a state title
The sophomores and freshmen? No they can reload in D4 after a year already knowing what it takes to win in D4 and see what it’s like in D3

 

[cincyhoops]

Nothing against you personally, but I hate punishing next years kids for the success of the previous year.

I also think all that would logically happen is the entire team and coach over the summer would move down the street from school X to school Z.

I saw first hand what moving up one division did for the teams of the school my kids attended. They had some chance at reaching a district title game in D4, but moved up to D3 with same coach and similar talent could not win a tournament game let alone 3 or 4.

Most schools that win a state title aren't one year wonders.

 

[Caleb]

So people always get hung up in numbers. If I'm a coach of a school with say 50 boys but I get 5 or 6 6'-8" students to transfer in that can handle the ball and shoot I can take on any school that has D1 numbers. It looks like my team Canton McKinley will have about 900 boys next year so you would think I could have a couple of those 6'-8" students on the team but they are just not there but if they were they would probably transfer to St. V so sorry I don't want St. V in D1 either.

 

[GPinLV]

California had/has an interesting solution to this ongoing issue for basketball & football (Maybe for other sports as well, I'm not sure). Starting in 2013 for basketball and 2015 for football, an Open Division was created for the superpowers & transfer magnets. I'm not sure of the particulars, such as whether a small school could theoretically refuse to be placed in the Open Division, or if a team can request it, but some of the criteria include past performance such as winning X amount of state or regional titles over a specified period of time.

This article is a little dated, and things may have changed somewhat, but here's an introduction to the concept:

Primer for CIF Basketball Open Division

There’s no secret that the CIF state basketball playoffs, for both boys and girls, has needed a shot in the arm for a long time. The addition of the open division could be the trick. The CIF Federa…

calhisportsfootball.wordpress.com

 

[Destroyer82]

O-G has 3 JH teams feeding into their program and has been within 15 or less of being bumped up for some time, they should be bumped up to D2. It's most of the reason why most D3 schools in the NW District can't keep up with them.

There are only two JH teams now

 

[D4fan]

Most schools that win a state title aren't one year wonders.

D4 Bethel 2001 wins state, next year doesn't get out of sectionals, Marion Local 2019 vs 2020 similar. I think most schools get one shot at it generally and if my kid was punished because the kids above him put him in that position it would not be right IMO. Why should the kids a grade older get an opportunity that the kids following them would not get?

 

[CantonAnon]

If you have x amount of players from outside your district you move up a division. (X+1) you move up two divisions. (X+2) you move up three divisions.

 

[cincyhoops]

D4 Bethel 2001 wins state, next year doesn't get out of sectionals, Marion Local 2019 vs 2020 similar. I think most schools get one shot at it generally and if my kid was punished because the kids above him put him in that position it would not be right IMO. Why should the kids a grade older get an opportunity that the kids following them would not get?

So you’d rather those teams be beaten by teams that recruit? Look at all 4 state champions this year. Pick Central has the All Ohio AAU connection, we know about ASVSM, Taft gets kids from all over Cincy, and the D4 winner was essentially an AAU team.

 

[OnTheLine85]

What I've noticed is that the best athletes are primarily concentrated in a smaller numbers of schools (Eds, X, Mentor, Pick Central, Colerain (not anymore), and most recently Lakota West and Moeller). If you're a stud football player, you're seeking out these programs and not just automatically going to the school by where you grew up.

Imo, it's produced almost an elite division of Division I (and some in Division 2) where only these teams can compete with each other. In the past, a school like Elder could compete with their depth, but even they have started to look overmatched against these teams recently.

It's not as drastic in basketball, but that's what it's done to football, which is the basis of my example above.

 

[D4fan]

So you’d rather those teams be beaten by teams that recruit? Look at all 4 state champions this year. Pick Central has the All Ohio AAU connection, we know about ASVSM, Taft gets kids from all over Cincy, and the D4 winner was essentially an AAU team.

No. What I'd rather is not consider punishing these rural schools, especially at the D4 level, who win a state title with home grown talent. Most public schools that fit into that category have a once in a lifetime group of kids who pass through and then are gone and the school goes back to just hoping for a district title and beyond.

Have to figure out away to hit the target that is truly the culprit in this case. I don't think hitting the next group of kids at a small rural school solves this problem.