What is the status of a 4th Division for CC/Track?

[Finishtiming]

I am just trying to get discussion on this to see what options we have. With every decision (4 divisions or more qualifiers) there are good and bad but with everyone pushing 4 divisions no one is telling the bad and only proposing the good. And most are only talking about the state meet. Lets talk about how we handle districts and regionals and getting officials and sites for all of this. My thoughts are this:
1) have districts be a double district with 2 divisions at each site. Run the div 1 100m, then run the div 2 100m. Since we are most likely going to have less schools at each district now the prelims for distance races most likely will not happen.
2) since we are combining the district officials will not be a problem.
3) regionals could do the same but the second day may have to start earlier.
4) state meet could move to 3 days to help if there is a weather delay. Most schools are out by state meet so there is no conflict with classes.
5) Do we really need as many officials as we have for regionals and state?

 

[mathking]

I am just trying to get discussion on this to see what options we have. With every decision (4 divisions or more qualifiers) there are good and bad but with everyone pushing 4 divisions no one is telling the bad and only proposing the good. And most are only talking about the state meet. Lets talk about how we handle districts and regionals and getting officials and sites for all of this. My thoughts are this:
1) have districts be a double district with 2 divisions at each site. Run the div 1 100m, then run the div 2 100m. Since we are most likely going to have less schools at each district now the prelims for distance races most likely will not happen.
2) since we are combining the district officials will not be a problem.
3) regionals could do the same but the second day may have to start earlier.
4) state meet could move to 3 days to help if there is a weather delay. Most schools are out by state meet so there is no conflict with classes.
5) Do we really need as many officials as we have for regionals and state?

I think #1 is a good idea. Another issue would be districts where the number of teams in a division is no longer big enough to support a meet, forcing those teams to travel longer distances. For example, in some years there have not been enough D1 teams in SE Ohio in track to have their own district meet, and those teams have been sent to the central district.

#2 Correct

#3 Your solution would absolutely work. But if people are dead set against it, couldn't we do something like what we are doing now, maybe with D1 and D3 on Wednesday and Friday, and D2 and d4 on Thursday and Saturday? If we take into account #5 (I absolutely do not think we need as many officials as we have at the regional meets) we would only be adding four total meets. On any given day there would only be 8 HS meets going on in Ohio.

#5 Very good point to consider.

 

[CC Track Fan]

I can save two officials at every district/regional meet. Have the HJ and PV run by one offical. If want a second when bar gets higher have the LJ officials help after that is done. (most times done way before PV is completed). Maybe the 2nd is needed please enlighten me.

Double district/regional may not be ideal but very doable.

 

[Throwscoach]

I am just trying to get discussion on this to see what options we have. With every decision (4 divisions or more qualifiers) there are good and bad but with everyone pushing 4 divisions no one is telling the bad and only proposing the good. And most are only talking about the state meet. Lets talk about how we handle districts and regionals and getting officials and sites for all of this. My thoughts are this:
1) have districts be a double district with 2 divisions at each site. Run the div 1 100m, then run the div 2 100m. Since we are most likely going to have less schools at each district now the prelims for distance races most likely will not happen.
2) since we are combining the district officials will not be a problem.
3) regionals could do the same but the second day may have to start earlier.
4) state meet could move to 3 days to help if there is a weather delay. Most schools are out by state meet so there is no conflict with classes.
5) Do we really need as many officials as we have for regionals and state?

1. The double district would be sort of fun. The day would be longer but overall not to much. The only slow down I would see would be in the a district with something like 6 heats in the 100 or 200. And the amount of officials should be a fair ratio. The one problem I would think of would be seating. Some of the stadiums that host district and regional meets are pretty full with only one district present.

4. The 3 day state meet would sort of be fun. You can run 2 divisions of track event prelims on one day, while the other two divisions compete in their field event finals. The next day you switch, and on day three you have all your track finals in one giant meet. The field events on different days would keep athletes from having to check in and out. Yes one giant track meet for the finals would be a long day, but you put it on a time schedule and that would help keep kids out of the heat.

5. My suggestion about officials would be to get the younger ones state assignments. Have them work with the older ones and learn how to run different events. After the spend a few years working the events have the roles reversed. Each year their should be lets say 10 "new" officials at the state and regional meets.

 

[Running Man 101]

This conversation continues to come up. From my POV, the basis for division breakdowns should be more focused on opportunity. We should have four divisions, but with equal number of school students in each division, not schools. Right now something like 53% of all students in the state are in D1. Each division should have the same number of girl or boy students in it. Yes, this will lead to more schools in the smallest division.

 

[CC Track Fan]

The one problem I would think of would be seating. Some of the stadiums that host district and regional meets are pretty full with only one district present.

Need to remember on average each district would be 25% smaller so you are only looking at a 50% increase in fans not doubling them.

 

[Throwscoach]

Need to remember on average each district would be 25% smaller so you are only looking at a 50% increase in fans not doubling them.

Yes. I was just looking at a possible negative with this.

 

[EuclidandViren]

Since team state championship trophies have been won by 1 outstanding athlete scoring in multiple events, that magical number of athletes to count as a team should be 1.

Exactly. I have been saying this for years.

If not, then the rule should change and the individuals/people without a FULL team DEFINED by OHSAA should not count in the team scoring.

 

[fattire]

Few years back, Warren JFK won D III boys track championship and I am pretty certain they did not have 8 entered at districts.

 

[The_Rocco]

Does anyone know the reason why the new person that took Gabor's place is so anti-4 divisions? I heard he didn't make that many fans at the XC Clinic when he was so blunt about it. He is supposed to be working with the requests of the OATCCC and the OHSAA board of directors. If its because of not currently having a state championship venue, that's bogus. You can't tell me that's taking up his entire job.

 

[psycho_dad]

Since team state championship trophies have been won by 1 outstanding athlete scoring in multiple events, that magical number of athletes to count as a team should be 1.

It takes 5 athletes to win a dual meet. The most basic form of the sport. 5 is the logical number to count as a "team" . The championship format is different and has 2 rounds of qualifying and then a championship meet. It is to your advantage to qualify more people through each round and have more than one athlete at the state meet. Not sure why Euc;lidandViren is so afraid of schools with less than a "full team" , but I disagree that they should not be counted in the team scoring.

Exactly. I have been saying this for years.

If not, then the rule should change and the individuals/people without a FULL team DEFINED by OHSAA should not count in the team scoring.

Bad idea.

Few years back, Warren JFK won D III boys track championship and I am pretty certain they did not have 8 entered at districts.

They had 7 at the District from my recollection. Who knows if they had more on the roster and just didn't take them. The 7 they had were not too shabby.

I believe the OHSAA put out a statement a few years ago saying it was 9 because of the other Spring sports. Not a logical number for the sport, but not unreasonable to get that many kids out.

5 is the correct answer for how many athletes should count as a "team" Want to go and have a pick up track meet, you need 5 to win against a team that can fill every event. Don't care how good your 4 are. They can win everything they are in. Have to have a 5th do something to win if every event and place is scored.

ENA threw the number 4 out there because a relay team consists of 4. That makes sense, but 5 is still the correct answer for the number of athletes that are needed to count as a track and field team. OATCCC needs to get with the OHSAA and get 5 as the official number.

 

[EuclidandViren]

I am just trying to get discussion on this to see what options we have. With every decision (4 divisions or more qualifiers) there are good and bad but with everyone pushing 4 divisions no one is telling the bad and only proposing the good. And most are only talking about the state meet. Lets talk about how we handle districts and regionals and getting officials and sites for all of this. My thoughts are this:
1) have districts be a double district with 2 divisions at each site. Run the div 1 100m, then run the div 2 100m. Since we are most likely going to have less schools at each district now the prelims for distance races most likely will not happen.
2) since we are combining the district officials will not be a problem.
3) regionals could do the same but the second day may have to start earlier.
4) state meet could move to 3 days to help if there is a weather delay. Most schools are out by state meet so there is no conflict with classes.
5) Do we really need as many officials as we have for regionals and state?

Good thoughts.

One proposal presented to OHSAA and OATCCC would be to eliminate the district meet altogether if 4 divisions would pass.

There were a couple of scenarios presented for this proposal and how it would be structured.

One is a super-regional.

One is a time qualification to run at the regional.

One is instead of a district there would be MEGA meets that would help with qualification to the regional meet.

 

[Finishtiming]

Does anyone know the reason why the new person that took Gabor's place is so anti-4 divisions? I heard he didn't make that many fans at the XC Clinic when he was so blunt about it. He is supposed to be working with the requests of the OATCCC and the OHSAA board of directors. If its because of not currently having a state championship venue, that's bogus. You can't tell me that's taking up his entire job.

He is not set against it. He is new and we have discussed it frequently. OATCCC need to present the good and the bad of 4 divisions and were trying to push it past him since he was new and only giving him the good reasons. I have said this many times and I look at everything we do as a business the same way. There is good and bad to every decision you make and you have to look at both. The problem he is having with it is due to the splitting of divisions equally by team as he realizes it would not really move much but it will still be unfair. He cannot split unevenly as the other sports then would want theirs done the same and open a bigger can of worms.

 

[psycho_dad]

He is not set against it. He is new and we have discussed it frequently. OATCCC need to present the good and the bad of 4 divisions and were trying to push it past him since he was new and only giving him the good reasons. I have said this many times and I look at everything we do as a business the same way. There is good and bad to every decision you make and you have to look at both. The problem he is having with it is due to the splitting of divisions equally by team as he realizes it would not really move much but it will still be unfair. He cannot split unevenly as the other sports then would want theirs done the same and open a bigger can of worms.

Football isn't even. That's a poor argument. There are track meets held every weekend. Many more than would be for the Districts. Sites and officials is also a poor excuse. Use friendly / quality officials and people will look past quantity. There really is no bad unless you do not split what is now D1. Easiest solution is one I've talked about for years. D4 and D3 are 1/3, 1/3. D2 and D1 are 1/6, 1/6. . So it would be like taking football down to 4 divisions. D1 like it is now. D2 (D2+D3) D3 (D4+D5) D4 (D6+D7). Just say "We are doing it like football." how could anyone complain then? I find it amazing that in D2 boys 233 out of 226 teams scored at the District meet. 99% How many actual schools are participating at the district level? That's the true number. (or at least more realistic number)

 

[CC Track Fan]

Football isn't even. That's a poor argument. There are track meets held every weekend. Many more than would be for the Districts. Sites and officials is also a poor excuse. Use friendly / quality officials and people will look past quantity. There really is no bad unless you do not split what is now D1. Easiest solution is one I've talked about for years. D4 and D3 are 1/3, 1/3. D2 and D1 are 1/6, 1/6. . So it would be like taking football down to 4 divisions. D1 like it is now. D2 (D2+D3) D3 (D4+D5) D4 (D6+D7). Just say "We are doing it like football." how could anyone complain then? I find it amazing that in D2 boys 233 out of 226 teams scored at the District meet. 99% How many actual schools are participating at the district level? That's the true number. (or at least more realistic number)

I would more split it more like this as only need to separate the biggest 100 schools and this also follows the football method.
D1 - 100 biggest schools
D2 - 1/3rd of remaining teams
D3 - 1/3rd of remaining teams
D4 - 1/3rd of remaining teams

 

[JAVMAN83]

I would more split it more like this as only need to separate the biggest 100 schools and this also follows the football method.
D1 - 100 biggest schools
D2 - 1/3rd of remaining teams
D3 - 1/3rd of remaining teams
D4 - 1/3rd of remaining teams

I would narrow D1 to the "Big 12" from each Region - 48 total. Still too much discrepancy between 1st & 100th, sizewise.

 

[Runningfast]

As parents, fans, coaches, is there anything we can do to get this ball rolling other than wait to be at the whim of the OATCCC and, more importantly, the OHSAA?

They say the squeeky wheel gets the grease...

 

[psycho_dad]

600 up. D1
300-599 D2
150-299 D3
1-149 D4

D4 is only division that competes against schools more than twice their size. Can't get around that.
D1 has a couple schools just over the 600x2, but not by much and there isn't much you can do about that either.

 

[CC Track Fan]

600 up. D1
300-599 D2
150-299 D3
1-149 D4

D4 is only division that competes against schools more than twice their size. Can't get around that.
D1 has a couple schools just over the 600x2, but not by much and there isn't much you can do about that either.

That would work good also.

 

[EuclidandViren]

600 up. D1
300-599 D2
150-299 D3
1-149 D4

D4 is only division that competes against schools more than twice their size. Can't get around that.
D1 has a couple schools just over the 600x2, but not by much and there isn't much you can do about that either.

Right now D1 schools compete against schools 2x and 3x their size. It will happen.

Right now Mason has 1000 more kids in their building compared to 90% of over D1 schools.

 

[psycho_dad]

Right now D1 schools compete against schools 2x and 3x their size. It will happen.

Right now Mason has 1000 more kids in their building compared to 90% of over D1 schools.

Poorly worded on my part. In the system, I propose, D1 schools would be 600 and up, so that schools would not compete against schools more than twice their size. 300 to 600 is a rough place to be right now.

 

[NWO XCTF]

Poorly worded on my part. In the system, I propose, D1 schools would be 600 and up, so that schools would not compete against schools more than twice their size. 300 to 600 is a rough place to be right now.

So which is worse... competing against a school twice your size or competing against schools that literally have 600+ more kids than you do?

 

[psycho_dad]

So which is worse... competing against a school twice your size or competing against schools that literally have 600+ more kids than you do?

Not sure there is a definitive answer for that question. The system/ systems I propose try to eliminate both situations as much as possible. What is your proposal? There is no way to answer which is worse. For the teams with 600 it's the same situation when going against Mason. A

 

[NWO XCTF]

Not sure there is a definitive answer for that question. The system/ systems I propose try to eliminate both situations as much as possible. What is your proposal? There is no way to answer which is worse. For the teams with 600 it's the same situation when going against Mason. A

What's the most you can stretch the divisions to make them "fair"?
Can D4 go from 1 - 250?
Is having 75 boys competing against 250 boys any more/less fair than 600 boys competing against 1,000 boys?
IMO, it's hard for me to be convinced that 75 vs 150 is anywhere near the hardship that the smaller DI schools face against the monster schools.

I know 5 Divisions isn't an option, but this sure would look good to me.

D4: 1-200
D3: 201 - 400
D2: 401-700
D1: 701+ and ALL Private Schools

 

[psycho_dad]

What's the most you can stretch the divisions to make them "fair"?
Can D4 go from 1 - 250?
Is having 75 boys competing against 250 boys any more/less fair than 600 boys competing against 1,000 boys?
IMO, it's hard for me to be convinced that 75 vs 150 is anywhere near the hardship that the smaller DI schools face against the monster schools.

I know 5 Divisions isn't an option, but this sure would look good to me.

D4: 1-200
D3: 201 - 400
D2: 401-700
D1: 701+ and ALL Private Schools

I say yes it is less fair for a school of 75 to go against a school of 250 than a school of 600 vs 1000 because the State tournament rules of the sport only allow 2 kids in any one event per school and a single kid cannot do more than 4 events. There is a point of diminishing returns. I'm not sure where that is, but it's easy enough to look back at past tournament results and see where the championships are being won.

My personal observation is that D2 and D3 are not that bad. D1 seems to need to be cut in half. Just my opinion.

No one is saying 75 vs 150 is less of a hardship than 300 vs 1000. I am saying that 600 vs 1000 is more fair than 300 vs 1000. There are many other factors that could go into a formula, but that would be nearly impossible.

 

[psycho_dad]

Does anyone think a 4th division is in the near future when we don't have a location for the state meet/ meets?

 

[CC Track Fan]

If I was a betting man I don't think we will ever see a 4th division. If CC district team count was any indication the number of "OSHAA full track teams" will be going down and will make it harder to justify a 4th divisioin.

 

[fattire]

I have been the head boys and girls track coach at one of the smallest D1 schools in Ohio for over 20 years. I have been hearing about this 4th division for many, many years. My comment has always been, "I will believe it when I see it. " I agree with you CC Track Fan, I don't think we will ever see it!

 

[psycho_dad]

If I was a betting man I don't think we will ever see a 4th division. If CC district team count was any indication the number of "OSHAA full track teams" will be going down and will make it harder to justify a 4th divisioin.

What was Track and Field team count last year. Didn't seem down much to me. At least D2

I believe, and this is going from a nearly a year ago memory, there were over 20 more schools assigned to D2 District meets than were listed as teams in D2. Boys = 227 teams in the Division... 247 schools assigned. Girls 215 with more than 240 assigned. I think close to 200 schools scored points at the District meets in D2 boys and girls each. Woodridge boys won the D2 State Championsip.

 

[Finishtiming]

State Track meet is back at OSU unless Covid restrictions make it not be there again. (It was not money as the reason for not being there.)