AllSports12
Moderator
No
He may have just announced what happened to cause the personal foul. Many guys aren't experienced in being mic'd up. All that was needed was "dead ball, personal foul #_____ on the offense (or defense).
Ask The Ref?
- Thread starter Yappi
- Start date
He may have just announced what happened to cause the personal foul. Many guys aren't experienced in being mic'd up. All that was needed was "dead ball, personal foul #_____ on the offense (or defense).
Th
Thanks. That's what I thought.
Zunardo
Well-known member
Met with the officials before the game last night, had an interesting discussion on two areas, wondered if our experts could add insight as to frequency and best-practices:
1. The crew had their own personal mics and headphones to communicate with each other. I think that was true in our first game also. I never thought of it before, but it made sense. Is that fairly common today? Or will it become mandatory?
2. Discussing modern scoreboards and the use of iPad touchscreens by the clock operator (our school just went to this last month), they told me they've worked games where the clock operator was actually on the sidelines, and it was easier for them to make any needed clock changes. I would think the clock guy is at a disadvantage there because he can't see the overall play, passes hitting the ground, runners clearly going out of bounds, etc. How do other officials view this practice?
1. The crew had their own personal mics and headphones to communicate with each other. I think that was true in our first game also. I never thought of it before, but it made sense. Is that fairly common today? Or will it become mandatory?
2. Discussing modern scoreboards and the use of iPad touchscreens by the clock operator (our school just went to this last month), they told me they've worked games where the clock operator was actually on the sidelines, and it was easier for them to make any needed clock changes. I would think the clock guy is at a disadvantage there because he can't see the overall play, passes hitting the ground, runners clearly going out of bounds, etc. How do other officials view this practice?
zebrastripes
Well-known member
1. This started at the higher levels in the early 2010s and has trickled down to high school. Not mandatory (yet) but very common.
2. The game clock operator should be watching the officials and their signals to determine when to stop/start the clock and not the action on the field, so I don’t think it makes much of a difference from that respect. Since most HS stadiums don’t have a Referee microphone, it’s definitely easier to get the clock adjusted when the operator is on the field rather than having to tell one of the coaches to relay the correct time up to the press box. And going back to #1, if the crew has an extra radio with them, it can be helpful to give it to the clock operator especially if he’s in the press box. We just need to make sure we get it back after the game.
AllSports12
Moderator
The bolded part is the most important part.1. This started at the higher levels in the early 2010s and has trickled down to high school. Not mandatory (yet) but very common.
2. The game clock operator should be watching the officials and their signals to determine when to stop/start the clock and not the action on the field, so I don’t think it makes much of a difference from that respect. Since most HS stadiums don’t have a Referee microphone, it’s definitely easier to get the clock adjusted when the operator is on the field rather than having to tell one of the coaches to relay the correct time up to the press box. And going back to #1, if the crew has an extra radio with them, it can be helpful to give it to the clock operator especially if he’s in the press box. We just need to make sure we get it back after the game.
The clock operator is part of the officiating crew.
AllSports12
Moderator
By rule, bandanas, skull caps, and head bands are legal as long as they do not alter the way the helmet fits (not sure how we are to determine that) and are not exposed outside the helmet. The reason for this rule is 100% safety related.
Hair cannot be regulated for obvious reasons and is exempt from the rule.
Burreaux
Mr. SEO
Tha
thats good clarification, just thought it was odd that they did it I figured it would basically be like a player having long hair
1. We started using radio sets last year. I have mixed opinions. I doubt they will become mandatory.
2. We've had games with the play clock operator on the field with the chain crew. I like that. I would prefer that the game clock operator wait for our signal than to decide for himself when to stop the game clock.
AllSports12
Moderator
There is no "offsides" under NFHS Rules. The foul you describe is Encroachment.
There has been no change to this rule.
Team A recovers onside kick. Offense sets up, umpire lines up beside the tailback in the pistol, qb starts his cadence, Umpire realizes he’s on the wrong side of the ball and takes off to defensive side. Wr starts in motion, has to slow down to avoid the umpire. He makes it past LOS and ball is snapped. Referee was watching whole thing go down and doesn’t whistle pre snap to let him get set. It doesn’t affect the play directly, but the offensive team did fumble on that play. Should whistle have been blown?
zebrastripes
Well-known member
Did the referee mark the ball ready for play following the kick? I’m confused by the “doesn’t whistle pre snap” verbiage.
There is no provision in the rules that allows a “do over” when an official, whether in or out of proper position, affects the play. The officials are part of the field. Ideally, the ready for play shouldn’t be blown if officials are not in position (since this is following a kick the :25 play clock is in effect), or if it has been blown for some reason, the play should be killed to allow the umpire to get into position.
zebrastripes
Well-known member
Yes, if the umpire is that far out of position, the snap should be held until he gets into position.
AllSports12
Moderator
Based on what you describe.....
Yes for two reasons......
1) He's obviously in the way starting next to the back and could be further in the way if the ball was snapped when he was still behind the LOS.
2) To take orders from each of the crew members on how they wanted their steak prepared after the game
The Dock
Persona Non Grata
Are crews required to throw a marker (e.g. a “bean bag”) on fumbles, muffed kicks and backwards passes that aren’t caught? Was at a game recently where they weren’t.
Team ‘A’ is kicking onside. ‘A’ recovers the onside beyond ten yards downfield from the kick. It’s signaled as Team ‘A’ ball. Refs throw flags, offsetting deadball personal fouls (one each on ‘A’ and ‘B’, receiving team.) Refs make ‘A’ rekick. This right call?
Team ‘A’ is kicking onside. ‘A’ recovers the onside beyond ten yards downfield from the kick. It’s signaled as Team ‘A’ ball. Refs throw flags, offsetting deadball personal fouls (one each on ‘A’ and ‘B’, receiving team.) Refs make ‘A’ rekick. This right call?
Fumble yes, muffed kick no, backward pass not caught is treated as a fumble. "Required" is not exactly the correct term, but it is the proper mechanic and should be done.
If they were live ball fouls the down would be replayed. If they were truly dead ball fouls after the play was over, no.
AllSports12
Moderator
The main reason the bean bag is thrown is for penalty enforcement. The bag denotes the end of the run and could become an enforcement spot for fouls that occurred prior to the end of the run.
The secondary reasons are to indicate to all that player possession has been lost (could prevent an inadvertent whistle), the spot of the end of a kick (for post scrimmage kick foul enforcement), the spot of a catch if momentum carried a player into the end zone, the spot of first touching by k, a sideline dead ball spot if an official has to leave that spot to break up or prevent a skirmish/fight after the play......
soccerdad72
Well-known member
Unusual situation this weekend.
Team A scores with less than a minute left in the 4th to tie the game. Teams line up for the go ahead extra point. Before the ball is snapped, Team B jumps offsides. Ball gets moved half the distance. Same circumstance occurs 8 more times. Team B seemingly is choosing to intentionally jump offsides repeatedly.
No real questions for refs, just thought it was a strange way to "ice" a kicker. Didn't make any difference, as once they finally let the ball get snapped, XP was made. Can't imagine the refs were thrilled over the extra 10-15 minutes that took.
Team A scores with less than a minute left in the 4th to tie the game. Teams line up for the go ahead extra point. Before the ball is snapped, Team B jumps offsides. Ball gets moved half the distance. Same circumstance occurs 8 more times. Team B seemingly is choosing to intentionally jump offsides repeatedly.
No real questions for refs, just thought it was a strange way to "ice" a kicker. Didn't make any difference, as once they finally let the ball get snapped, XP was made. Can't imagine the refs were thrilled over the extra 10-15 minutes that took.
AllSports12
Moderator
When a team repeatedly commits fouls that result in halving the distance to the goal line the Referee has two options under Rule 9-9-2...
- He can enforce any penalty that he/she feels is equitable, which includes the awarding of a score.
- He can declare a forfeit
In this situation, the R should award the score (2 points if they are lined absent a kicker/holder) and warn the HC that any further repeated intentional fouls would result the the game being ended. (he also should report the action to the assigner and the state association)
soccerdad72
Well-known member
Interesting - thanks for the insight!
*67
Well-known member
I'm sure it's been covered in the 84 pages, but I'm jumping in anyway.
Why are football officials terrified, absolutely petrified, to throw a flag on intentional grounding? Every single time I've seen it called the last two or three years, there's a conference between the officials. It's the only penalty where every single time it's called, there's a conference. I haven't seen the flag thrown immediately, either. It's always after the conference. I saw a play this weekend where, legitimately not an exaggeration, the nearest receiver was 20 yards down field, and the ball barely got back to the line of scrimmage. It was textbook intentional grounding, and it wasn't called.
So, that's my question. Why are officials afraid to call penalties when they see them?
I'll hang up and listen to your answer.
Why are football officials terrified, absolutely petrified, to throw a flag on intentional grounding? Every single time I've seen it called the last two or three years, there's a conference between the officials. It's the only penalty where every single time it's called, there's a conference. I haven't seen the flag thrown immediately, either. It's always after the conference. I saw a play this weekend where, legitimately not an exaggeration, the nearest receiver was 20 yards down field, and the ball barely got back to the line of scrimmage. It was textbook intentional grounding, and it wasn't called.
So, that's my question. Why are officials afraid to call penalties when they see them?
I'll hang up and listen to your answer.
AllSports12
Moderator
Great question...
IG is unique because the only person charged with the responsibility of throwing the flag (Referee) isn't watching where the ball goes. He has eyes on the passer and all the action that occurs before and after the ball is released.
Because of this, the other officials will come to the official and provide information to the Referee that will allow him to determine whether or not a foul has occurred. If a wing official comes to him and says "I have an eligible receiver in the area (gives him a number) then we don't have a foul. If that official comes to him and says "I have nobody in the area" or " the ball went 10 yards out of bounds", the Referee then takes that information and combines it with what happened as the pass was being thrown. Pressure, how the passer was set up, ability, all play a part here.... The Referee then makes his determination as to whether the criteria for IG has been met.
The delay, while it looks odd.... is exactly what is taught at all levels of officiating.
This is one instance where perception isn't reality.
You must be watching some good officials. That is exactly what we are supposed to do.
Longer answer. I wear a white hat. After the QB passes the ball I keep my eyes on him looking for late hits and cheap shots. That is my job. When the QB is clear I will scan the assembled linemen checking for any nonsense there. On most pass plays the only way I know if the pass is complete, incomplete, or intercepted is by the cheers or groans of the crowd.
Simply put, if there is a receiver in the area of an incomplete pass it is not intentional grounding. If there is no receiver, the official in that area will come back and tell me. Maybe the QB was being sacked and the pass went wild. I would know that, he might not. Maybe the pass was tipped. Maybe neither of us saw that but the umpire did. If we decide that it was intentional grounding, I drop my flag on the line from where the QB passed the ball. I would know that, he would not.
It takes at least two, that is why there should always be a conference.
Yappi
Go Buckeyes
Going back to the Browns game two Sundays ago, something that has really bothered me even though I'm not technically a Browns fan.
Browns player makes play on sideline. Players tangled up and Chiefs coach shoves Browns player. Browns player responds with a push/punch. I believe both sides were penalized but the Browns player was ejected (and fined).
For the most part, I don't see a situation like that happening in HS football because coaches have more respect for players and know not to put their hands on an opponent in anger like the Chiefs coach. But if it were to happen just like it did in the Browns game, what would the call and potential ejections look like in HS football?
In case you don't follow the NFL:
Browns player makes play on sideline. Players tangled up and Chiefs coach shoves Browns player. Browns player responds with a push/punch. I believe both sides were penalized but the Browns player was ejected (and fined).
For the most part, I don't see a situation like that happening in HS football because coaches have more respect for players and know not to put their hands on an opponent in anger like the Chiefs coach. But if it were to happen just like it did in the Browns game, what would the call and potential ejections look like in HS football?
In case you don't follow the NFL:
AllSports12
Moderator
NFHS...
Both are gone for flagrant actions. The dead ball fouls offset, the down counts.
Game reports will detail the actions of both and the powers that be will decide the post game penalties. (coach is going to have some severe penalties levied)
Reddengineer
Active member
Has the rule for kickoff out of bounds changed? We had one Friday, they awarded ball at the spot + a five yard penalty. I thought the 5 was only assessed on a re-kick?