Past vs Current High School VB Comparison

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Panthervolleyball

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This is mainly a response to the Ohio Alumni team posts. I think the level of men's volleyball as a whole has dramatically improved in the past decade. I think the top high school teams of today are far and above better than the top high school teams of 2000-2007. The players are starting earlier and have become more fundamentally sound as a result. The players are more athletic and the pace of the game is faster. Watch a Ball state vs. Penn state game from 2008 and you'll see what I mean. The setters aren't jump-setting and the hitters aren't getting up or hitting as hard as college players today. The same can be said about a high school championship from 2007 compared to 2016. Lee Meyer or Andy Pompeii and some of the other "greats" don't even compare to players today. Holt and cash are exceptions to this and we're very talented players.
 
 
Sure from 2000-2010 I would argue the top teams (Excluding 2007 Moeller and 2008 Elder) weren't as good as the best teams in recent years, but it's not because the players jump any higher or are more athletic. It's because those teams only had a couple (3 or 4) players that would be considered strong players by todays standards. Those teams would have weak links that would get exploited, but the best players on each team were just as athletic and fundamentally sound as the best players today.

Teams today have kids that play club and get cut from their high school team. That would have rarely, if ever, happened back then.

Side note: Panthervolleyball aka Darbyboy, How many times have you seen Lee Meyer or Andy Pompeii play?
 
Disagree completely with the opening post. The teams now have more depth but the talent overall isn't better. The X team with Kehoe, the Moeller team with Meyer and Brandel and the Elder team with the Wessels would handle any of the last 5-6 State Champions.
 
I agree with the first post that the game is faster and the overall athleticism is better than it was before 2010. But better athletes don't always guarantee to be better volleyball players. I disagree with the last post because I think the 2013 Darby team could have beaten any of those teams. Also, that team finished higher at the Chicago tournament than any team in Moeller's history of going to that same tournament. I think the same for the State Champion St. Ed's squad based on two studs that could take over matches at any time.
 
2013 Darby was big, but they aren't beating any of the three teams I mentioned. To me they are a tier below. They're definitely the cream of the crop of all the teams since 2010 IMO. St Eds Championship team wouldn't beat 2013 Darby IMO so I don't think they're in the discussion either.
 
I'd disagree there ads, that Darby team was able to combine the size and athleticism that they always seem to have with strong passing. Think they are dead even with the Moeller 07 and Elder 08 teams you mentioned and above X 06. After those, I would say Elder 14 is the next best team.

After that I think teams that didn't win the state championship would come up on my list. X 14, Darby 16, Elder 07.
 
I agree and disagree with this.

In regards to high school - I disagree. I think the talent has been dropping off year after year for a while, with a few exceptions here and there. Sure the athletes now jump higher, hit harder, and the game is faster - but the players now are not as talented as the kids from the mid 2000's. But I think this may have to do with new teams popping up across the state - more bad teams with bad players.

I regards to club. I agree. The kids now are consistently competing and winning at levels not seen before in Ohio. Why do you think that is?
 
ADS sums it up best in his first post - teams have more depth now but the top players now aren't as good as the players from back then.

Rarely do we have players now going to Division 1/2 schools (mostly D3) as opposed to back then when a few kids a year would go D 1/2. 2000-2009 had Max Holt (PSU), Steve Kehoe (OSU), Mike Wauligman (OSU), Greg Randolph (OSU), Danny Brandel (OSU), Mike Randolph (IPFW), Mike Daiga (IPFW), Blake McCormick (OSU), Mark Leyman (OSU), Ben Spurlock (OSU), Pat Blubaugh (IPFW), John Tholen (OSU), Anthony Randolph (IPFW), Rhett Cash (OSU), Carter Cassle (Lewis), Andrew Craine (Lewis), Greg Herceg (Ball State) Lee Meyer (Ball St), Brian Kues (OSU), Derek Kues (OSU), Joe Sokol (Quincy), Conor Martin (OSU), Brett Versen (OSU) Robbie Klein (OSU) Jason Tobkin (OSU). And thats just off the top of my head.
 
To clarify, I'm only putting St. Ed's in the mix because if both Powers and McAndrews were on, they could beat anyone once. Always some speculation, but I can't say any team could beat them 10 out of 10 for sure. Teams only need 1 win out of 10 to advance.
 
The 2013 Darby team gets my vote for the best high school team in Ohio history.. that team was loaded..

Jarrod Kelso(Quincy)
Thane(Quincy)
JB Brinkerhoff(Lewis then Quincy)
Jesse Print(Pfeiffer)
Eric Bowman(Alderson-Broaddus)
Zach Kuebler(MSJ)

And a quick note, Both Thane and Kelso could be playing at bigger programs... especially Kelso, I really believe he is one of the top middles in the MIVA

08 Elder was also unreal, 07 Moeller, 13 Moeller, etc.

Even in current times teams aren't very complete. Fenwick when they were really good rode 2 players and almost beat state runner up(D1) Elder in 13, Watterson the next year rode two guys to the D2 final and a buckeye classic tourney win. Pick North rode two guys this past year. Beavercreek rode two guys this past year.

Usually in a year IMO only 4-5 teams statewide are really complete teams. Then every couple of years there is a really fantastic team. If we get lucky(like in 13) then there's two really REALLY fantastic teams
 
Ahh... the good ol' "who is the best team ever" argument again haha

The only point I would like to make in this is that it looks like there is a lot of weight of crowning the best HS team on who went on to play in College.. Yes this is a good indication of who was good that year, but I dont think that this should be overly considered for who was the best HS team.. I think people get too caught up on how good these players are throughout there career, and do not focus on where they were in HS.

Keep in mind the 2008 POY in Ohio did not go to college to play volleyball..
 
If you want to get technical. You'd have to say that Moeller '07 and/or Elder '08 are the best teams ever. They didn't lose a single match either of those years. Sure Darby went 24-1 only losing 1 match in 2013 - but Moeller '07 and Elder '08 were literally unbeatable those years. Darby wasn't unbeatable in 2013.
 
Crusaders1 said:
If you want to get technical. You'd have to say that Moeller '07 and/or Elder '08 are the best teams ever. They didn't lose a single match either of those years. Sure Darby went 24-1 only losing 1 match in 2013 - but Moeller '07 and Elder '08 were literally unbeatable those years. Darby wasn't unbeatable in 2013.
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Moeller '07 is not in the discussion IMO. Could barely beat an Elder team of all Juniors. Elder 08' had no competition. Second best team in the state that year was Darby, who had athletes but no ball control.

I'm taking Darby 2013 as well. Best combo of athletes and ball control. Also, my son was a 13', And if I remember correctly Darby made a big lineup change after that loss.
Elder 08' second

Clearly these are all just opinions.
 
Outworker said:
Moeller '07 is not in the discussion IMO. Could barely beat an Elder team of all Juniors. Elder 08' had no competition. Second best team in the state that year was Darby, who had athletes but no ball control.

I'm taking Darby 2013 as well. Best combo of athletes and ball control. Also, my son was a 13', And if I remember correctly Darby made a big lineup change after that loss.
Elder 08' second

Clearly these are all just opinions.
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So because Moeller 07 almost lost a match to the clear second best team in the state that year they are out of the running... LOL

Elder 07 had Toth, Hanneken, Buttleworth, and Averbeck who all started and were seniors.

Darby 08 was not the second best team in the state that year. They were probably actually 4th best. Moeller beat them every time they played, and St X beat Moeller to make it to state.

I am one that is arguing there isn't a clear favorite between those three teams, but your arguments have quite a few holes in them.

The common theme between all those teams was no real weak links to go with GREAT setters and at least two hitters they could count on in crunch time
 
Outworker said:
Moeller '07 is not in the discussion IMO. Could barely beat an Elder team of all Juniors. Elder 08' had no competition. Second best team in the state that year was Darby, who had athletes but no ball control.

I'm taking Darby 2013 as well. Best combo of athletes and ball control. Also, my son was a 13', And if I remember correctly Darby made a big lineup change after that loss.
Elder 08' second

Clearly these are all just opinions.
Click to expand...
Both of your reasons for eliminating both Elder '08 and Moeller '07 are total cop outs. If you want to use that logic, Darby was lucky they didn't go 5 with Elder in the State Final in '13, and that was not a great Elder team. Not to mention their loss to Moeller earlier that season.

Also Elder's '07 team of "all juniors" started/played more seniors than juniors. :laugh:
Seniors: Averbeck, Buttelworth, Hannekan, Schimmel, Toth
Juniors: Wessels, Wessels, Baldrick, Bertke
 
adselder09 said:
Both of your reasons for eliminating both Elder '08 and Moeller '07 are total cop outs. If you want to use that logic, Darby was lucky they didn't go 5 with Elder in the State Final in '13, and that was not a great Elder team. Not to mention their loss to Moeller earlier that season.

Also Elder's '07 team of "all juniors" started/played more seniors than juniors. :laugh:
Seniors: Averbeck, Buttelworth, Hannekan, Schimmel, Toth
Juniors: Wessels, Wessels, Baldrick, Bertke
Click to expand...

Someone is drinking some Purple Panther Juice.

You think they were lucky it didn't go 5? Meanwhile non-biased viewers think Elder was lucky to ever take a game.

Below are the scores from Darby Elder during that season.
25-22
25-15
25-16
25-14
25-20
25-13
25-17
25-15
25-27
25-23

Not even close....

Looking back Darby lost 8 sets all season, 2 of which were in the final of the Wheaton Warrenville Classic, and only dropped 2 sets after the lineup change. Moeller also returned 4 starters in 13' from the team that won it all in 12'.

The real final that year was in the final four which drained those players out.
The same thing that happened this year when Moeller was drained after playing Darby.

Also, the Juniors from the Elder 08' were the best players in 07' and 08'. Unless you are a middle, if you can't play all the way around you ain't that sweet.

Again just opinion, but I doubt either of us will change ours:)
 
Outworker said:
Someone is drinking some Purple Panther Juice.

You think they were lucky it didn't go 5? Meanwhile non-biased viewers think Elder was lucky to ever take a game.

Below are the scores from Darby Elder during that season.
25-22
25-15
25-16
25-14
25-20
25-13
25-17
25-15
25-27
25-23

Not even close....

Looking back Darby lost 8 sets all season, 2 of which were in the final of the Wheaton Warrenville Classic, and only dropped 2 sets after the lineup change. Moeller also returned 4 starters in 13' from the team that won it all in 12'.

The real final that year was in the final four which drained those players out.
The same thing that happened this year when Moeller was drained after playing Darby.

Also, the Juniors from the Elder 08' were the best players in 07' and 08'. Unless you are a middle, if you can't play all the way around you ain't that sweet.

Again just opinion, but I doubt either of us will change ours:)
Click to expand...

Agreed up until the bold, where you seem to just start trolling...:laugh:
 
Outworker said:
Moeller '07 is not in the discussion IMO. Could barely beat an Elder team of all Juniors. Elder 08' had no competition. Second best team in the state that year was Darby, who had athletes but no ball control.

I'm taking Darby 2013 as well. Best combo of athletes and ball control. Also, my son was a 13', And if I remember correctly Darby made a big lineup change after that loss.
Elder 08' second

Clearly these are all just opinions.
Click to expand...

Elder '08 didnt have any competition? You have Darby as the second best team in the state in '08? Did you forget that Elder whooped on Darby in game 3 of the final 4, 25-9 @ Darby!? Looks like Darby wasn't much competition
 
Crusaders1 said:
Elder '08 didnt have any competition? You have Darby as the second best team in the state in '08? Did you forget that Elder whooped on Darby in game 3 of the final 4, 25-9 @ Darby!? Looks like Darby wasn't much competition
Click to expand...

It was at Davidson.

And I agree they weren't much competition, but I think that match still went 4:)
 
A team that has not been mentioned was the 2010 Hoban team that lost its first match against Mt Vernon and then won 26 straight. They finished 5th Nationally ESPN ranking and beat the D1 State Champion St Eds two times the same year.
 
VolleyBFan said:
A team that has not been mentioned was the 2010 Hoban team that lost its first match against Mt Vernon and then won 26 straight. They finished 5th Nationally ESPN ranking and beat the D1 State Champion St Eds two times the same year.
Click to expand...

Didn't they finish 3rd in the Nation?
 
VolleyBFan said:
A team that has not been mentioned was the 2010 Hoban team that lost its first match against Mt Vernon and then won 26 straight. They finished 5th Nationally ESPN ranking and beat the D1 State Champion St Eds two times the same year.
Click to expand...

Nope, Elder won the ship in 2010. St. Ed's in 2011.
 
:laugh: Come on, those ESPN rankings were fun but no team from Ohio should have sniffed the top 10. Hoban did have some strong teams at the turn of the decade.
 
Outworker said:
Someone is drinking some Purple Panther Juice.
Click to expand...
I'm drinking the Purple Panther juice but....
Outworker said:
I'm taking Darby 2013 as well. Best combo of athletes and ball control. Also, my son was a 13'
Click to expand...
Can't get more biased than that.

You think they were lucky it didn't go 5? Meanwhile non-biased viewers think Elder was lucky to ever take a game.

Below are the scores from Darby Elder during that season.
25-22
25-15
25-16
25-14
25-20
25-13
25-17
25-15
25-27
25-23

Not even close....
Click to expand...
I mean if you want to get technical Elder was lucky to even be there based on their season and then that marathon of a match against St Ignatius that weekend. But if Darby was head and shoulders that much better then they would have swept Elder and it wouldn't have been close. Instead they allowed Elder to sneak away with Game 3 and eeked out Game 4.

Looking back Darby lost 8 sets all season, 2 of which were in the final of the Wheaton Warrenville Classic, and only dropped 2 sets after the lineup change. Moeller also returned 4 starters in 13' from the team that won it all in 12'.
Click to expand...
Looking back for comparison's sake:
Moeller '07 - 29-0, State Champion, I've only found their 4 sets lost to Elder (if anyone has that number they can correct me)
Elder '08 - 29-0, State Champion, 7 sets lost (never went to 5)

The real final that year was in the final four which drained those players out.
The same thing that happened this year when Moeller was drained after playing Darby.
Click to expand...
For 2013 sure I'll give you that one, but for 2016 that's debatable. Elder and Moeller split their regular season meetings (E 3-0 at Elder), Moeller (3-2 @ Moeller) but Moeller did get the better of Elder at Centerville (3-0) two days after going to 5 at Moe. I don't doubt that Moeller was drained from the Darby match in the semifinal, but Elder belonged and proved they could play with and beat Moeller earlier in the season.

Also, the Juniors from the Elder 08' were the best players in 07' and 08'. Unless you are a middle, if you can't play all the way around you ain't that sweet.
Click to expand...
Averbeck would have something to say about that. And as good as Wessels was he didn't play all-around as a setter in '07 either. Only two to go all the way around would be both outside hitters (Averbeck and Wessels).

Again just opinion, but I doubt either of us will change ours:)
Click to expand...
But yes we'll agree to disagree.
 
Elder just always seems to peak at the end of the year and play above their individual talent levels. I've said it before, but that coaching staff deserves a lot of credit for getting those teams to finish the year strong. In 2010 St. Ed and Moeller were the favorites, in 2014 St. X was the favorite, and in 2016 it was all Moeller and Darby, but Elder found a way to win the big games.

Recently, they do seem to end up on the side of the bracket where the two top dogs have to fight it out (2013, 2014, and 2016), but that's just the luck of the state tournament draw
 
Well when one of the favorites is also from the South as has been the case: 2010 Moeller, 2014 St X, 2016 Moeller then they're definitely opposite of them. The two times Darby has had really good teams or been near the favorite line (2013 and 2016) they did end up on the opposite side from them as well.
 
Or maybe they could seed the tournament according to state rankings just like every other sport does when it comes to the tournament. So the 2 best teams don't play in the final 4. Instead of just "rotating regions" each year
 
Crusaders1 said:
Or maybe they could seed the tournament according to state rankings just like every other sport does when it comes to the tournament. So the 2 best teams don't play in the final 4. Instead of just "rotating regions" each year
Click to expand...

What? I can't think of one sport that does this. They seed the region, not the state. The State Rankings are for fun and rarely mean anything when it comes to the playoffs. Some sports do have a re-bracket option, most of the time this is used in football to match up teams who may be closer in proximity for the Semifinal.

Personally I enjoy the rotation of the volleyball finals. It would get pretty boring watching the GCL battle GWOC in the Semifinals every year.
 
Agreed with ads. The setup volleyball uses now is about as good as it gets. Just the fact that two teams from the same region can make it to state is fantastic. Most sports only one regional winner advances. If that happened in Ohio vball, the "real" state championship match would happen in the South regional finals over 75% of years.

I'm fine not reseeding based on the state ranking, because if you have looked at them over the years, some coaches vote quite bizarrely and really screw up the ranks. The rotating of what regions are on the same side of the bracket works just fine for me
 
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