Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority  

Go Back   Yappi Sports - THE Ohio Prep Sports Authority > Boys HS Sports > Boys Track & Field/Cross Country

Hello Guest!
Take a minute to register, It's 100% FREE! What are you waiting for?
Register Now
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 09-21-17, 04:11 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
Go Buckeyes
 
Join Date: 04-15-01
Location: Ohio
Posts: 45,276
Yappi will become famous soon enough
Proposal to add two qualifiers to state track meet in running events approved

OHSAA Release:
By a 9-0 vote, the board approved a proposal from the Ohio Association of Track and Cross Country Coaches to add two qualifiers to the state track meet in the running events only. Previously, 16 qualifiers advanced to the state meet, with most races consisting of two heats with eight runners each. Since Ohio State’s Jesse Owens Memorial Stadium has a nine-lane track, two additional qualifiers can compete. After the top four finishers from each of the four regional tournaments advance to the state tournament, the additional qualifiers will come from the two fastest times recorded at the four regionals.
Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 09-21-17, 05:13 PM
CoventryTrackXCguy CoventryTrackXCguy is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 10-28-15
Location: Coventry, Ohio
Posts: 754
CoventryTrackXCguy is on a distinguished road
Hmm. So they actually approved that.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-21-17, 05:45 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,665
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
time performances are the easy way out. Total crap if you have a tailwind in the 100 or you race the mile in a sit and kick race. Someone is getting screwed. What they need to do is take the next two in each event that was closest to the 4th place time. THe only fair way to do it.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-21-17, 06:10 PM
panott panott is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 02-23-07
Posts: 447
panott is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
time performances are the easy way out. Total crap if you have a tailwind in the 100 or you race the mile in a sit and kick race. Someone is getting screwed. What they need to do is take the next two in each event that was closest to the 4th place time. THe only fair way to do it.
We need to be happy with getting the extra people into the State Meet. There is no completely fair way to get them there and over time things will average out as to where people come from(which Regional). So,in the above example, we have a slow strategical race in the 1600 but #5 finishes .01 behind #4 so he/she gets to go?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-21-17, 06:27 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-08-06
Posts: 2,993
SOTT is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
time performances are the easy way out. Total crap if you have a tailwind in the 100 or you race the mile in a sit and kick race. Someone is getting screwed. What they need to do is take the next two in each event that was closest to the 4th place time. THe only fair way to do it.
Here's an idea: be in the top four in your regional and it's moot. It's an ADDITIONAL two kids, it's not like they're going strictly on time for all spots. Those fifth place kids with a big headwind in the 100 weren't ever going to get the chance to qualify before so how is it unfair to now open it up to the possibility?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-21-17, 06:50 PM
Altor Altor is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 06-29-10
Posts: 805
Altor is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
Those fifth place kids with a big headwind in the 100 weren't ever going to get the chance to qualify before so how is it unfair to now open it up to the possibility?
It's not unfair. Regardless, I predict at least one complaint this spring on Yappi about a headwind. I bet a Regional referee gets requests to turn the sprints around in 2019 and we will have at least one Regional run on the backstretch by 2020.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-21-17, 07:16 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-08-06
Posts: 2,993
SOTT is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Altor View Post
It's not unfair. Regardless, I predict at least one complaint this spring on Yappi about a headwind. I bet a Regional referee gets requests to turn the sprints around in 2019 and we will have at least one Regional run on the backstretch by 2020.
Agreed.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-21-17, 07:20 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,371
mathking is on a distinguished road
There will certainly be "unfairness" in that winds will be different. There will be unfairness because some sites have a bunch of fast 1600 runners (necessitating faster times) while others have fewer fast kids so the pace will be slower. But Altor and SOTT are spot on. It is two additional spots. No one is being disadvantaged over current practice. Not at all.

Also, I have trouble seeing any way that "closest to 4th place" is any more fair than taking the next two fastest. It's just different. So you were closer to the 4th spot? That could just as easily reverse your example - a sit and kick race will tend to have closer finishes. It might just be that in your regional the 4th place finisher was terrible.

There is no completely "fair" way to do this in any event. The current system allows "slower" kids to advance from one district to the regional or one regional to the state compared to others. Going to a performance system at the regional means that bad weather could totally shaft the kids at one site compared to another. Going to a season based performance system advantages teams that are near lots of other good teams, and leads to kids getting into the state meet when they are no longer able to perform at the level that qualified them. There is actually a proof that any such ranking/selection system is going to have some "bad" results.

Can't we just be happy that the coaches' association requested something and the board approved it? Now, about the triple jump...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-21-17, 07:37 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is online now
All World
 
Join Date: 08-17-10
Posts: 2,671
psycho_dad is on a distinguished road
The gripe is going to come from the District that could have gotten the 5th or 6th kid through to the state, but didn't even get a chance at the Regional.

Does it include relays too?

I'm anxious to see if races get tighter at the Regionals because 5th and 6th could be very important.

What this ensures is that we never get a 4th division.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 09-21-17, 08:32 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 06-17-16
Posts: 132
CC Track Fan is on a distinguished road
This is a good move and by time is the best way to do. Sure may not be completely fair but no way would be. I would like if they changed it to the two fastest 5th place finishers.

One other change I would like to see is if a athlete decides to scratch an event before the day before his events starts the next qualifier from that region can take the open spot.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 09-21-17, 08:33 PM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,665
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
The gripe is going to come from the District that could have gotten the 5th or 6th kid through to the state, but didn't even get a chance at the Regional.

Does it include relays too?

I'm anxious to see if races get tighter at the Regionals because 5th and 6th could be very important.

What this ensures is that we never get a 4th division.
Relays and field is what I would guess. They like to keep things even.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 09-21-17, 08:40 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,391
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
I'll be praying for a big long lightning delay.

We're an hour or more behind due to lightning. The other 3 regions run the 3200, and I can see their times via live results. The 3200 at my site is an hour away, so I can say "OK, maybe we don't have to throw caution to the wind to be in the top 4, but we can run a more calculated race for time and snag 1 of the 2 wildcard spots."
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 09-21-17, 08:55 PM
Napcat2000 Napcat2000 is offline
Freshman
 
Join Date: 08-13-16
Posts: 21
Napcat2000 is on a distinguished road
http://www.ohsaa.org/news-media/arti...ing-Highlights
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 09-21-17, 10:37 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,391
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
Relays and field is what I would guess. They like to keep things even.
The press release says running events only, so relays would be a yes. Makes sense because high jump and pole vault might have a difficult time yielding a clear cut "next 2 in."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 09-22-17, 06:49 AM
starcatcher8 starcatcher8 is offline
Varsity
 
Join Date: 02-09-10
Posts: 98
starcatcher8 is on a distinguished road
I agree with all of the people who said to quit complaining. Geesh! Two more competitors (8 - counting relays) get to experience the state meet.

On a further note, what would be wrong with having more than 18 field event
participants in each field event if there were ties at the regional level? I suppose those same people complaining would say that is unfair to the running event athletes.

I prefer to have an attitude where I am thankful for things, rather than dwelling on the negative.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09-22-17, 07:14 AM
Altor Altor is offline
All Ohio
 
Join Date: 06-29-10
Posts: 805
Altor is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Napcat2000 View Post
In related news...
Quote:
  • The two-day high school track and field state meet drew 27,409 fans and resulted in proceeds of $21,824.
  • The inaugural 7th & 8th Grade State Track Championships drew 1,927 fans and resulted in a financial net loss of $9,019.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 09-22-17, 07:39 AM
horridus horridus is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 09-12-10
Posts: 323
horridus is on a distinguished road
Maybe they need to start charging $6 for a bottle of water instead of the standard $4.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 09-22-17, 08:46 AM
Finishtiming Finishtiming is offline
All Region
 
Join Date: 01-25-10
Posts: 326
Finishtiming is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcatcher8 View Post

On a further note, what would be wrong with having more than 18 field event
participants in each field event if there were ties at the regional level? I suppose those same people complaining would say that is unfair to the running event athletes.
The problem is HJ and PV. As of now you break a tie with a jump off for 4th place. If you bring in the next 2 that is fine but if you have 20 people from 4 regionals tied for those spots there is no possible way to have a jump off. You could have a majority of them in the meet and now you cannot complete the event on time at the state meet because you just doubled the size of the event. This happens at the indoor state meet all the time and causes problems. I think last year we had something like 35 kids in a hj event due to ties since they take best marks with no other qualifying procedure.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 09-22-17, 10:11 AM
ccrunner609 ccrunner609 is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 02-15-10
Posts: 2,665
ccrunner609 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
I'll be praying for a big long lightning delay.

We're an hour or more behind due to lightning. The other 3 regions run the 3200, and I can see their times via live results. The 3200 at my site is an hour away, so I can say "OK, maybe we don't have to throw caution to the wind to be in the top 4, but we can run a more calculated race for time and snag 1 of the 2 wildcard spots."
interesting position there.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 09-22-17, 11:26 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
Junior Varsity
 
Join Date: 10-06-16
Posts: 30
ENA2 is on a distinguished road
I could debate this issue all day.... and have in the past. Lets just say the adoption of the "Top 4 plus 2 more" proposal does not negatively effect anyone who benefits from the previous (current) format. Everyone knows that you need to be in the top four places at the Regional Meet(s).

Some individuals or relays will now get an "at large" invitation to the State meet and they are chosen by proving their fitness and effort at the regional meet just as the automatic qualifiers are...ie at the Regional Meet.

I would think that Mr. Slippery was playing devils advocate with his comment about waiting to see what other regionals do before your coach your kid.... The best coaches would still coach their kid to get in the top 4 for the sure spot and coaching a kid to get the top 5th place mark may be the definition of "over coaching" even if you knew all results of the other regionals.I would love my kids to compete agaist kids trying to get good marks for 5th or 6th place.

As for a 4th division, the OATCCC is working on that and this proposal/addition will not effect that as far as I know. They have a time schedule with 4 divisions in two days. DIV starts at 8:30 am and DI ends by 8:00 pm with about 40 minutes between each.

Finally, The vertical jumps appear to be the snag for the field events, but with the countback on misses/attempts at each height, ties would be very rare and could be solved at the regional level just as ties for 4th are presently. Now you must break ties for 4th. with the new proposal you may have to break a tie for 5th at the regional level too. If you look at the past 10 years' regional results that could have happened a couple times but probably would not have if you look at the misses at the tied heights. So, event at the HJ and PV you would only have a MAX of 20 athletes at the State meet and that would be if all regional 5th place athletes cleared the same height on the some attempt, had the same number of misses and passed the soem heights. The IS enough time in the State Meet Schedule for 20 athletes in the field events.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-22-17, 11:35 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
Junior Varsity
 
Join Date: 10-06-16
Posts: 30
ENA2 is on a distinguished road
I could debate this issue all day.... and have in the past. Lets just say the adoption of the "Top 4 plus 2 more" proposal does not negatively effect anyone who benefits from the previous (current) format. Everyone knows that you need to be in the top four places at the Regional Meet(s).

Some individuals or relays will now get an "at large" invitation to the State meet and they are chosen by proving their fitness and effort at the regional meet just as the automatic qualifiers are...ie at the Regional Meet.

I would think that Mr. Slippery was playing devils advocate with his comment about waiting to see what other regionals do before your coach your kid.... The best coaches would still coach their kid to get in the top 4 for the sure spot and coaching a kid to get the top 5th place mark may be the definition of "over coaching" even if you knew all results of the other regionals.I would love my kids to compete agaist kids trying to get good marks for 5th or 6th place.

As for a 4th division, the OATCCC is working on that and this proposal/addition will not effect that as far as I know. They have a time schedule with 4 divisions in two days. DIV starts at 8:30 am and DI ends by 8:00 pm with about 40 minutes between each.

Finally, The vertical jumps appear to be the snag for the field events, but with the countback on misses/attempts at each height, ties would be very rare and could be solved at the regional level just as ties for 4th are presently. Now you must break ties for 4th. with the new proposal you may have to break a tie for 5th at the regional level too. If you look at the past 10 years' regional results that could have happened a couple times but probably would not have if you look at the misses at the tied heights. So, event at the HJ and PV you would only have a MAX of 20 athletes at the State meet and that would be if all regional 5th place athletes cleared the same height on the some attempt, had the same number of misses and passed the soem heights. The IS enough time in the State Meet Schedule for 20 athletes in the field events.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-22-17, 07:34 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 05-03-10
Location: Somewhere in the ether
Posts: 1,988
JAVMAN83 is on a distinguished road
There are definitely some people going to be screwed, but that already exists with the current Ohio system. Kids in loaded districts and regionals are screwed already vis-a-vis other non-loaded districts and regionals.

I think the current system should be supplemented by a qualification system similar to Indiana's. Allow superior athletes/relay teams who were in a loaded area to qualify based on performance AT those qualifying meets.

This still would not account for athletes injured during the season that only heal in time for the regional or state meet, but were clearly superior in performance at some point in the season. I've seen my fair share of those over the decades.

As an FYI, the State meet USED TO allow the ENTIRE 1st and 2nd place teams at the then district meet (before the regionals came into effect) to compete at State. This took place at least during part of the 20's and 30's (20th century). I know of clear examples of athletes placing or winning at State without ever competing in the event at the district meet.
HOW ABOUT THAT!

Also...ADD THE TRIPLE JUMP!!!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-22-17, 09:56 PM
mathking mathking is offline
All American
 
Join Date: 07-25-10
Posts: 1,371
mathking is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
There are definitely some people going to be screwed, but that already exists with the current Ohio system. Kids in loaded districts and regionals are screwed already vis-a-vis other non-loaded districts and regionals.

I think the current system should be supplemented by a qualification system similar to Indiana's. Allow superior athletes/relay teams who were in a loaded area to qualify based on performance AT those qualifying meets.

This still would not account for athletes injured during the season that only heal in time for the regional or state meet, but were clearly superior in performance at some point in the season. I've seen my fair share of those over the decades.

As an FYI, the State meet USED TO allow the ENTIRE 1st and 2nd place teams at the then district meet (before the regionals came into effect) to compete at State. This took place at least during part of the 20's and 30's (20th century). I know of clear examples of athletes placing or winning at State without ever competing in the event at the district meet.
HOW ABOUT THAT!

Also...ADD THE TRIPLE JUMP!!!
I think this sums things up pretty well. There is no completely fair system. The current system at least puts control in each athletes own hands and feet, so to speak. Get top four at your district and you advance to the regional. Get top four at your regional and you advance to the state meet. Adding two more athletes does not prevent any athlete who would have made it out under the old system from getting out under this one.

Yes please, add the triple jump.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-22-17, 10:20 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
Varsity
 
Join Date: 08-17-14
Posts: 75
Eye89 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
time performances are the easy way out. Total crap if you have a tailwind in the 100 or you race the mile in a sit and kick race. Someone is getting screwed. What they need to do is take the next two in each event that was closest to the 4th place time. THe only fair way to do it.


Attitude of gratitude


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-22-17, 10:26 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
Varsity
 
Join Date: 08-17-14
Posts: 75
Eye89 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcatcher8 View Post



I prefer to have an attitude where I am thankful for things, rather than dwelling on the negative.

AMEN



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-23-17, 05:30 AM
gatornation gatornation is offline
All District
 
Join Date: 06-01-11
Location: The Swamp
Posts: 240
gatornation is on a distinguished road
Don't understand the statement that, someone is always going to get screwed. 2 more is 2 more than last year and that is great for the kids. I don't hear the USA saying every World games or Olympics, we get screwed because we are only allowed to send 3 athletes per event.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-23-17, 02:37 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-19-04
Posts: 2,967
said_aouita is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Slippery View Post
I'll be praying for a big long lightning delay.

We're an hour or more behind due to lightning. The other 3 regions run the 3200, and I can see their times via live results. The 3200 at my site is an hour away, so I can say "OK, maybe we don't have to throw caution to the wind to be in the top 4, but we can run a more calculated race for time and snag 1 of the 2 wildcard spots."
I've never met a coach who didn't care about team points.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-23-17, 02:39 PM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
All World
 
Join Date: 01-19-04
Posts: 2,967
said_aouita is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
time performances are the easy way out. Total crap if you have a tailwind in the 100 or you race the mile in a sit and kick race. Someone is getting screwed. What they need to do is take the next two in each event that was closest to the 4th place time. THe only fair way to do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eye89 View Post
Attitude of gratitude
CC609 supports drumpf, what do you expect?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-23-17, 07:15 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,391
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by said_aouita View Post
I've never met a coach who didn't care about team points.
You never met me.

Team points mean little to me at the regional meet if I know I don't have a team that can contend for one of the top places in the team competition. My goal is to qualify kids as far along the tournament trail as possible. Years from now, they're not likely to remember or care if we placed 9th or 11th as a team at the regional, but they'll remember that trip to state for a long time if we're able to make that happen.

I do my homework. I know if my team is a contender in the team competition at each level of the tournament. I generally know at each invite where the kids I coach are likely to place.


I'm not sure everyone understands what I was getting at in my previous post. My school competes in a traditionally difficult DIII region (especially for distance). There are some years when there is a rather clear-cut front 4 runners. For example, let's say it's going to take 11:20 to finish top 4 in the 3200. Been there, done that with the 2015 and 2016 regional meets. Let's say I've seen nothing from my entrant in either competition or a meet to indicate that the kid can run 11:20. If that kid tries to go with the leaders, the kid likely suffers a cosmic blowup and runs closer to 12:00. Under the former system, that's the only option for trying to get to state. Under this new system, there is another option; especially if my meet is behin due to weather, and I already know how the other 3 regions panned out. It's possible that the 5th place times at the other 3 regionals are 11:35 or slower. If my kid is capable of running that kind of a time, that might just be the strategy when it looks like the top 4 will be at 11:20 or better. If my kid and I believe he or she is capable of being in the top 4, we'll run accordingly and try to place in the top 4. It's a great feeling for the kid to cross that line knowing he or she has made it to state. It's better than swimming where 2/3 of the qualifiers have to huddle around a computer or smart phone waiting to see what all the district results looked like before they know for sure if they qualified.

I pulled up the DIII girls 3200 regional results from 2015 and 2016 to illustrate my point:

2015
Region 9 (My region) - 4th is 11:19, 5th is 11:21, 6th is 11:38, 7th was 11:40
Region 10 - 4th is 12:07, 5th is 12:24
Region 11 - 4th is 11:52, 5th is 12:03
Region 12 - 4th is 12:16, 5th is 12:21

I figured it would take 11:20, and I had kid capable of running that time, but what if I didn't? The opportunity would've been there to "time trial" and try to qualify that way.

2016
Region 9 (my region) - 4th place is 11:22, 5th is 11:44, 6th is 11:52.
Region 10 - 4th is 11:49, 5th is 12:02.
Region 11 - 4th is 11:56, 5th is 12:02
Region 12 - 4th is 11:23, 5th is 11:40, 6th is 11:42

Same situation. I figured it would take 11:20 to make it out of my region. Luckily, I had a kid capable of that performance. What if I didn't? Again, the opportunity was there to attempt a "time trial."

Is it a practical approach for shorter races? No, because the margins are so small that any holding back could cost a runner that amount of time that he or she needs to qualify at-large. In the girls 3200, however, big gaps develop rather frequently.

Last edited by Mr. Slippery; 09-24-17 at 12:59 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-23-17, 07:19 PM
Mr. Slippery's Avatar
Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
All Yappi
 
Join Date: 02-05-07
Location: Slippery Rock
Posts: 17,391
Mr. Slippery is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornation View Post
Don't understand the statement that, someone is always going to get screwed. 2 more is 2 more than last year and that is great for the kids. I don't hear the USA saying every World games or Olympics, we get screwed because we are only allowed to send 3 athletes per event.
Not understanding that comment either. The top 4 are still going like they did before, so just who is getting screwed here, '609?

Could it be that you're just mad you didn't get that 4th division that consists of your school and your school alone?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Heath D-2 District Rankings (Off Season #3) McClearn7 Wrestling 9 09-03-17 05:38 PM
Alliance D-2 District Rankings (Off-Season #3) McClearn7 Wrestling 8 08-24-17 01:54 PM
Waite D-3 District Rankings (Off-Season #1) McClearn7 Wrestling 15 07-22-17 10:47 AM
OHSAA 2017 Baseball State Tournament Preview Yappi Baseball 1 05-30-17 11:25 PM
Coshocton D-3 District Rankings (off season #1) McClearn7 Wrestling 3 05-30-17 07:19 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:45 AM.




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Registration Booster - Powered By Dirt RIF CustUmz