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  #1  
Old 10-09-17, 06:40 AM
Spartan1969 Spartan1969 is offline
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Legends??

Okay,
Surprised I am the first on here to ask this. Have some ideas myself on why it happened..why was Legends so slow???
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  #2  
Old 10-09-17, 07:10 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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For one, the air seemed to get warm and "thick". not sure what the humidity was, but several kids in the DII/III race dropped or had breathing issues. I'm sure it got warmer for the DI races.
Secondly, the field in the DII/III races were too big for the course. By that I mean, all but the top group had to put on the breaks going out of the gate and many had to walk around the turn coming out of the barn (which is too narrow to have 400 go through it in the first 250 meters.
For kids who are "pacers" there were many runners to catch, but not much room to pass. I had one kid who was in 120th place for the first 1000 who moved up to top 40,...like they were supposed to do, while most others just stayed where they were. Still, I thought it was a good meet and have not issue with the times or the "speed" of the course. Hopefully the kids had a good experience and learned some things to the meets that count.
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  #3  
Old 10-09-17, 08:43 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan1969 View Post
Okay,
Surprised I am the first on here to ask this. Have some ideas myself on why it happened..why was Legends so slow???
The day was just a bad day for running. I wasn't at Legends, but I was at Les Eisenhart, a normally fast race, but it just wasn't this year...a bit too hot after a cooler week, too humid, and a soft surface after a couple days of rain.
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  #4  
Old 10-09-17, 09:00 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveCrossCountry View Post
The day was just a bad day for running. I wasn't at Legends, but I was at Les Eisenhart, a normally fast race, but it just wasn't this year...a bit too hot after a cooler week, too humid, and a soft surface after a couple days of rain.
We ran at Eisenhart. It was really, really warm in the afternoon when the sun came out. Some of the races had more sun than others. It was 85-86 when most of my kids ran. As you said, the ground was really soft. Normally the ground is very firm.

The turns seemed flared out more than usual as well.

My kids were off a bunch vs what I expected and they had been running. Would say they were at least 45s slow, maybe slightly more. Looked over other races and would guess on average teams were 20-25s slow across the board, so even more so at TWHS. We still had a great time and raced well (which is all I care about).
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Old 10-09-17, 09:56 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by Running Man 101 View Post
We ran at Eisenhart. It was really, really warm in the afternoon when the sun came out. Some of the races had more sun than others. It was 85-86 when most of my kids ran. As you said, the ground was really soft. Normally the ground is very firm.

The turns seemed flared out more than usual as well.

My kids were off a bunch vs what I expected and they had been running. Would say they were at least 45s slow, maybe slightly more. Looked over other races and would guess on average teams were 20-25s slow across the board, so even more so at TWHS. We still had a great time and raced well (which is all I care about).
Yep, racing well is really all you can hope for on any course on any given day as they are all different. I agree with you about how slow the Eisenhart course was that day. Just the luck of the draw.
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  #6  
Old 10-09-17, 01:04 PM
gatornation gatornation is offline
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I would have to assume it is because the course is long. If fast times are only produced by courses being short, surely slow times have to be because the course is long.
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  #7  
Old 10-09-17, 01:49 PM
Eye89 Eye89 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveCrossCountry View Post
The day was just a bad day for running. I wasn't at Legends, but I was at Les Eisenhart, a normally fast race, but it just wasn't this year...a bit too hot after a cooler week, too humid, and a soft surface after a couple days of rain.


Agreed. Left Les Eisenhart after they eye test said our boys raced well, but times weren't what you'd expect. Did some nerd work, and pulled names of 35 kids who raced Les Eisenhart both last year and this year.

Tried to draw a representative sample using boys from top placing teams, mid placing teams, and lower placing teams. Used some boys from each DI, DII, and DIII teams. Chose boys from teams both close to the Columbus area and others that had to travel a distance for the race.

Findings? This sample of boys was had an average change in time from 2016 to 2017 that was 24 seconds slower.

Conclusion? Despite most boys being faster from year to year due natural growth and strength gains, with a given training plan, the heat, humidity, and softer surface slowed the race.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  #8  
Old 10-10-17, 02:26 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornation View Post
I would have to assume it is because the course is long. If fast times are only produced by courses being short, surely slow times have to be because the course is long.
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  #9  
Old 10-10-17, 04:15 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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So 15:35 for a boy and 17:50 for girls is slow now? No discussion of Rocky River vs NDCL? Not a single thread about teams. Just about times. The kid from Chardon has put together a real nice season. Amazing how even when Chardon's team is not all that strong, they still have a top individual. St. Iggy has a real nice team that is solid through 7.

Shaker Heights girls are much better than their rank seems to indicate. In a stronger team field, they could do much better.

Just sad that times is the takeaway from the results. Not good for the understanding of what the objective of the sport is. When I looked at the results over the weekend, I did not even look at times other than spreads.
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  #10  
Old 10-10-17, 06:16 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
So 15:35 for a boy and 17:50 for girls is slow now? No discussion of Rocky River vs NDCL? Not a single thread about teams. Just about times. The kid from Chardon has put together a real nice season. Amazing how even when Chardon's team is not all that strong, they still have a top individual. St. Iggy has a real nice team that is solid through 7.

Shaker Heights girls are much better than their rank seems to indicate. In a stronger team field, they could do much better.

Just sad that times is the takeaway from the results. Not good for the understanding of what the objective of the sport is. When I looked at the results over the weekend, I did not even look at times other than spreads.
Times enable a comparison from year to year performances. The kids know this so it should be addressed. It's good that you are clairvoyant enough that times don't matter to you at all, but they do to most coaches and certainly do to the kids.

Would you care to educate us on the objective of the sport? Not sure we understand.
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  #11  
Old 10-10-17, 07:29 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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The Darby course was also much slower than usual last weekend. Heat, humidity and the softer ground tended to make most courses slower last weekend than they normally are. Year to year comparisons make this very clear. (Or in the case of Darby successive weekends with races on the same course.) Times are important for knowing how your kids are racing relative to competitors. Times are obviously important to at least some of us because we are having a big discussion about them for a second week in a row.

I had several kids who very obviously ran better (based on how the compared to teammates and common opponents) this past Saturday at Eisenhart than they did the weekend before at MMOC even though their times were not as fast. We talked about it for an extra couple minutes yesterday at the start of practice. I made sure to compliment the kids who had particularly good races. Kids want to run fast times. It doesn't matter how much we tell them they don't matter than much. So we should try to make them realize when a particular time is a "good time" because it represents a good race given the conditions, the course and most importantly the field. This is particularly true for the kids whose scores don't count for the team. One thing I like to do if we run against a team that we competed against in the previous couple of meets is to look at how many athletes a kid beat (or lost to) this meet compared to the previous meet. When I tell a kid "There were seven girls from Upper Arlington you beat this week that beat you last week" she is much more likely to believe that she had a good race.

Finally, gatornation, well said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gatornation View Post
I would have to assume it is because the course is long. If fast times are only produced by courses being short, surely slow times have to be because the course is long.
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Old 10-10-17, 10:15 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Coincidentally, I just got an email from a former athlete telling me she is going to run the Columbus Marathon. I remember the joy on her face the first time she broke 30:00 for a 5K. So it is important to remember that some times matter to some kids, and they are not misguided in caring.
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  #13  
Old 10-10-17, 10:25 PM
billcarson billcarson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
So 15:35 for a boy and 17:50 for girls is slow now? No discussion of Rocky River vs NDCL? Not a single thread about teams. Just about times. The kid from Chardon has put together a real nice season. Amazing how even when Chardon's team is not all that strong, they still have a top individual. St. Iggy has a real nice team that is solid through 7.

Shaker Heights girls are much better than their rank seems to indicate. In a stronger team field, they could do much better.

Just sad that times is the takeaway from the results. Not good for the understanding of what the objective of the sport is. When I looked at the results over the weekend, I did not even look at times other than spreads.
We tried to get the Boy's D2 discussion going in the week 6 thread, but it died. I agree with you about times. No team racing, strategy or intrigue involved there. Here's my D2 Boy's take for you; NDCL won Tiffin and Boardman. Bay beat NDCL at Gilmour. Woodridge lost by a fair amount to Rocky River, who easily beat Bay and Ndcl. Woodridge does always improve during the tournament, but they have the huge gap you always site as dangerous between 2 and 3. So I'm left with Lexington as the only real challenge for River.
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  #14  
Old 10-11-17, 08:44 AM
Spartan1969 Spartan1969 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Running Man 101 View Post
Times enable a comparison from year to year performances. The kids know this so it should be addressed. It's good that you are clairvoyant enough that times don't matter to you at all, but they do to most coaches and certainly do to the kids.

Would you care to educate us on the objective of the sport? Not sure we understand.
Beautiful…i agree 100% with this. Not an argument, just trying to understand. My whole reason for this post was Legends claiming the course would be even faster than last year, and my kids times were off by a minute. Kids ran a good race for me, saw some strengths and weaknesses. I see people wheeling courses all the time, thought i might even get someone on here telling me it was long or something. The whole reason for this site is to get information we need to understand by using colleagues, and sometimes even kids. Huge discrepancy on last year to this year times for my team.
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  #15  
Old 10-11-17, 09:28 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan1969 View Post
Beautiful…i agree 100% with this. Not an argument, just trying to understand. My whole reason for this post was Legends claiming the course would be even faster than last year, and my kids times were off by a minute. Kids ran a good race for me, saw some strengths and weaknesses. I see people wheeling courses all the time, thought i might even get someone on here telling me it was long or something. The whole reason for this site is to get information we need to understand by using colleagues, and sometimes even kids. Huge discrepancy on last year to this year times for my team.
I think this weekend it is likely that all of the discrepancy was the weather. Darby and Eisenhart , two very fast courses in general, were much slower this weekend compared to last year, and in Darby's case to last week. It doesn't hurt to ask around. That's something we coaches should do.
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Old 10-11-17, 11:00 AM
Running Man 101 Running Man 101 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spartan1969 View Post
Beautiful…i agree 100% with this. Not an argument, just trying to understand. My whole reason for this post was Legends claiming the course would be even faster than last year, and my kids times were off by a minute. Kids ran a good race for me, saw some strengths and weaknesses. I see people wheeling courses all the time, thought i might even get someone on here telling me it was long or something. The whole reason for this site is to get information we need to understand by using colleagues, and sometimes even kids. Huge discrepancy on last year to this year times for my team.
The Eisenhart times really surprised me, because my kids looked fast and ran very well against some teams they had been running against in prior weeks. I was just surprised at the end when they told me their times. I had been telling them all season that Eisenhart is really fast and it was one of the slower events recently. I did tell them when they were warming up that the big field seemed spongy to me, which normally means slower times for most kids and then the sun popped out for the later races.

Oh well
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Old 10-11-17, 11:53 AM
LoveCrossCountry LoveCrossCountry is offline
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Originally Posted by Running Man 101 View Post
The Eisenhart times really surprised me, because my kids looked fast and ran very well against some teams they had been running against in prior weeks. I was just surprised at the end when they told me their times. I had been telling them all season that Eisenhart is really fast and it was one of the slower events recently. I did tell them when they were warming up that the big field seemed spongy to me, which normally means slower times for most kids and then the sun popped out for the later races.

Oh well
Yep. I think this goes to show that the Eisenhart course is legitimate. When there are fast times there, someone will say it is short, but it really sometimes has fast times due to weather and course conditions. It comes during a part of the year when the day can be really cool after it being warm. Then, if there hasn't been any rain for several days, it is hard and fast.
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