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  #1  
Old 09-30-14, 10:04 AM
nyshsfbfan nyshsfbfan is offline
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Vasj.

I remember back in my day ( 1960'S ) that St. Joe's was a football factory what happened to them ?
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  #2  
Old 09-30-14, 10:26 AM
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The heard moved east or left the area all together, enrollment is at a point where they are now Division VI. Euclid is basically in the same boat.
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  #3  
Old 09-30-14, 10:36 AM
nyshsfbfan nyshsfbfan is offline
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Wow we always looked fprward to playing them .
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  #4  
Old 09-30-14, 10:37 AM
MGL MGL is offline
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It's perhaps not the same school that you remember but enrollment is increasing rapidly and many positive changes have occurred in the last couple years

http://beltmag.com/colorblind-and-rising/
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  #5  
Old 09-30-14, 11:06 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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It's perhaps not the same school that you remember but enrollment is increasing rapidly and many positive changes have occurred in the last couple years

http://beltmag.com/colorblind-and-rising/
I wish VASJ well, but let's talk accurately about the enrollment increase. Several years ago, VASJ incorporated some needed financial and academic reforms. I'm convinced it saved the school from closing. The first phases of that were rocky. As a result, VASJ graduated a class in 2014 of 38 students. In September 2014, they enrolled a class of around 110-120, which is fairly consistent with what they were drawing before the reforms AND after. It's also true that the "after" students have a better academic profile and pay more in tuition. While it's correct to say that enrollment is way up (replacing a class of 38 with a class of 115)...well, if you take a little longer look...it's more like they are up a little bit and now appear to be a 450-500 student, co-ed school.

What happened over many decades is primarily demographic shifts...the area around VASJ is no longer middle class Catholic. The Catholics moved east and are serviced primarily by NDCL and Lake Catholic. VASJ is now working more diligently at getting their large alum base in Lake/Geauga Counties to consider the alma mater.

p.s.: In case someone says I can't say something nice about another high school...St. Ed's is the school that has experienced a true enrollment increase...up about 100-150 students in recent years. St. Joseph Academy as well.

Last edited by CatAlum; 09-30-14 at 11:16 AM.
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  #6  
Old 09-30-14, 11:37 AM
1984StateChamps 1984StateChamps is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
I wish VASJ well, but let's talk accurately about the enrollment increase. Several years ago, VASJ incorporated some needed financial and academic reforms. I'm convinced it saved the school from closing. The first phases of that were rocky. As a result, VASJ graduated a class in 2014 of 38 students. In September 2014, they enrolled a class of around 110-120, which is fairly consistent with what they were drawing before the reforms AND after. It's also true that the "after" students have a better academic profile and pay more in tuition. While it's correct to say that enrollment is way up (replacing a class of 38 with a class of 115)...well, if you take a little longer look...it's more like they are up a little bit and now appear to be a 450-500 student, co-ed school.

What happened over many decades is primarily demographic shifts...the area around VASJ is no longer middle class Catholic. The Catholics moved east and are serviced primarily by NDCL and Lake Catholic. VASJ is now working more diligently at getting their large alum base in Lake/Geauga Counties to consider the alma mater.

p.s.: In case someone says I can't say something nice about another high school...St. Ed's is the school that has experienced a true enrollment increase...up about 100-150 students in recent years. St. Joseph Academy as well.
I've always wondered how Benedictine remained all-boys and kept their enrollment reasonably high over the past 30+ years.

Could St. Joe's have done the same? Or are these two totally different situations? I'm lumping them together in my mind as once large and mighty east side all-boys schools (along with Cathedral Latin too).

Benedictine seems to have avoided the fate of St. Joe's and Cathedral Latin.

.
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  #7  
Old 09-30-14, 11:49 AM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by 1984StateChamps View Post
I've always wondered how Benedictine remained all-boys and kept their enrollment reasonably high over the past 30+ years.

Could St. Joe's have done the same? Or are these two totally different situations? I'm lumping them together in my mind as once large and mighty east side all-boys schools (along with Cathedral Latin too).

Benedictine seems to have avoided the fate of St. Joe's and Cathedral Latin.

.
Benedictine's stabilty (in an awful location, all things considered...economics, crime, Catholics nearby, highways) is due to it being run by a strong religious order. St. Joe's didn't have that.
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  #8  
Old 09-30-14, 12:26 PM
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Benedictine's stabilty (in an awful location, all things considered...economics, crime, Catholics nearby, highways) is due to it being run by a strong religious order. St. Joe's didn't have that.
Along with the order Benedictine is older, started in 1927, then the baby boomer catholic schools that opened in the late '40s so it had a more established alumni base so you have a longer lineage of customers. Regina & Chanel have closed then you have Padua, Walsh Jesuit, Notre Dame Academy and VASJ having to go coed to fill their buildings. The move to coed also alienates some of the alumni base too.
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  #9  
Old 09-30-14, 12:48 PM
Lakeshore5 Lakeshore5 is offline
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One interesting point about St. Joes is that the guys who went there in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (when the school was huge -1800+) never really had the opportunity to send their kids to the same school they attended, so to speak, (the merger occurred in 1990). I would assume it might of resurged enrollment in the 90s, but I'm not sure and it obviously merged for a number of reasons. With that being said, I'm an incredibly proud alum of VASJ.
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  #10  
Old 09-30-14, 01:57 PM
CatAlum CatAlum is offline
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Originally Posted by Lakeshore5 View Post
One interesting point about St. Joes is that the guys who went there in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (when the school was huge -1800+) never really had the opportunity to send their kids to the same school they attended, so to speak, (the merger occurred in 1990). I would assume it might of resurged enrollment in the 90s, but I'm not sure and it obviously merged for a number of reasons. With that being said, I'm an incredibly proud alum of VASJ.
I agree with this.

Since I come from that generation, I have to tell you that it makes no sense to me to spend private school money on a co-ed Catholic high school. I acknowledge that my opinion on this is not entirely rational, but it is how I feel. If I'm sending a child private, I want a single sex high school. Otherwise, I'd move to the best public school district I could afford and work on the faith components through other means. When I had a child at Ignatius, I certainly ran into a lot of dads at Ignatius activities who had graduated from St. Joe's in the 70's and early 80's.
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  #11  
Old 09-30-14, 04:37 PM
nyshsfbfan nyshsfbfan is offline
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Vasj

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Originally Posted by Auggie View Post
Along with the order Benedictine is older, started in 1927, then the baby boomer catholic schools that opened in the late '40s so it had a more established alumni base so you have a longer lineage of customers. Regina & Chanel have closed then you have Padua, Walsh Jesuit, Notre Dame Academy and VASJ having to go coed to fill their buildings. The move to coed also alienates some of the alumni base too.
Sad but true a lot of Catholic schools consolidated to survive , times are changing with the closing of grammer schools the feeder system is closing down along with the $$$$$$$$$$$ .
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  #12  
Old 09-30-14, 04:58 PM
EastYoungstown EastYoungstown is offline
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Sad but true a lot of Catholic schools consolidated to survive , times are changing with the closing of grammer schools the feeder system is closing down along with the $$$$$$$$$$$ .
It's going to be interesting to see where the system is at 20 years from now. Here in Youngstown there has been talk of consolidation for years.
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  #13  
Old 09-30-14, 08:54 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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I agree with this.

Since I come from that generation, I have to tell you that it makes no sense to me to spend private school money on a co-ed Catholic high school. I acknowledge that my opinion on this is not entirely rational, but it is how I feel. If I'm sending a child private, I want a single sex high school. Otherwise, I'd move to the best public school district I could afford and work on the faith components through other means. When I had a child at Ignatius, I certainly ran into a lot of dads at Ignatius activities who had graduated from St. Joe's in the 70's and early 80's.
I was thinking the same thing. I just don't see the point of spending money to send a child to a school like VASJ. Sorry, I'm not sorry for saying that. Academically, at least, you'd do just as well to use any number of a eastern suburban public school districts, plus the chances are good that most of these schools would offer more overall academic and extracurricular opportunities.
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  #14  
Old 09-30-14, 09:11 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
I agree with this.

Since I come from that generation, I have to tell you that it makes no sense to me to spend private school money on a co-ed Catholic high school. I acknowledge that my opinion on this is not entirely rational, but it is how I feel. If I'm sending a child private, I want a single sex high school. Otherwise, I'd move to the best public school district I could afford and work on the faith components through other means. When I had a child at Ignatius, I certainly ran into a lot of dads at Ignatius activities who had graduated from St. Joe's in the 70's and early 80's.
Yes, not entirely rational but I understand. More important to me is a Catholic and religious based education than single sex. My kids would have went to Catholic schools regardless of the quality of my public school system. I went to St Joe, an all boys school of 1200 boys at the time and enjoyed it and my sons and daughter went to coed VASJ with about 400 boys and girls and enjoyed it. Maybe it was being with just the guys for me or the small school enviornment for them. Apples and oranges but we all got a great education and experience and that's about all you can ask for.

I will say, with the exception of St Ignatius, every private school is smaller including St Eds.
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  #15  
Old 09-30-14, 09:17 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by nyshsfbfan View Post
I remember back in my day ( 1960'S ) that St. Joe's was a football factory what happened to them ?
Vikings still have a good football program for our size but we are now more of a basketball factory. 2013 DIV State Champs and 2014 DIII State Runner Ups. Baring injury or a meltdown, we expect to be in the state Final 4 in 2015. Basketball is easier to win with in a small school because all you need is 3 studs and nice role players and you can contend. In football, if you don't have 7 or 8, 230 lb linemen, you are 5 and 5.
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  #16  
Old 09-30-14, 09:34 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Lakeshore5 View Post
One interesting point about St. Joes is that the guys who went there in the 60s, 70s, and 80s (when the school was huge -1800+) never really had the opportunity to send their kids to the same school they attended, so to speak, (the merger occurred in 1990). I would assume it might of resurged enrollment in the 90s, but I'm not sure and it obviously merged for a number of reasons. With that being said, I'm an incredibly proud alum of VASJ.
Like all generations who have become more financially successful than their parents, we have alums that want more for their kids than what they had growing up. VASJ is middle class and blue collar, always has been. We have many alums who make a lot of money and they want what they preceive as the "best" that they can possibly afford. While they "like" VASJ, they think their family deserves better than VASJ. What they fail to realize is that one of the reasons they were successful was because of middle class St Joe/VA/VASJ. I for one owe much of my success in life, financially, spiritually, and emotionally to my school. And while my wife and i could have afforded to send our kids elsewhere, VASJ is the only place for us and I am proud to be an alum and that my kids are.
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  #17  
Old 09-30-14, 09:49 PM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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I was thinking the same thing. I just don't see the point of spending money to send a child to a school like VASJ. Sorry, I'm not sorry for saying that. Academically, at least, you'd do just as well to use any number of a eastern suburban public school districts, plus the chances are good that most of these schools would offer more overall academic and extracurricular opportunities.
I disagree about single sex for reasons stated to Catalum. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
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  #18  
Old 10-01-14, 08:40 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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The heard moved east or left the area all together, enrollment is at a point where they are now Division VI. Euclid is basically in the same boat.
Vikings are projected to be back to DV in football next year.

Football participation, in general, is down everywhere. CYO teams are lucky to have 15 to 18 kids, even with merged parochial teams and large elementary schools. All of this concussion hysteria and video game culture has kids playing other sports or sitting on the couch.
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Old 10-01-14, 09:26 AM
Viking/Falcon Viking/Falcon is offline
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St. Joes was a division I football power until the late 1980's. If you ask any of the old timers the original Holy War was St. Joes vs St. Edward. I was fortunate enough to play on the 1985 stat semi-final team that went 9-4. We beat St. Eds twice that year along with beating St. Ignatius. We also played Canton McKinley twice. We had numerous players from that team go DI to such places as Wake Forest, Syracuse, (2) Bowling Green, (2) Ohio University, Northwestern. That is just one example of the type of teams the Viking Village used to produce on the gridiron. I believe they won the state championship in 1989, their first year being in Division II.
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Old 10-01-14, 12:26 PM
1984StateChamps 1984StateChamps is offline
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Originally Posted by MugnMaul78 View Post
Vikings are projected to be back to DV in football next year.

Football participation, in general, is down everywhere. CYO teams are lucky to have 15 to 18 kids, even with merged parochial teams and large elementary schools. All of this concussion hysteria and video game culture has kids playing other sports or sitting on the couch.
VASJ would actually have a much easier time making the playoffs this year if they were in Division 5. The NE Ohio region in Division 5 (Region 15) is going to end up with a bunch of 6-4 or 5-5 teams qualifying with Harbin's in the 13.5-14.9 range (at least for the 5-8 seeds in that region).

To make the postseason in Region 19 in D-6, it might take 8 wins and upwards of 19 Harbin points to get in.

.
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Old 10-01-14, 12:52 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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VASJ would actually have a much easier time making the playoffs this year if they were in Division 5. The NE Ohio region in Division 5 (Region 15) is going to end up with a bunch of 6-4 or 5-5 teams qualifying with Harbin's in the 13.5-14.9 range (at least for the 5-8 seeds in that region).

To make the postseason in Region 19 in D-6, it might take 8 wins and upwards of 19 Harbin points to get in.

.
So they get the increased enrollment AND an easier path to the playoffs . . . they win twice on that one.
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  #22  
Old 10-01-14, 12:54 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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I agree with this.

Since I come from that generation, I have to tell you that it makes no sense to me to spend private school money on a co-ed Catholic high school. I acknowledge that my opinion on this is not entirely rational, but it is how I feel. If I'm sending a child private, I want a single sex high school. Otherwise, I'd move to the best public school district I could afford and work on the faith components through other means. When I had a child at Ignatius, I certainly ran into a lot of dads at Ignatius activities who had graduated from St. Joe's in the 70's and early 80's.
Do you apply the same logic to elementary schools as well? While I understand that there are very few single sex Catholic elementary schools, would it be your thought that you should enroll in the best public school system possible for K-8 and then move to the single sex high school for 9-12?
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Old 10-01-14, 12:57 PM
Stark Born & Bred Stark Born & Bred is offline
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Let me ask a question of the Cleveland folks . . . is there room for both CCC and VASJ in Cleveland? By that I mean, is it a situation where one will ultimately succeed and the other will ultimately close due to occupying the same market/target audience (that appears to be shrinking) or could both stabilize or thrive (depending on what definition you want to give to those works for this purpose)? Perhaps they are very different schools with very different markets and this question is off-base, but, from where I sit, they seem similar enough to make a direct comparison.
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Old 10-01-14, 12:59 PM
MitchVigil MitchVigil is offline
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Originally Posted by Viking/Falcon View Post
St. Joes was a division I football power until the late 1980's. If you ask any of the old timers the original Holy War was St. Joes vs St. Edward. I was fortunate enough to play on the 1985 stat semi-final team that went 9-4. We beat St. Eds twice that year along with beating St. Ignatius. We also played Canton McKinley twice. We had numerous players from that team go DI to such places as Wake Forest, Syracuse, (2) Bowling Green, (2) Ohio University, Northwestern. That is just one example of the type of teams the Viking Village used to produce on the gridiron. I believe they won the state championship in 1989, their first year being in Division II.
As a 1986 St. Edward alum, I can confirm that St. Joe's was the biggest hurdle on our schedule back then.
I believe the Vikings beat the Eagles twice in 1985, Ed's only losses of the season.

However, the Ignatius game has always been the "Holy War".

I'm glad to see that things are trending up for VASJ...I hope all our remaining Catholic schools can thrive in the long run.
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Old 10-01-14, 01:03 PM
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Let me ask a question of the Cleveland folks . . . is there room for both CCC and VASJ in Cleveland? By that I mean, is it a situation where one will ultimately succeed and the other will ultimately close due to occupying the same market/target audience (that appears to be shrinking) or could both stabilize or thrive (depending on what definition you want to give to those works for this purpose)? Perhaps they are very different schools with very different markets and this question is off-base, but, from where I sit, they seem similar enough to make a direct comparison.
Well, there are more than two schools occupying that "niche". St. Martin de Porres would certainly be a competitor for a mainstream Catholic education (with the work/school component added). Benedictine as well.

They're aren't all the same. Central Catholic...basically inner city all the way; ditto Martin de Porres. VASJ, not by design (despite what they are currently saying) is a school serving the white Catholic middle class and inner city minorities. Benny as well. They're all doing reasonably well.

All of this is heavily supported by the voucher. Take that away and my guess is that 60-70% of the students in these four schools would disappear. Ignatius has a lot as well (much smaller on a percentage basis, but still probably 100-150).
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Old 10-01-14, 01:03 PM
Lakeshore5 Lakeshore5 is offline
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Originally Posted by Stark Born & Bred View Post
Let me ask a question of the Cleveland folks . . . is there room for both CCC and VASJ in Cleveland? By that I mean, is it a situation where one will ultimately succeed and the other will ultimately close due to occupying the same market/target audience (that appears to be shrinking) or could both stabilize or thrive (depending on what definition you want to give to those works for this purpose)? Perhaps they are very different schools with very different markets and this question is off-base, but, from where I sit, they seem similar enough to make a direct comparison.
I would say they could both survive because they are rather far apart and aren't all that similar. What I'm saying is that not many kids are deciding between VASJ and CCC.
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Old 10-01-14, 08:05 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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I disagree about single sex for reasons stated to Catalum. You know what they say about people in glass houses.
Truthfully, I'd have a hard time justifying sending my (hypothetical) kids to just about any private school for how much tuition goes for these days. But I certainly believe that there are quite a few equal or better coed options than VASJ. I guess that having choices is always a good thing, but it becomes hard for me and probably a lot of families to tell the difference between schools like VASJ, CCC, Chanel (oops!), etc. or Lake Catholic, NDCL, etc.
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Old 10-01-14, 08:08 PM
Bennies'01 Bennies'01 is offline
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Well, there are more than two schools occupying that "niche". St. Martin de Porres would certainly be a competitor for a mainstream Catholic education (with the work/school component added). Benedictine as well.

They're aren't all the same. Central Catholic...basically inner city all the way; ditto Martin de Porres. VASJ, not by design (despite what they are currently saying) is a school serving the white Catholic middle class and inner city minorities. Benny as well. They're all doing reasonably well.

All of this is heavily supported by the voucher. Take that away and my guess is that 60-70% of the students in these four schools would disappear. Ignatius has a lot as well (much smaller on a percentage basis, but still probably 100-150).
I'd be shocked if 60-70% of Benedictine students receive vouchers. I know that that's not what you said, but it seems to be implied. There is a decent chunk of Benny students using vouchers, but almost certainly not as many per capita as in the other four schools.
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Old 10-02-14, 08:01 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bennies'01 View Post
Truthfully, I'd have a hard time justifying sending my (hypothetical) kids to just about any private school for how much tuition goes for these days. But I certainly believe that there are quite a few equal or better coed options than VASJ. I guess that having choices is always a good thing, but it becomes hard for me and probably a lot of families to tell the difference between schools like VASJ, CCC, Chanel (oops!), etc. or Lake Catholic, NDCL, etc.
The fact that you don't have kids shows your immaturity and ignorance of this topic. I can rattle off a dozen tangible reasons why I would pick VASJ over Benny and those other coed schools for that matter but I have hold back out of respect for Auggie who is a class guy and I respect Benny's tradition. Beyond that though, you don't have a clue. When you grow up, you will know better.
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  #30  
Old 10-02-14, 08:30 AM
MugnMaul78 MugnMaul78 is offline
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Originally Posted by CatAlum View Post
Well, there are more than two schools occupying that "niche". St. Martin de Porres would certainly be a competitor for a mainstream Catholic education (with the work/school component added). Benedictine as well.

They're aren't all the same. Central Catholic...basically inner city all the way; ditto Martin de Porres. VASJ, not by design (despite what they are currently saying) is a school serving the white Catholic middle class and inner city minorities. Benny as well. They're all doing reasonably well.

All of this is heavily supported by the voucher. Take that away and my guess is that 60-70% of the students in these four schools would disappear. Ignatius has a lot as well (much smaller on a percentage basis, but still probably 100-150).
Yes, they all have different students and business models. CCC owes a huge part of it's growth to the voucher going from almost 300 kids 6 or 7 years ago to over 500 today. The school serves an important educational and religious need in a city with such a terrible public school system. At VASJ, beyond the students that have vouchers, based on conversations with parents and VASJ's Admissions team, if I had to rank difficulty of admissions acceptance of downtown and east side schools, it would go in order of St Ignatius/Beaumont, NDCL, VASJ, and then the others. VASJ rejected 15 kids from St Jeromes and over 30 kids that lived in the city of Euclid. The majority of the students that VASJ rejected went to the other east side Catholic schools who have different admissions policies than VASJ.

If the never will happen situation situation of Voucher programs ending did happen, yes VASJ would lose many students but we would survive. It would hurt in the short term but with our location and alumni base might actually embrace the school even more long term.

It is important to note that Voucher does not mean imply race because VASJ and other schools have both races of students on vouchers. In regards to the number of vouchers at St Ignatius, the number I heard from school administrators is 220, which is still a low percentage relative to the 1500 boys in the school.
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