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  #1  
Old 02-26-19, 05:18 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Finishtiming

Does anyone else miss finishtiming?

I go to these indoor meets every weekend and expect results to be prompt and professional. But they very seldom are even close.

But outdoors we have finishtiming for almost every meet.

If you have ever been to a meet with finishtiming-- and without-- there is a big difference.

I can't wait for the indoor state meet. But then again, without finishtiming it will be second rate.
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  #2  
Old 02-26-19, 05:24 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Does anyone else miss finishtiming?

I go to these indoor meets every weekend and expect results to be prompt and professional. But they very seldom are even close.

But outdoors we have finishtiming for almost every meet.

If you have ever been to a meet with finishtiming-- and without-- there is a big difference.

I can't wait for the indoor state meet. But then again, without finishtiming it will be second rate.
Go to an indoor meet at Akron, then. They hire Mike and his crew and I agree with you: there isn't anyone better in Ohio. Their combination of efficiency and user-friendly live results blows everyone else away.
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  #3  
Old 02-27-19, 07:20 AM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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case and point

Exactly - Finish timing is the stuff. No one else is close.

This weekend - STATE indoor, waiting to see who is in??! As of Monday at 4 or 5pm you thought your athlete was 24th or 23rd. Hey! You are good, congrats! Book a hotel... then... oh no, forgot to add a few meets, you are now 27th, sorry, you are out.
This did not happen in the Mike Chatfield era. We have been to a few no Finishtiming meets, almost always bad. Wrong results, no changes, no heat sheets in advance etc.

We try to only go to Finish Timing meets whenever possible. We have been to a few meets without a clock! Even the D2/D3 district track meet did not have a clock!! Going to an XC meet or Track meet without a clock is like watching basketball without a score. Football without yardage markers. Get real.

We c
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  #4  
Old 02-27-19, 08:26 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCFan98 View Post
Exactly - Finish timing is the stuff. No one else is close.

This weekend - STATE indoor, waiting to see who is in??! As of Monday at 4 or 5pm you thought your athlete was 24th or 23rd. Hey! You are good, congrats! Book a hotel... then... oh no, forgot to add a few meets, you are now 27th, sorry, you are out.
This did not happen in the Mike Chatfield era. We have been to a few no Finishtiming meets, almost always bad. Wrong results, no changes, no heat sheets in advance etc.

We try to only go to Finish Timing meets whenever possible. We have been to a few meets without a clock! Even the D2/D3 district track meet did not have a clock!! Going to an XC meet or Track meet without a clock is like watching basketball without a score. Football without yardage markers. Get real.

We c
You'd better avoid some indoor collegiate meets, then. I'm not going to name names, but I am calling out more than one facility in Ohio that have been in existence for almost two decades, yet still have NO meet clock, or ANY clock for that matter, on any of their walls, let alone finish line clocks. Don't even get me started on the lack of ANY field event indicators! I've seen parents & friends of collegiate athletes wondering just what in the world was going on! The sport KILLS itself through its own ineptitude of not displaying how any competition is going.
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  #5  
Old 02-27-19, 09:53 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XCFan98 View Post
Exactly - Finish timing is the stuff. No one else is close.

This weekend - STATE indoor, waiting to see who is in??! As of Monday at 4 or 5pm you thought your athlete was 24th or 23rd. Hey! You are good, congrats! Book a hotel... then... oh no, forgot to add a few meets, you are now 27th, sorry, you are out.
This did not happen in the Mike Chatfield era. We have been to a few no Finishtiming meets, almost always bad. Wrong results, no changes, no heat sheets in advance etc.

We try to only go to Finish Timing meets whenever possible. We have been to a few meets without a clock! Even the D2/D3 district track meet did not have a clock!! Going to an XC meet or Track meet without a clock is like watching basketball without a score. Football without yardage markers. Get real.

We c
FinishTiming is great. They do a consistently good job. And it is irritating when the timing job is not done well. But maybe try to avoid remarks like "No one else is close." TimingFirst, for example, has done a ton of meets for us. Jon does a fantastic job (and uses Athletic.net for meet entries, which is a godsend for coaches of large teams in dual meets). I have also been to many well run meets timed by OnTheMark timing.
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  #6  
Old 02-27-19, 10:33 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
FinishTiming is great. They do a consistently good job. And it is irritating when the timing job is not done well. But maybe try to avoid remarks like "No one else is close." TimingFirst, for example, has done a ton of meets for us. Jon does a fantastic job (and uses Athletic.net for meet entries, which is a godsend for coaches of large teams in dual meets). I have also been to many well run meets timed by OnTheMark timing.
Why try to avoid those remarks if it's your true belief?

I think DeltaTiming, TimingFirst, and others provide a pretty good service. They provide a service that many can't provide themselves...however, I still think FinishTiming is head and shoulders above the rest at this point.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-19, 11:21 AM
Altor Altor is offline
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Originally Posted by mathking View Post
I have also been to many well run meets timed by OnTheMark timing.
I've worked with Steve many times and I too like the way he does things.

Something to keep in mind...this is not a cheap business to get started up in, especially if you are only timing a handful of meets a year. A FinishLynx system is going to be around $10K for a pretty basic setup. Add $2K for an Identilynx camera, probably another $2K for radiolynx start sensor and autocapture. Clocks/scoreboards are $1K-8K. Oh yeah...another $700 for the network COM port to connect Lynx to the scoreboard. And the Hy-tek license for a timing company is $1000/year. And I don't even know how much a chip timing setup for cross country is.

Some of the things Mike is capable of doing is because he has been doing this a long time and he has reinvested the money he has made back into the business. I'm sure OnTheMarkTiming and TimingFirst operate the same way. They'll add the features you appreciate as they can.

Now, I will say, having no clock/scoreboard at a college/university does irritate me. There is no way a school builds a football field or basketball floor without a visible scoreboard. So, why is it okay to build a track without one? Annoying.
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  #8  
Old 02-27-19, 11:54 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Originally Posted by Altor View Post
...
Some of the things Mike is capable of doing is because he has been doing this a long time and he has reinvested the money he has made back into the business.
...
Agreed.

No reason the other companies couldn't potentially reach the level at which Mike operates, it just hasn't happened yet.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-19, 01:43 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Originally Posted by SOTT View Post
Why try to avoid those remarks if it's your true belief?

I think DeltaTiming, TimingFirst, and others provide a pretty good service. They provide a service that many can't provide themselves...however, I still think FinishTiming is head and shoulders above the rest at this point.
Why? Because it is kind of insulting and in a business where you might someday be scrambling to secure a timing company you might not want to insult them. Saying no one is better isn't insulting anyone else. Saying they are the best isn't insulting anyone else. Saying no one else is close is insulting. It is just my opinion that you might not want to make statements like that because they could be seen as unprofessional.

I also don't think that on any dimension except for scale (having more crews and equipment) is FinishTiming providing a better service than TimingFirst. We have had both companies time for us, so I am speaking from the running the meet side as well as the dealing with all the administrative stuff. They both provided us with excellent service.
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  #10  
Old 02-27-19, 03:57 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Why? Because it is kind of insulting and in a business where you might someday be scrambling to secure a timing company you might not want to insult them. Saying no one is better isn't insulting anyone else. Saying they are the best isn't insulting anyone else. Saying no one else is close is insulting. It is just my opinion that you might not want to make statements like that because they could be seen as unprofessional.

I also don't think that on any dimension except for scale (having more crews and equipment) is FinishTiming providing a better service than TimingFirst. We have had both companies time for us, so I am speaking from the running the meet side as well as the dealing with all the administrative stuff. They both provided us with excellent service.
I think we could quibble about this ad-infinitum. Probably best just to agree to disagree on many of your points, therefore.
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  #11  
Old 02-27-19, 07:09 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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That’s perfectly fine. Wouldn’t be the first time people have disagreed with my opinions.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-19, 08:19 PM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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That’s perfectly fine. Wouldn’t be the first time people have disagreed with my opinions.
Ha, nor mine!

Cheers
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  #13  
Old 02-27-19, 09:55 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Ha, nor mine!

Cheers
Cheers to you as well.
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  #14  
Old 02-27-19, 09:59 PM
XCFan98 XCFan98 is offline
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Ok...ok..

Ok. A few others are good. I like Finish Timing best. Nice big clocks...live scoring. Easy to make changes. Easy to work with. Clean website.
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  #15  
Old 02-28-19, 10:43 AM
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Mr. Slippery Mr. Slippery is offline
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Any timing company that shows up, reports results for every athlete, posts results at the meet site, and prevents me from having to follow all of my school's athletes in order to have accurate results for each of them is fine by me. It only gets better from there with the additional features that various companies can provide.

With regard to the original topic, Finishtiming doesn't have to take a back seat to anyone. Other timing companies I've encountered at meets are quite good and some not as good. I've also experienced individuals running their schools' FAT systems that are also very good but don't have the equipment to offer all the features that the high-end professional timing companies can.
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  #16  
Old 02-28-19, 07:41 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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A lot has to do with what the host school/organization wants. I do stuff for Delta and the format we use is based off of what the big players want. You can't believe what we do with TV and video boards. When it comes to a HS meet at say Kent State, they use college students for some of the tasks so they can save $ and help make more $ for their program.

I do not like Finishtimings formatting for results. I'm not much more happy with Delta's, but it's not been developed for me, it's been developed for colleges that pay the bill and want things a particular way. LSU and Nebraska sort of drive the train. We also do national championships and international meets. It's big time.

I absolutely love Flashresults. https://flashresults.com/results.htm
I think their stuff is perfect.

Finishtiming is very good. DeltaTiming is very good. There are a lot of very good and there are outdoor HS meets we go to where the host school does it themselves and they are also very good.

I would not criticize anyone until I know exactly what they are contracted to do and what they are given to do it. I was involved with a disaster once that was 100% on the host and not us. A few weeks later we did D1 national championships and was told we did the best job the host school had ever had done. Nothing changed on our end. Relationships are a big factor.
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Old 03-02-19, 07:37 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Best indoor meet I was at all season was at Cloverleaf High School. Weeknight Meet. Handful of teams and a few individuals. Coaches that enjoy each other. HAND TIMED by each coach for their own kids. Not highly competitive in some things. Very highly competitive in others. A lot of kids participating and not a single gripe by anyone. Great learning experience for kids that do not normally get to compete. Did not need the bells and whistles of FAT and live results. We our regular season, we have 3 double dual and one dual meet that are equally pleasurable without all the technology.

We have had discussions as a staff about which meets we attend. Way down the list is FAT timing and results. Does the meet have pole vault. Will the competition level benefit our kids . Facilities. Officials/volunteers. Hospitality for coaches and/or concessions. Travel. etc....etc...etc... Results/timing. Now, at the League meet, District, Regional and State. That becomes more important.
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Old 03-02-19, 11:03 AM
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Lancermania Lancermania is offline
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Psycho_dad is an old school guy who believes in the KISS method of doing things (Keep It Simple Stupid)
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Old 03-02-19, 11:31 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Psycho_dad is an old school guy who believes in the KISS method of doing things (Keep It Simple Stupid)
Lancermania, that's all well & good for a simple dual or triangular. Once you get into large invites, hand timing is a disaster. I know having been part of that generation, like you.

I know of a certain very successive, long-time coach in eastern Hamilton county that, according to very good sources, looked upon the change from yards to meters in 1980 as a Communist plot. PsychoDad may be of that same mindset.
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Old 03-04-19, 04:32 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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appropriate technology for the meet. Don't need all the bells and whistles for an average Saturday invite. FAT and results printed and posted on a wall. Scores announced over the PA. Simple Dual can be hand timed just fine and score kept by hand with individual results distributed the next morning. I see a lot of coaches and athletes so wrapped up in looking at results that they aren't engaged in the meet.
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Old 03-04-19, 05:24 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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I always kept my own notes of MY athletes. I recorded ALL marks for historical purposes as I produced a detailed write-up of each meet for team/parent-wide distribution. Everything was recorded, but in my own chicken-scratch notepad which I immediately transferred to computer after I got home from the meet. That's when I went back and looked at other results.
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Old 03-04-19, 10:45 AM
SOTT SOTT is offline
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Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
appropriate technology for the meet. Don't need all the bells and whistles for an average Saturday invite. FAT and results printed and posted on a wall. Scores announced over the PA. Simple Dual can be hand timed just fine and score kept by hand with individual results distributed the next morning. I see a lot of coaches and athletes so wrapped up in looking at results that they aren't engaged in the meet.
It's not as cut and dry as that, unfortunately.

We have had plenty of instances where our parent volunteer timers, no matter how much we attempt to educate them on proper timing technique, picking places, etc, have messed something up. When your dual meets count for a particular percentage of your conference championship and you use scoring at a dual meet as part of your lettering system, those incorrect places and times can have a markedly ill-effect.

I do agree that the competition portion of the competition should be stressed over the time aspect, but nonetheless, there are issues that aren't as superficial as they sound.
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Old 03-04-19, 09:44 PM
madman madman is offline
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Officials at every level in every sport make errors. Ask the New Orleans Saints. Sometimes they are errors of commissions and sometimes errors of omissions.

I am ashamed to say that I have been known to lose it when my own parent volunteers have repeatedly timed the wrong person or missed a time because they were caught up in a fierce battle for the win. Looking in the rear view mirror, I feel confident that no material harm ever came to any athlete/team as a result of such errors. Losing my cool didn't benefit anyone.

This is a human endeavor. As long as people are involved there will be errors. No matter who is timing, there are going to be errors.

Technology has it's drawbacks, too. There are ghosts in every machine. It drives me nuts when a sprint race is called back because a sensor didn't pick up the start properly. That can change the outcome of that race and competitions later in the meet.

The money spent on FAT timing dual meets might be better spent on additional/better training equipment.

I'm with Psycho Dad on this stuff. Technology has it's place, but I think too many hold it higher than it should be.

I won't argue against Finishtiming. I agree they do a great job. I also agree that there are many timing groups that do far more than just a good job.

We have refused to return to meets with certain timing companies who are clearly imcompetent to the point of making up results to resolve ties (HJ marks of 6-0, 6-0.25, 6-0.5, etc.) The unfortunate thing is that teams return to these meets which only serves to perpetuate the problem.

The problem is that there isn't enough competition for timing groups and even the incompetent ones time meets every weekend.
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Old 03-05-19, 08:17 AM
mathking mathking is offline
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I agree that there some timing companies that aren't very good. We have switched meets before because of poor timing. I also agree that you can run a good dual or triangular meet without FAT, but I also think FAT has made our dual/tri meets better. First and foremost because at a FAT timed dual meet I actually can coach a little bit, rather than spending all of my time taking and writing down times. It is all well and good to say "track is about the competition and not the times" but there are kids who are motivated by times and improvement. The 41st and 42nd 1600 runners in a dual meet are not likely to get excited by the fact that they finished ahead of #43, but they may well be excited if they run a PR. And when you have 22 heats of the 100 and 18 heats of 200 a timing company can make the meet go a lot faster. Spectators really like seeing the times on the board and being able to look them up online in real time. The volunteers who used to run watches are then free to help in other areas. So I think the money we spend on timing our dual meets is very well spent.
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Old 03-05-19, 09:43 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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How much does using a timing company cost for a Dual or Tri-Meet?
What a about a 15-team Invitational?

IMO and I think we all agree here, what works for one program, may not be best for another. It is evident that Woodridge does well without using FAT. I have been to duals or tri-meets at their place and it works well. There were some errors in picking places or marking Field events, but as a visiting coach, they did a GREAT JOB!. FAT would not have "enhanced" the meet for our athletes or our program. I try to run our Home Dual/Tri-meets as well as Woodridge does. Keep in mind, we often go to weekday meets where, as we get off the bus, are asked "What field event can you run and we need you to have 2 coaches to help us time/pick" or worse.

For our Invitationals, we have a lynx system, so it is FAT. I would love to not be at the camera and am training people to use the Lynx, but We have a budget of $500 for officials. PERIOD.
If we have 2 OHSAA officials that leaves about $250 for a Hy-tech operator and a Lynx person. So Budget is the biggest concern

I may start a new Post about how different programs budget their Home Track Meets. For us, All Gate Reciepts, Entry Fees and Concessions go to the school or Booster Club general athletic funds. Our Program only gets T-shirt sales profits, which is only $2 per shirt sold.
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Old 03-05-19, 01:06 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Budget is obviously a big factor. $250-350 has been the norm so far. Our track boosters work the gate and concessions for home meets, and they get the money. They pay for the timing for the dual meets. The school pays for timing our invitational. Since we have the money, we are getting good value from having the meets timed, without having to make tradeoffs. My son's school has nowhere near the budget we do, nor the team size, so they make different choices.
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