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  #451  
Old 10-17-18, 04:04 PM
College#19 College#19 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
And this was extremely evident when the leagues merged. It has always been looked at as the "westside" league that "let in" the eastside teams.
True, but the league split back then because CYO did a horrific job in running the league. CYO eventually lost the remaining sports to newly formed GCCYS. The situation as it stands today seems a bit toxic. The folks running the GCYL do a great job, but there is too much favoritism to the west side programs. As I said before because of mergers there are now more programs on the North and East sides. The West is now the minority.
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  #452  
Old 10-17-18, 04:09 PM
College#19 College#19 is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
College#19, basketball and football are run by two entirely different organizations. There isn't a GCYL basketball league. There's the WBC and the GCCYS. That's why there are different rules.
The circles for the GCYL and WBC are almost the exact same.

GCCYS has a lot of momentum. The League continues to add programs and I now understand a couple of the Dayton programs are joining the league. I would not be surprised to see the GCCYS running a lot of the sports in the future. It isn't a perfect league, but as they continue to add programs they are going to have a lot of leverage.

There really should not be different eligibility rules for the sports. I can see weight being a factor for football, but it is idiotic to have different eligibility rules outside of weight. OHSAA rules are the exact same for all sports in grade 7-8, why do the Catholic leagues need to be different?
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  #453  
Old 10-17-18, 04:20 PM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
1. but they definitely should be involved in their own program. And you are living under a rock if you think Elder coaches don't have any influence on who is on those teams. Last year they took like 8 or 9 kids from the 8th grade. Basically the 9 they know they want to focus on. And really, the focus is probably really on 3-4 of them. It's not enough.

3. You skipped over point 3. You gave perfect examples of how X and LaSalle changed their strategy to attract more kids. Elder people act like that type of change in strategy is "beneath them". Why?
#1. They are involved in their own program (Elder). They are not involved in running the feeder school teams. If they were, you would be complaining even louder about the "chosen". If they coached one team, you'd complain about who wasn't on it (like you just did). If they coached two teams, you would complain that "the 6th graders got the best coach b/c they are the chosen and have the inside track to playing time at Elder". Lose/lose situation.

So if I'm living under a rock and Elder coaches already have the influence, then I guess it doesn't matter?

#3. I didnt skip anything. Elder has a placement test (not an entrance test like X). X didnt try to attract more kids, just more minorities. Elder will let almost ANYONE into the school. X acts like you must meet certain testing standards. Elder doesnt need to make testing exceptions. If you want to go to school there, they'd like to have you. It's apples and oranges. Regarding LaSalle, rumor has it they let athletes come to school at a significantly discounted fee. Are you saying Elder should do this? You already complain about favortism now, can you imagine if you find out a athlete from Visi is getting money off his tuition from Elder??? In a related note, LaSalle also had to fire a significant number of faculty. I don't think Elder wants to be in that financial position. LaSalle has also recently burned through two football coaches, a basketball coach, an AD, and maybe a volleyball and baseball coach. Doesn't appear to be a culture I want at Elder.

Last edited by PURPLE REIGN; 10-17-18 at 04:38 PM.
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  #454  
Old 10-17-18, 04:33 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Originally Posted by College#19 View Post
The circles for the GCYL and WBC are almost the exact same.
And? How does that change what I said?
In football there's the GCYL which governs all programs.
In basketball there's the WBC for the Westside and GCCYS for the North and East.

If there isn't a rule for redshirting in basketball in the WBC it's likely because one isn't needed. The GCCYS can have any set of rules they like, the WBC has their own.
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  #455  
Old 10-17-18, 04:43 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
#1. They are involved in their own program (Elder). They are not involved in running the feeder school teams. If they were, you would be complaining even louder about the "chosen". If they coached one team, you'd complain about who wasn't on it (like you just did). If they coached two teams, you would complain that "the 6th graders got the best coach b/c they are the chosen and have the inside track to playing time at Elder". Lose/lose situation.

So if I'm living under a rock and Elder coaches already have the influence, then I guess it doesn't matter?

#3. I didnt skip anything. Elder has a placement test (not an entrance test like X). X didnt try to attract more kids, just more minorities. Elder will let almost ANYONE into the school. X acts like you must meet certain testing standards. Elder doesnt need to make testing exceptions. If you want to go to school there, they'd like to have you. It's apples and oranges. Regarding LaSalle, rumor has it they let athletes come to school at a significantly discounted fee. Are you saying Elder should do this? You already complain about favortism now, can you imagine if you find out a athlete from Visi is getting money off his tuition from Elder??? In a related note, LaSalle also had to fire a significant number of faculty. I don't think Elder wants to be in that financial position. LaSalle has also recently burned through two football coaches, a basketball coach, an AD, and maybe a volleyball and baseball coach. Doesn't appear to be a culture I want at Elder?
You're right, everything is perfect. Nothing to see here. No changes needed.

You say you think change is needed, but every idea for change is an immediate devil's advocate protection of the current way of doing business.

It's this exact sentiment of sameness and stagnation that will drive further decline. It's based on protection, not improvement, and that simply won't grow the school.
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  #456  
Old 10-17-18, 05:58 PM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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I must have missed all of your specific solutions? You want Elder coaches to run multiple club teams in each sport. What else?

Short-term, Id like to see Elder run the numbers and explore lowering the cost of tuition for ALL students. I wonder how many more students would be willing to pay $10K instead of $14K (or 5K instead of 9K)? Would the reduction in fee's be made up by increased enrollment?

Does Elder now accept vouchers? Explore this option. What impact will/would that have?

I'd like Elder to be more aggressive (within the rules) and go after more public school (OH, West High, Colerain, Taylor, Harrison, Taft, Hughes, Aiken, etc.) students. Get them on campus. Let them see a pep rally, get to know the culture, etc. Sell the school and its attributes better.

I wonder what can be done to help Holy Family, Teresa, William, Dominic, Lawrence, etc. with their numbers? They accept vouchers right? Where are those boys going when they graduate? Why?

Have individual conversations with ALL eligible families. Not just mailing a letter. Prove to them you want their son at Elder. Bottom line ask them what it would take to have their son come to Elder. What do they need to have happen?

Embrace the neighborhood WAY better. Mass advertise free cookouts and let kids play in the Pit. Market the Elder games and let kids from certain schools in for free. Get them on campus!!! Are we reaching out to the head coaches of local elementary teams and encouraging them to come to the school? I'd go after Taft, West High, Hughes, etc. school teams. Can they play an actual game AT Elder? Not sure what the rules are.

Long-term, I'd like to see significant pockets of the west-side be redeveloped and new $200K+ single-family homes be built. The recently developed street in Saylor Park had significant tax incentives and is a perfect example. Who made that work? Make that happen 10X in Westwood, Price Hill, Covedale, Western Hills, etc. I understand the land-locked situation but developers are tearing downs dilapidated homes across the country. Get the city involved and provide incentive for people to want to live on the west-side. The location is great (5 min from downtown/banks/stadiums/highway/FC Cincy) and if you make it safe/desirable, families would love to build a new home there.

Last edited by PURPLE REIGN; 10-17-18 at 06:32 PM.
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  #457  
Old 10-17-18, 06:25 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
I must have missed all of your specific solutions? You want Elder coaches to run multiple club teams in each sport. What else?

Short-term, Id like to see Elder run the numbers and explore lowering the cost of tuition for ALL students. I wonder how many more students would be willing to pay $10K instead of $14K (or 5K instead of 9K)? Would the reduction in fee's be made up by increased enrollment?

Long-term, I'd like to see significant pockets of the west-side be redeveloped and new $200K+ single-family homes be built. The recently developed street in Saylor Park had significant tax incentives and is a perfect example. Who made that work? Make that happen 10X in Westwood, Price Hill, Covedale, Western Hills, etc. I understand the land-locked situation but developers are tearing downs dilapidated homes across the country. Get the city involved and provide incentive for people to want to live on the west-side. The location is great (5 min from downtown/banks/stadiums/highway) and if you make it safe/desirable, families would love to build a new home there.
I whole-heartedly agree with both points, but I don't know how Elder has any control over either of them. Cost and socio-economic factors are the top two variables, both of which you alluded to, but they're also the hardest to control.

And I've posted pages and pages of recommendations on here. Everyone always says "you never have any answers", which is blatantly false. I'll re-post for probably the 20th time things I think Elder can do right now to help:

1) Make speed and explosiveness training for all RBs, QBs, DBs, WRS, and basketball players mandatory. Either find a way to fund it, or build it in as part of their fee to play. For everyone, not just select players.
2) Expand rosters at all levels starting in 7th grade, especially in basketball. 15 minimum at every level. Develop a quasi "minor leagues" to target later developing athletes. There is talent to be found and developed, and it opens up the inclusion of your programs to more kids to feel a part of.
3) Get rid of the "class" mentality. If you're a sophomore and you're better than a senior, you play. Period. Take a holistic view of talent and build your team with grade level having zero consideration.
4) Be the highest bidder on a couple athletes each year. You don't have to go all out and break the bank with tuition aid, but truly compete for a select few kids that can make big differences on the field.
5) AD holds coaches accountable not strictly to results, but trying new approaches for success. Requires 1-2 new trial methods of operation around training or talent selection/development. Build on what's effective.
6) Market the fitness center for all its worth - and then market some more. Truly make it state of the art - don't cut corners. Renderings of the design at every corner in open house. When it's built, open that thing up for every member of every community to tour. Invite the locals to use it under supervision. Have events in it.
7) Take your volleyball and wrestling programs out of the shadow of football. Less and less kids are playing football, and both volleyball and wrestling have great success stories to tell to draw in more kids.


That's a 2 minute brain dump, I'm sure I could think of 5 more.

Last edited by trey2k; 10-17-18 at 06:41 PM.
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  #458  
Old 10-17-18, 06:36 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
I must have missed all of your specific solutions? You want Elder coaches to run multiple club teams in each sport. What else?

Short-term, Id like to see Elder run the numbers and explore lowering the cost of tuition for ALL students. I wonder how many more students would be willing to pay $10K instead of $14K (or 5K instead of 9K)? Would the reduction in fee's be made up by increased enrollment?

Does Elder now accept vouchers? Explore this option. What impact will/would that have?

I'd like Elder to be more aggressive (within the rules) and go after more public school (OH, West High, Colerain, Taylor, Harrison, Taft, Hughes, Aiken, etc.) students. Get them on campus. Let them see a pep rally, get to know the culture, etc. Sell the school and its attributes better.

I wonder what can be done to help Holy Family, Teresa, William, Dominic, Lawrence, etc. with their numbers? They accept vouchers right? Where are those boys going when they graduate? Why?

Have individual conversations with ALL eligible families. Not just mailing a letter. Prove to them you want their son at Elder. Bottom line ask them what it would take to have their son come to Elder. What do they need to have happen?

Embrace the neighborhood WAY better. Mass advertise free cookouts and let kids play in the Pit. Market the Elder games and let kids from certain schools in for free. Get them on campus!!! Are we reaching out to the head coaches of local elementary teams and encouraging them to come to the school? I'd go after Taft, West High, Hughes, etc. school teams. Not sure what the rules are.

Long-term, I'd like to see significant pockets of the west-side be redeveloped and new $200K+ single-family homes be built. The recently developed street in Saylor Park had significant tax incentives and is a perfect example. Who made that work? Make that happen 10X in Westwood, Price Hill, Covedale, Western Hills, etc. I understand the land-locked situation but developers are tearing downs dilapidated homes across the country. Get the city involved and provide incentive for people to want to live on the west-side. The location is great (5 min from downtown/banks/stadiums/highway/FC Cincy) and if you make it safe/desirable, families would love to build a new home there.
One of my relatives has a step son at Elder. They came from Holy Family, and a lot of the kids just end up at CPS. I like your ideas, but I think the most realistic solution is to go after White Oak/Montfort Heights. Itís a middle class area with good enrollment #s. Iíd love to see those initiatives for PH, WW, etc take place, but Elder does not have that kind of time.
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  #459  
Old 10-17-18, 06:48 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I whole-heartedly agree with both points, but I don't know how Elder has any control over either of them. Cost and socio-economic factors are the top two variables, both of which you alluded to, but they're also the hardest to control.

And I've posted pages and pages of recommendations on here. Everyone always says "you never have any answers", which is blatantly false. I'll re-post for probably the 20th time things I think Elder can do right now to help:

1) Make speed and explosiveness training for all RBs, QBs, DBs, WRS, and basketball players mandatory. Either find a way to fund it, or build it in as part of their fee to play. For everyone, not just select players.
2) Expand rosters at all levels starting in 7th grade, especially in basketball. 15 minimum at every level. Develop a quasi "minor leagues" to target later developing athletes. There is talent to be found and developed, and it opens up the inclusion of your programs to more kids to feel a part of.
3) Get rid of the "class" mentality. If you're a sophomore and you're better than a senior, you play. Period. Take a holistic view of talent and build your team with grade level having zero consideration.
4) Be the highest bidder on a couple athletes each year. You don't have to go all out and break the bank with tuition aid, but truly compete for a select few kids that can make big differences on the field.
5) AD holds coaches accountable not strictly to results, but trying new approaches for success. Requires 1-2 new trial methods of operation around training or talent selection/development. Build on what's effective.
6) Market the fitness center for all its worth - and then market some more. Truly make it state of the art - don't cut corners. Renderings of the design at every corner in open house. When it's built, open that thing up for every member of every community to tour. Invite the locals to use it under supervision. Have events in it.


That's a 2 minute brain dump, I'm sure I could think of 5 more.
I'll address each point:

#1- I agree in principle, except making it mandatory for everyone. Keep in mind, these aren't Professional Athletes, there's only so much time they can spend training. Every Skill position player and LB, DB should be in this kind of training.

#2- Are you talking about the Summer AAU Teams? If not, Elder doesn't have any control over what Grade Schools do with their rosters.

#3- I agree. However, I do believe a tie should go to the Upperclassman.

#4- Right or wrong, there's absolutely ZERO chance that ever happens.

#5- Not sure what you mean by this.

#6- I think they're marketing the Fitness Center a great deal. In lieu of cutting tuition for athletes as you brought up in #4, they can sell the extra tuition cost as a premium for the advanced training.
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  #460  
Old 10-17-18, 06:52 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
I'll address each point:

#1- I agree in principle, except making it mandatory for everyone. Keep in mind, these aren't Professional Athletes, there's only so much time they can spend training. Every Skill position player and LB, DB should be in this kind of training.

#2- Are you talking about the Summer AAU Teams? If not, Elder doesn't have any control over what Grade Schools do with their rosters.

#3- I agree. However, I do believe a tie should go to the Upperclassman.

#4- Right or wrong, there's absolutely ZERO chance that ever happens.

#5- Not sure what you mean by this.

#6- I think they're marketing the Fitness Center a great deal. In lieu of cutting tuition for athletes as you brought up in #4, they can sell the extra tuition cost as a premium for the advanced training.
Yes on #2.

For #5, have school leadership (ADs, Principal) start empowering new types of thinking in their sports programs. If coaches resist and want to continue doing things they way they've been done for 20 years, then maybe it's time for a new coach. But at a minimum, give each coach the opportunity to be part of some new solutions in their programs.
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  #461  
Old 10-23-18, 07:52 AM
foreword foreword is offline
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SASEAS/Gertrude beat Victory 42-0 this weekend?!?!?! Wow!

Looks like the final four are:

Visi vs. SASEAS/Gertrude

and

IHM vs. St. James
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  #462  
Old 10-23-18, 07:59 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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This is Visitation's bracket to lose. Their big hurdle was Queen of Peace who just lost to IHM. Visi has beaten IHM 38-6, St James 34-0 - I don't think they'll struggle with SASEAS/Gertrude.
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  #463  
Old 10-23-18, 08:40 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
This is Visitation's bracket to lose. Their big hurdle was Queen of Peace who just lost to IHM. Visi has beaten IHM 38-6, St James 34-0 - I don't think they'll struggle with SASEAS/Gertrude.
Very surprised IHM beat Queen of Peace.
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  #464  
Old 10-23-18, 10:03 AM
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Very surprised IHM beat Queen of Peace.
Really hope the IHM QB ends up at Elder. My understanding is itís bw E and McNick. Itís tough bc heís going to be a multi Yr starter at McNick, at E he wonít start until heís a Sr, heís not going to usurp Hambleton.
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  #465  
Old 10-23-18, 10:25 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Kids are going to go where they get playing time the quickest, and where they get the most money (in most cases).

If he's going to have to wait to play varsity football and basketball until he's a Senior and Junior, then why would he come to Elder?

Eliminate the "class" philosophy, and put kids where their development dictates. Everyone else in the GCL does this. There's no point in having a Freshman team go 19-1 or 18-2. Move some kids up so they develop at their level. This also allows more kids to develop on the Freshman team that may be contributors by the time they are juniors or seniors. For football, baseball, and basketball.
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  #466  
Old 10-23-18, 10:30 AM
Patchwork Patchwork is offline
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Originally Posted by foreword View Post
SASEAS/Gertrude beat Victory 42-0 this weekend?!?!?! Wow!

Looks like the final four are:

Visi vs. SASEAS/Gertrude

and

IHM vs. St. James
Didnt see this coming at all. Is SAS/Gert that good or was Victory that bad? I havent seen them play making this weekend a mystery.
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  #467  
Old 10-23-18, 10:48 AM
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Who will Visi play in the finals at the reserve level St Mikes or James? Heard St James has a good running that was able to run all over Visi the 1st matchup. I doubt they will let that happen again.
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  #468  
Old 10-23-18, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
Kids are going to go where they get playing time the quickest, and where they get the most money (in most cases).

If he's going to have to wait to play varsity football and basketball until he's a Senior and Junior, then why would he come to Elder?

Eliminate the "class" philosophy, and put kids where their development dictates. Everyone else in the GCL does this. There's no point in having a Freshman team go 19-1 or 18-2. Move some kids up so they develop at their level. This also allows more kids to develop on the Freshman team that may be contributors by the time they are juniors or seniors. For football, baseball, and basketball.
He wouldn’t beat out Hambleton regardless of class. I’ve heard he’s a good bball player, he’d definitely be the star of the incoming Freshmen team. That’s assuming they don’t land the big fish out there, but he’s playing Varsity no matter where he goes. Also, b-ball isn’t as rigid as football with kids playing up. They’ve played Freshmen on JV, and this Yr you’ll see a good amount of Sophs either start or get PT on varsity
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  #469  
Old 10-23-18, 11:14 AM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
He wouldn’t beat out Hambleton regardless of class. I’ve heard he’s a good bball player, he’d definitely be the star of the incoming Freshmen team. That’s assuming they don’t land the big fish out there, but he’s playing Varsity no matter where he goes. Also, b-ball isn’t as rigid as football with kids playing up. They’ve played Freshmen on JV, and this Yr you’ll see a good amount of Sophs either start or get PT on varsity
Pretty sure the IHM QB is a 7th grader. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's Weber's kid, he's a 7th grader. He's pretty small right now but he throws it pretty well.
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  #470  
Old 10-23-18, 11:17 AM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
He wouldnít beat out Hambleton regardless of class. Iíve heard heís a good bball player, heíd definitely be the star of the incoming Freshmen team. Thatís assuming they donít land the big fish out there, but heís playing Varsity no matter where he goes. Also, b-ball isnít as rigid as football with kids playing up. Theyíve played Freshmen on JV, and this Yr youíll see a good amount of Sophs either start or get PT on varsity
This is big part of why the ďclassĒ system exist. An incoming Freshman in my mind would have to beat out the person thatís been holding that Position at JV or Varsity. If you have a kid talented enough and physically ready for Varsity and he can not beat out those guys from his ďmain positionĒ would he consider a different Position for possibly a Starting Varsity spot? Would the Coaching Staff ever consider this?
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  #471  
Old 10-23-18, 11:19 AM
Insanity5 Insanity5 is offline
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Gertrude has a really good running back, fast and hard to tackle. The QB is pretty good too.
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  #472  
Old 10-23-18, 11:24 AM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Start time for Resrve game Saturday at Elder between Lourdes-Visi? See Bracket on site but only Times for Week 1 of Playoffs. Thanks
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  #473  
Old 10-23-18, 11:41 AM
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I believe it is at 4:00. I doubt it is much of a game, I believe Visi beat them in regular season and they were not starting their best 22.
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  #474  
Old 10-23-18, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by adselder09 View Post
Pretty sure the IHM QB is a 7th grader. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but if it's Weber's kid, he's a 7th grader. He's pretty small right now but he throws it pretty well.
Ok, thought he was an 8th grader. Itíll be good to have another Yr of Varsity
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  #475  
Old 10-23-18, 11:48 AM
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This is big part of why the “class” system exist. An incoming Freshman in my mind would have to beat out the person that’s been holding that Position at JV or Varsity. If you have a kid talented enough and physically ready for Varsity and he can not beat out those guys from his “main position” would he consider a different Position for possibly a Starting Varsity spot? Would the Coaching Staff ever consider this?
There’s almost zero chance you’ll ever see a position player on Varsity and I don’t mind that. Football is so physical, it’s nearly impossible for a 14/15 yr old to play up to the level of 17/18 yr olds. JV is a difft story. The Kinner kid at Bacon would be someone who could play JV as a Frosh and start for 3 yrs, but no way he could play D1 OH football as a Frosh.
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  #476  
Old 10-23-18, 12:02 PM
SMARTY22 SMARTY22 is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
There’s almost zero chance you’ll ever see a position player on Varsity and I don’t mind that. Football is so physical, it’s nearly impossible for a 14/15 yr old to play up to the level of 17/18 yr olds. JV is a difft story. The Kinner kid at Bacon would be someone who could play JV as a Frosh and start for 3 yrs, but no way he could play D1 OH football as a Frosh.
What about a JV Player though? What I’m getting at is trying to play the best 22 on Varsity. Grade should be irrelevant especially if better than kids starting at certain positions. Does the really good JV player even get to challenge for a spot on Varsity?
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Old 10-23-18, 12:16 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SMARTY22 View Post
What about a JV Player though? What I’m getting at is trying to play the best 22 on Varsity. Grade should be irrelevant especially if better than kids starting at certain positions. Does the really good JV player even get to challenge for a spot on Varsity?
We talking football or basketball? Because recently in football you've had:
Jakob James
Spencer Bono
Kyle Trischler
Michael Bittner to an extent

Other guys off the top of my head:
Max Mazza
Tim O'Conner
Kyle Rudolph
Orlando Scales
Jake Lindsey
Ben Coffaro
Nick Hall
Peyton Ramsey
Joe Schroer
Tommy Kraemer

Last edited by adselder09; 10-23-18 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 10-23-18, 12:34 PM
EHS 2001 EHS 2001 is offline
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I know this is now quite a few years ago but Ramsey, Sabato, and Hofmeyer all started most basketball games as sophomores. Going back even further, Kyle Rudolph and Alex Welch both played some varsity basketball as freshman.

I believe Tommy Kraemer was another 3 year starter on the OL.
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Old 10-23-18, 12:39 PM
adselder09 adselder09 is online now
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Jeesh how could I forget TK.
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Old 10-23-18, 12:48 PM
Omar Omar is offline
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Elder’s never had an issue starting Sophs on Varsity
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