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  #1  
Old 01-06-19, 10:51 AM
OVTC OVTC is offline
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Determing Team Champion at State

State Meet Team Champion

Bob Roncker and Don Connolly put this scenario together 45 years ago.

From each District Meet you score every individual on every team. If 12 teams score 24 places with 1st place 24 points, etc. In running events the top 8 places would be the running final and places 9-24 would be prelim times in order even if some of the 9-24 prelim times are faster than some times in the final.

The top 2 teams under this system would advance to Regionals with two team members per event brought forward to Regionals. At Regionals,with 4 Districts feeding into Regionals then there would be 8 teams competing for top 2 Regional teams that would then compete at State.

Example: 100m Boys
Have the normal qualifying of two semis leading to the final. In addition there would be 1 or 2 heats of the eligible runners from the 8 teams that were not in the two semis. Team scoring at Regionals would be 32 for 1st, 31 for 2nd, etc. Again, the final would be places 1-8 and places 9, etc. would be from the non-qualifiers from the semis plus the 2 extra team heats. Scoring would still be 32, 31, etc. even if not 32 individuals.

Same scenario at State.

Plusses:
1. No dual meet season extension.
2. No extra meets or running for the athletes. Done with existing meets with officials, fans, e
3. “Whole” team advances and extends season for “team” with much more teammate support at succeeding meets.
4. Easy to score.
5. No extra travel or days of competition.
6. Only problem for coach is determining where to place his 100m boy who could qualify for state in the 200 because he finished in top 4 but didn’t qualify for the semis in the 100. But that would make the meet even more interesting.
7. System similar to cross country and other sports where a team advances.
8. Scoring puts a premium on all places and all athletes in the meet. You could have athletes being cheered beyond their imagination.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-19, 01:07 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Too much complexity. Also, track & field is an individual sport with some team aspects.

A simpler system was already used during part of the 1920s-early 1930s. At that time, for Classes A & B (there was a Class C - 1926-28), scoring was 6-4-3-2-1, and the top 2 teams from each class at the District meet then took their WHOLE team to state. Then the coach could enter athletes that had not competed in a particular event at the district into an event at state. There are numerous examples of athletes gaining points in events at the state meet from that era having not competed in the event at district. I know this from my own research into the Southwest Ohio district meets that were held at Oxford during the 1923-33 era. Simpler system, IMHO.
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  #3  
Old 01-07-19, 08:13 PM
cvctrackfan cvctrackfan is offline
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The biggest change I would like to see is doubling the value of relays. Also I would like to limit individuals to only two indivual events. Just like swimming.
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  #4  
Old 01-07-19, 11:10 PM
Run4Life Run4Life is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
The biggest change I would like to see is doubling the value of relays. Also I would like to limit individuals to only two indivual events. Just like swimming.
I could go with the relay point doubling, but no for the 2 event limit. There have been years where athletes scored multiple events in the field events and on the track, and it would do disservice to athletes to place that limit in place.

That would be akin to limiting football players to only play in one position in the playoffs.
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  #5  
Old 01-08-19, 12:45 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvctrackfan View Post
The biggest change I would like to see is doubling the value of relays. Also I would like to limit individuals to only two indivual events. Just like swimming.
Explain to me why you would limit an individual who is talented enough to do well in more than 2 events? If it is about "fairness", well, LIFE AIN'T FAIR, nor should it be!
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  #6  
Old 01-08-19, 03:31 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Too much complexity. Also, track & field is an individual sport with some team aspects.
I disagree. Track and field is just a very complex, if not the most complex, Team Sport. I never look at it as an individual sport with some team aspects. I look at it completely the opposite.
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  #7  
Old 01-08-19, 04:49 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
I disagree. Track and field is just a very complex, if not the most complex, Team Sport. I never look at it as an individual sport with some team aspects. I look at it completely the opposite.
To each their own.

Let me ask you this, would you deny the following past multi-event winners at state the honor of having won the team state title as the sole individual responsible for their entire team's points at the state meet?

1954 - Glenn Davis (Barberton) - 20 pts
1964 - Craig Wallace (Dayton Dunbar) - 18 pts
1971 - Eric Penick (Gates Mills Gilmour Academy) - 30 pts
1983-84 - LaVonna Martin (Trotwood-Madison) - 38 pts (both years)
1991 - Lincoln Cobb (Pettisville) - 28 pts
1996 - Sarah DeWolfe (Defiance Ayersville) - 38 pts
1998 - Ryan Wilson (Westerville North) - 30 pts
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  #8  
Old 01-08-19, 05:16 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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Yep, and I've watched many basketball games, Soccer Games, Baseball, Football and Hockey where it was one person that dominated. No difference to me. It is to your advantage to have 10 people vs 1. It is very rare that a state championship team, even if it ends up at the state meet as only one or two individuals, didn't place high as a team at the District and Regional levels. Years ago, we had a girls team that only had 8 kids on the team. couldn't win a dual meet, but was 2nd at the state meet. Just happened to have 5 or 6 kids that could score at the state level. We had a team that finished 2nd for the boys with only 2 kids. State champ in the 1600 and 3200. 2nd in HJ, 110 Hurdles and scored in the 100m. Two exceptional athletes. However, the team was good at other spots. 2nd HJer was 6'-4" Didn't qualify. How many years does that not qualify. Long jumper got injured. etc... We had a team that also finished 2nd with 6 or 7 kids with the same points as the 2 man qualifying team.

Scoring 10 points with one kid is the same as scoring 10 with 2 kids in an event.

We had a girl that I'm not sure ran the 1600 all year until the District meet. She ran the 100 - 3200 for us to win meets. Decided the 1600 was her race for the state championship run. She had placed top 8 in the 800 the year before. She ended up 2nd in the 1600. Her teammate was 1st.

You make decisions. Do you double a kid 1600/3200 or skip the 1600 for just the 3200. We look at it as how many points can you score. If you run the 1600 and get 5th, what can you come back and do in the 3200. Can you score more points just running the 3200?

We had a girl run the 1600, 3200 and come back in the 4x400 at the Regional. At the state meet, she Qualified us to the final of the 4x400 and then ran the 1600 (1st) and 3200 (4th) then we ran the alternate in the finals of the 4x400 and got a point. You do those things to maximize points.

If you can get more points with one stud than everyone else. good for you. If you have a shooting guard that can score 50, good for you too.
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  #9  
Old 01-09-19, 07:35 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Explain to me why you would limit an individual who is talented enough to do well in more than 2 events? If it is about "fairness", well, LIFE AIN'T FAIR, nor should it be!
I think he is referring to the rule in swimming. Swimming you can only do 2 relays or 4 individual events in Ohio. Or a combination. But for some reason, swimming limits their kids to 2 relays.

I 100% disagree with this idea.
I remember back in the 90's a team only had 6 runners and they qualified to the state meet with the 4x100, 4x200, 4x400, and 4x800. A combination of the kids qualified to the state meet including 2 guys on all 4 relays. If you want to make it about TEAM then why limit the team events?
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  #10  
Old 01-09-19, 03:20 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAVMAN83 View Post
Explain to me why you would limit an individual who is talented enough to do well in more than 2 events? If it is about "fairness", well, LIFE AIN'T FAIR, nor should it be!
Then why have the current four event limit? If talent is the only limit then ditch all other limits.
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  #11  
Old 01-09-19, 03:23 PM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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If you can win a state title with one or two athletes then why do you need nine to count as a team? Does OHSAA make sure every school enters nine at district before they are eligible for a team trophy at any level?
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  #12  
Old 01-09-19, 03:58 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
I think he is referring to the rule in swimming. Swimming you can only do 2 relays or 4 individual events in Ohio. Or a combination. But for some reason, swimming limits their kids to 2 relays.
You have this wrong. A swimmer can swim in up to two individual events. So they can swim on all three relays and one individual is the coach chooses. I am not sure why the rule is in place but I speculate it is because they don't want 1 swimmer winning half the individual events. This year if the rule wasn't in place the Foster bothers from Cincy Sycamore would win every individual swimming event.
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  #13  
Old 01-09-19, 05:06 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Then why have the current four event limit? If talent is the only limit then ditch all other limits.
I was never a fan of that rule.
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  #14  
Old 01-09-19, 06:03 PM
OVTC OVTC is offline
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Team Aspect

Question is should a true team champion be the team that scores the most points filling as many events as possible and I say yes. And doesn't that help to get more kids involved and expand the exposure of our sport?

There are track meets that score every participant no matter how many entered in each event and so you can imagine the cheering and encouragement that happens.

Those examples of individuals winning the state meet by themselves are only examples of people winning the lottery. As a former coach I can appreciate the luck of having talented and dedicated athletes come out and nurturing them to success.

Don Connolly
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  #15  
Old 01-09-19, 06:06 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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For what it's worth...
The 4-event rule may be in place so that some coaches do not overuse (abuse) a developing young person by putting them in every event possible when it may be unhealthy for young kids. I am sure that some 18 year olds can take it, but I already have seen some programs put a talented young boy or girl (14-15 years old) in a 4 x 800, 400, 800 and 4 x 400 in almost every meet or the 4 x 8, 1600, 800 and 3200 at a mid week dual meet AND a Saturday invite. Most of the time, I take note when I see that young athlete in a walking boot late in the season OR not running as fast at the end of the year. Remember, Just because a kid "can do it" or "wants to do it" does not mean that they should do it.
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  #16  
Old 01-09-19, 06:23 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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IMO,
Making relays worth more(double)points - as they do in Texas - does not really promote the team aspect as much as it makes the sport very "unfair" toward sprint heavy programs. (Keep in mind, there is not even a 4 x 800 at the Texas State Meet). Programs that may be more dominant in field events or distance events may not get the chance to "shine" or at least less of a chance that they do now. The sport is called Track and Field and the Field event althlets should at least be seen as "equal" to the tracksters.

I do not have a problem with 1 or 2 athletes winning a team title (because it happens so rarely), but it should be noted that 1 athlete has not won since they went to scoring 8 places.... However, Lavonna Martin (example) could have probably won the LJ, 100, 100H, 200, 300H and scored in the HJ if allowed more than 4 events.
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  #17  
Old 01-09-19, 09:52 PM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OVTC View Post
Question is should a true team champion be the team that scores the most points filling as many events as possible and I say yes. And doesn't that help to get more kids involved and expand the exposure of our sport?

There are track meets that score every participant no matter how many entered in each event and so you can imagine the cheering and encouragement that happens.

Those examples of individuals winning the state meet by themselves are only examples of people winning the lottery. As a former coach I can appreciate the luck of having talented and dedicated athletes come out and nurturing them to success.

Don Connolly
I agree with your desire on more kids getting involved. That is a WONDERFUL goal!

I have never seen a meet (track & field) that scored every participant. That is a NEW one in my 40+ years in the sport at various levels.
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  #18  
Old 01-10-19, 03:05 AM
said_aouita said_aouita is offline
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Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
Then why have the current four event limit? If talent is the only limit then ditch all other limits.
They have that rule to rein in ignorant coaches.
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  #19  
Old 01-10-19, 07:11 AM
JAVMAN83 JAVMAN83 is offline
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Originally Posted by said_aouita View Post
They have that rule to rein in ignorant coaches.
The desire to reign in ignorant or "greedy" coaches I'm sure had something to do with it, if not most. These rules, however, were enacted in more Victorian times as limits on participation have been around since the beginning of the sport. I would suggest that other reasoning has to do what was seen as "fair play" by giving others a "fair chance" at winning. We all know of and have seen coaches that pushed their kids too far in trying to compete in a maximum number of events to the kid's detriment. FEW are able to stand up to repeated abuse by those types of coaches. I have witnessed this type of abuse myself and it has always pissed me off. Coaches need to be able to READ their athletes' response to the stress of training and competition and adjust according for the benefit of the athlete, not the coach.

That said, while I'm generally not a big fan on limiting athletes' abilities through artificial rules, I do understand why they are there.
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Old 01-10-19, 02:43 PM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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We already determine state championship teams and every team starts at the District with the same number of possible events to enter and same number of athletes they can enter. I don't see how changing anything would help participation. I think Track and Field has been steadily growing for years. Fixing a problem that does not exist.
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  #21  
Old 01-11-19, 07:49 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Agree with Psychodad.... Although we maybe able to "change with the times", Track & field, especially in High School, and for sure, in Ohio has been on the upswing for at least a couple decades.
I think, if we continue to put the student/athletes first and not just cater to our top athletes that trend will continue.
Just because our program stresses the "team" concept and another may stress the individual aspect does not mean one is "right" and one is "wrong".... There is room for both and both can thrive as long as it is building positive experiences for the kids.
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  #22  
Old 01-11-19, 09:34 AM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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Originally Posted by yj_runfan View Post
If you can win a state title with one or two athletes then why do you need nine to count as a team? Does OHSAA make sure every school enters nine at district before they are eligible for a team trophy at any level?
The answer to this question is "no".
This IS something that may be able to change with the "changing of the times".
It is not difficult to change the definition of a "team" for track & field to another arbitrary number that may be of benifit to kids and programs...and the sport.
this has been discussed, but IMO, if the OHSAA must use a number of greater than 1 to define a team for track and field, Then the number FOUR (4) competing at theDistrict makes more sense. Four is the number to make up a relay " AND with 4 kids, a team can also contest more than half of the 17 events, AND some may say that track has four different types of events, Throwers, Jumpers, Sprinter/hurdlers, Distance or 1. Strength; 2. Endurance; 3. Speed; 4. Technical events
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  #23  
Old 01-11-19, 12:25 PM
CC Track Fan CC Track Fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_dad View Post
We already determine state championship teams and every team starts at the District with the same number of possible events to enter and same number of athletes they can enter. I don't see how changing anything would help participation. I think Track and Field has been steadily growing for years. Fixing a problem that does not exist.
Did wrestling think there was a problem when they added the team championship several years ago? Or did they think that adding the team championship because it would make there great sport better?
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  #24  
Old 01-11-19, 03:01 PM
ENA2 ENA2 is offline
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I believe, wrestling has not grown very well over the past couple decades and has lost some it's luster. I happen to be a fan of wrestling, but they did lose participation at the high school level is some places and even at the Olympic Games. IMO some of wrestling's idendity crisis may be because of television's WWE (or WWF) of the 90's or even due to other "ring" fighting. Also, like track now has lacrosse to contend with and other sports, wrestling does have to compete with many "new and exciting" things pulling their athletes away in the winter. examples: indoor - year round soccer, Bowling, and even indoor track oppurtunities. Plus, more "year-round" football. Also, wrestling really does not have a "female" sport to balance things out at ostr schools. I'm not saying title IX has impacted things at the high school level like it may have for some colleges, but wrestling, at least for some smaller schools has taken a hit.
The dual Meet or team meet may have been to combat all this, but not sure it has enhanced the sport very much. I am a fan, but not an expert. I'm sure the hard-core wrestling folks like the changes, but not sure about the "average joe".
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  #25  
Old 01-13-19, 12:05 PM
needforspeed needforspeed is offline
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There is another method to scoring the state meet using dual meets

There is another method to scoring the state meet using dual meets:
1.) District, regional and state meet set dates would remain as they are.
2.) No extra meets are needed.
3.) These meets would be conducted exactly the same as in the past with one exception.
4.) The exception is that in addition to 4 athletes selected in each event there would be a team selected.
5.) This would create more athletes and more heats.
6.) Each of these levels in region 3 and region 4 mathematically are 16.
7.) In regions 1 & 2 they do not use the 4X4 however they use another mathematical sequence that still allows them to get to 16 at the regional level.
8.) At the regional level all 4 regions have 16 individuals in each event. Plus in this method there would also be 4 teams that would advance.
9.) At the state meet we would have four individuals from 4 regions = 16 individuals per event.
10.) In addition, with this method you would have 16 teams.
11.) Use the example of the 100m dash. At this point five individuals would be chosen as judges and they would select teams and seed them.
12.) Each judge would be assigned to 3 events (3X5 = 15). Then the two events left over would be assigned to any judge who finished first with their assignment.
13.) Use the 100m dash as an example. In this event there could be anywhere from 30-40 individual runners. So, heats would be set up to accommodate this many runners plus an extra heat for the finals.
14.) The judge of the 100m would take the total number of competitors and list them in order of the fastest to the slowest.
15.) The five judges will seed at least 6 teams.
16.) So the 100m judge will take team A against team B. Team A runs a 10.4 and is first and gets 5 points. Team B runs 10.6 and 10.7 and gets second and third - 3 points for second and 1 point for third and has scored 4 points.
17.) This same method would be applied to all 17 events.
18.) At this point all the points for Team A would be added up and all the points for Team B would be added up. And these point totals might add up to 72 to 66 in favor of Team A.
19.) The same procedure would follow with Team A against Team C then D and so on until you established the Teams in a 1, 2, 3 order based on each one of these dual meets.
20.) Example:
A versus B = A wins
A versus C = A wins
A versus D = A wins
A versus E = A wins
A versus F = A wins
Do the same procedure with B, C, D, E and F.
21.) So for instance, when C goes against D C gets beat by D so now the progression is A, B, D. Then suppose, C who goes up against E but gets beat so progression is A, B, D, E, C.
22.) Using this method would perhaps take 3-4 hours to come up with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 place however with the technology that we have today this could be computerized.
23.) A program could be set up that would place 38 competitors in order from 1-38 based on their time with each competitor being on a team.
24.) The determination of whether to do this by hand or computer would be the cost of a computer program. However, you could use this program at all levels (district, regionals etc.) and it could be used multiple years.
25.) A program of this type could complete all 38 teams’ scores in probably less than 15 minutes. You could select any two teams and it would produce a score.
Any thoughts on this?
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  #26  
Old 01-13-19, 10:42 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Here is something to consider. You are not really running a dual meet when you score a bigger meet as a series of duals. In 2017 we won the district, but the lineup we used would not have won all of the head to head dual meets. In fact no team beat all of the others. I am pretty confident we could have beaten each of the other teams in an actual dual meet, it just would have meant shuffling the lineups. Using one fixed lineup against all of the other teams doesn't necessarily show "who would win" in an actual head to head matchup.
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  #27  
Old 01-16-19, 08:26 PM
needforspeed needforspeed is offline
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Here's what can be done for Head to head dual meets

After the state meet is finished and the four teams are decided by dual meets using data, a tournament could be held the following week where team 1 goes against team 4. and team 2 goes against team 3. The winners of those two dual meets would then compete for the championship and then the other two teams would compete for 3rd and 4th.
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