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  #31  
Old 10-13-18, 05:33 PM
ElderHockeyDad ElderHockeyDad is offline
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Originally Posted by Omar View Post
None are impact football players. Itís good from a #s perspective, but 200 is way too low after a class of 170.

So change your message to "Elder needs to recruit African American players so they can win state championships like LaSalle did".
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  #32  
Old 10-13-18, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by ElderHockeyDad View Post
So change your message to "Elder needs to recruit African American players so they can win state championships like LaSalle did".
Forget winning a state title, they need them just to compete with their existing schedule. Friday night it was blatantly obvious how lacking in speed they are, and it’s the same story EVERY year.

People want to put this on the coaches bc they’re an easy target, but they’re being dealt a bad hand. You can hate the playcalling, but it doesn’t make a difference when you don’t have the players to be successful against a brutal schedule.

Last edited by Omar; 10-13-18 at 05:55 PM.
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  #33  
Old 10-13-18, 07:34 PM
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Off the top of my head, since 2010 here are the games that make up the trend we saw last night:

2010: Colerain, Ed’s
2011: Trinity, Ed’s
2012: Trinity, Ed’s
2013: Ed’s, Moe
2014: McD, LS, Wayne
2015: WW, Colerain
2016: WW
2017: Ed’s
2018: WW

All these games they’ve been dominated bc they didn’t have enough speed or athleticism, that’s not a coaching issue.

Again, I’m not trying to be morose or disrespectful, but it’s very hard to be optimistic about Elder’s future, when I look at the Frosh and JV and see these same areas of weakness.

Last edited by Omar; 10-13-18 at 07:56 PM.
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  #34  
Old 10-14-18, 01:08 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I've said it before and got crucified and will say it again and get crucified...they don't want to make changes to expand outside of non-feeders because doing so limits their control. Bringing in kids that will take spots ruins the gravy train for certain pockets of influence that control the ship.

There are certain names with past dads, brothers, relatives, and friends that know they have the inside track for their kids to play sports at Elder because of their own legacy, and they don't want that to end. Not 100% of the kids, but a wide circle of influence that will do what they can to ensure certain kids get opportunity, regardless of being the best talent.

Bringing in outside talent disrupts that path, and they know it, and they'll do whatever they can to prevent it. Why else would they not use open borders to their advantage like every other major D1 program in the state?
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  #35  
Old 10-14-18, 01:33 AM
ElderHSfan02 ElderHSfan02 is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
I've said it before and got crucified and will say it again and get crucified...they don't want to make changes to expand outside of non-feeders because doing so limits their control. Bringing in kids that will take spots ruins the gravy train for certain pockets of influence that control the ship.

There are certain names with past dads, brothers, relatives, and friends that know they have the inside track for their kids to play sports at Elder because of their own legacy, and they don't want that to end. Not 100% of the kids, but a wide circle of influence that will do what they can to ensure certain kids get opportunity, regardless of being the best talent.

Bringing in outside talent disrupts that path, and they know it, and they'll do whatever they can to prevent it. Why else would they not use open borders to their advantage like every other major D1 program in the state?
trey2k jump the shark moment. You canít seriously believe anything you just posted?
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  #36  
Old 10-14-18, 08:03 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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I mean, yeah, I do kind of believe some of this, but I also don't want to believe it. There's obviously no way to prove it, so people will just call me crazy, but I've heard people say it. The more they open up recruiting, the more "those kids" take spots from "our kids". You don't think people feel this way?

I've also asked the question and never gotten an answer - why would they continue to not target very good athletes to come to Elder from a city-wide perspective to make their teams better, when their competition is doing it, and it's perfectly within the rules to do?

10 years ago, the OHSAA changed a rule and handed out the keys to the kingdom, especially to the already great programs, and Elder said "nah, we're good." Why? Basically handed them free money..."nah, we don't need it, and we still don't need it". Year after year, the gift is there, and they refuse the gift.

Someone please tell me why. Everyone (everyone on here, not everyone in real life) says I'm so crazy for thinking this, but no one can answer that question. In fact, when most people answer it, they say "well it's not right for those kids to come in and take a feeder kids spot".

I've heard it...you've heard it...and many, many people are threatened by it. It's certainly not a "jump the shark" theory.

You can call me crazy, but at least give me your theory of the why. No one ever does that. They just name call, which makes me believe it even more.

It's also a reason why Elder is looked at as not being diverse in thought. The perception isn't that we're bad people, it's that they feel they won't get an equal shot because of all of the in-bred relationships. That is without a doubt part of the problem with getting a more diverse crowd to attend Elder.

Last edited by trey2k; 10-14-18 at 08:50 AM.
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  #37  
Old 10-14-18, 09:41 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
The more they open up recruiting, the more "those kids" take spots from "our kids". You don't think people feel this way?

I've also asked the question and never gotten an answer - why would they continue to not target very good athletes to come to Elder from a city-wide perspective to make their teams better, when their competition is doing it, and it's perfectly within the rules to do?

10 years ago, the OHSAA changed a rule and handed out the keys to the kingdom, especially to the already great programs, and Elder said "nah, we're good." Why? Basically handed them free money..."nah, we don't need it, and we still don't need it". Year after year, the gift is there, and they refuse the gift.

I've heard it...you've heard it...and many, many people are threatened by it. It's certainly not a "jump the shark" theory.

It's also a reason why Elder is looked at as not being diverse in thought. The perception isn't that we're bad people, it's that they feel they won't get an equal shot because of all of the in-bred relationships. That is without a doubt part of the problem with getting a more diverse crowd to attend Elder.
When you post your conspiracy theories on here you often raise a handful of valid points. This is not one of them.

I know quite a few coaches in various program and interact with them often. In all my years, never once have I heard ANYONE (no coach, no teacher, no administrator) ever say anything close to this. To insinuate and use the words "those kids" and "our kids" is ridiculous. No one has a "spot". Not even sure what it means. As I've said, if you think these f'in coaches at Elder, who are making peanuts, and putting in thousands of hours preparing to win, are going to hurt the team by playing one kid and not another based on what grade school they attended, you are &^%#(* in the head. Not even sure how you can think this when their are so many examples of kids who have been starters in every sport, but did not attend a traditional feeder school. If you are good enough, you will play.

Obviously your vendetta against Visi is clear, but what about the other traditional feeder kids? Is Dominic one of "those" or one of us? What about Holy Family/William? How about OH feeder school who had a dad attend Elder? "Those" or "Us"? Once you enter the walls of Elder your Freshman year, each is ONE OF US no matter what grade school they went to.

Elder has 199 kids from 32 grade schools as part of this freshman class. This fact completely disproves your narrative.

As for your next point, many have answered but you continue to ignore and act as if you have some million dollar question. Elder is not targeting ATHLETES, but they are targeting STUDENTS from a city-wide perspective. They are not going to go after a kid just b/c he is a good athlete. Again, 32 grade schools!

As for the vouchers question, I am told when it was first rolled out, it came with a lot of red-tape and restrictions. Elder looked at what they offer in financial aid and thought it was comparable to what the kids would be paying anyway. They were not the only schools to not accept them. They probably made a mistake.

Again, ELDER WANTS KIDS WHO WANT TO BE AT ELDER. They will try to find a way and work with EVERY family. But they do not want kids who are looking for a hand-out. Parents who shop their child to the highest bidder. Kids who are not in it for the right reasons. I really wish their were more of them (students) and Elder did a better job attracting them (students). Hopefully this begins to change soon.

Last edited by PURPLE REIGN; 10-14-18 at 07:39 PM.
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  #38  
Old 10-14-18, 10:19 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Calm down, this isn't an attack against your way of life, it's simply an opinion.

And I was referring more the attitude of alot of parents, not specifically the coaches. I think alot of the relationships the coaches have can sway them to make the easier decision rather than the right one.

I put most of the fault of this steady decline on the administration. Decisions are important, and certain very important decisions have led them to this. You can't hide from that. I have praised the kids and the quality of coaches for a long time.

What's wrong with targeting a good athlete to see if he wants to attend Elder? Why is that "bad"? Because he's a good athlete means he can't be a good student? Why is that the immediate reaction?

You think the athletes at Moeller all fail out after basketball season? Hell no - they are good kids from good families. They just happen to be exceptional athletes. Why is that so taboo?

It's the widely held perception that more Black students (or great athletes who are any race) are going to do something to ruin the mission because "they aren't here for academics" and that they're just here to play sports - this is exactly the perception that we have in the public, and it's put on display all the time, just like you just did. And then we all wonder why the perception exists.

All these athletes are going to ruin the hallowed halls of Elder. They're going to come in and take over and spoil all of the wholesome Catholics we have developed as fine young adults - it's a cop out, BS excuse IMO.

Last edited by trey2k; 10-14-18 at 10:30 AM.
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  #39  
Old 10-14-18, 10:36 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post

Elder has 199 kids from 32 grade schools as part of this freshman class. This fact completely disproves your narrative.

.
So this is how we're defining diversity now? Nothing to see here...move on. It doesn't disprove anything. None of these kids were diverse athletes.

And for what it's worth, I don't care if they decide not to pursue these types of athletes, but they have to either commit to it, or explain they never will to ease the expectations of an ever-growing restless fan and alumni base.

Last edited by trey2k; 10-14-18 at 11:03 AM.
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  #40  
Old 10-14-18, 10:38 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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No this was not just an opinion. You tossed out baseless and racist accusations, as if it was an accepted dirty little secret. Widely held perception??? By who? No one from Elder has ever said or insinuated that a black student is going to ruin the Elder mission. Quite the contrary. Me and EVERY person I know wants Elder to continue to diversify and add more students from all backgrounds. If you are hanging around with parents who are saying this, you should probably find new people to hang out with huh? Seems to be a you problem.

I provided point by point rebuttal, provided facts, and asked you to answer quite a few questions which you ignored.

As for your question, nothing is wrong with targeting students who are also good athletes. It's what Elder has been doing for 20 years. They just have not been doing it well.
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  #41  
Old 10-14-18, 10:42 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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It doesn't disprove anything. None of these kids were diverse athletes.
Again, Elder is not catering to the athlete, they are catering to the student.
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  #42  
Old 10-14-18, 11:02 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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What student athlete of a diverse background has Elder targeted over the past 5 years and didn't get? I'm talking truly made an a real recruiting effort to land them.

I'll wait. We all know they don't do that.

And I never said anything insinuating anyone was racist. That's your ploy to discredit an opinion that scares and threatens you.

Last edited by trey2k; 10-14-18 at 11:18 AM.
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  #43  
Old 10-14-18, 11:06 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
It's what Elder has been doing for 20 years. They just have not been doing it well.
So you're telling us that Elder "has been doing" this for 20 years, and they've just been really unlucky?

20 years of trying and it's just not working out for them, even when the their governing body completely opened up the rules to give them every opportunity to be good at it. Must be bad luck. Yep, that must be it.

Why do you think they haven't been successful?

It's an insulated mindset and culture that people are very,very slow to change. It's not purposeful, or racist, or prejudiced, or any of that crap.

You said yourself that they want kids who want to be students at Elder...what are you insinuating? What do you mean by that in terms of attracting diverse athletes kids to Elder?
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  #44  
Old 10-14-18, 11:14 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
What student athlete of a diverse background has Elder targeted over the past 5 years and didn't get?
I dont work for the school. How would I know the names of black kids over the past 5 years who Elder wanted to attend but chose another school?
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  #45  
Old 10-14-18, 11:17 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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You said they've been doing it for over 20 years...doing what then? I assumed you made that statement with some specifics.
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  #46  
Old 10-14-18, 11:17 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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And I never said anything insinuating anyone was racist. That's your ploy to discredit an opinion that scares and threatens you.
Call me crazy but your comment below is absolutely racist and I disagree with it. Not sure how you cant see it.

"It's the widely held perception that more Black students are going to do something to ruin the mission because "they aren't here for academics" and that they're just here to play sports."
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  #47  
Old 10-14-18, 11:19 AM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
You said they've been doing it for over 20 years...doing what then? I assumed you made that statement with some specifics.
They have been actively trying to get students to attend Elder but the overall enrollment continues to decline.
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  #48  
Old 10-14-18, 11:19 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Go back through these threads over the years and count the insinuation of that exact point.
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  #49  
Old 10-14-18, 11:22 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
They have been actively trying to get students to attend Elder but the overall enrollment continues to decline.
And they've never had a consistent diverse candidate pool which reflects poor diversity overall.

You can see obvious differences at X, Moe, and LaSalle. Why not Elder? It has nothing to do with the insulated view of Elder being the school for the westside Catholic kids? Of course that's how we've traditionally thought of it. Outsiders see it the same way, and THEY DON'T LIKE THAT. That's the piece that has to change in order to get outsiders interested in Elder.

What we view as loyalty and tradition, they view as priviledge, less opportunity, and favoritism.
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  #50  
Old 10-14-18, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post

You said yourself that they want kids who want to be students at Elder...what are you insinuating? What do you mean by that in terms of attracting diverse athletes kids to Elder?
I think youíre reading way too much into that. All he is saying is athletes are expected to keep up with their class work. Thereís been plenty of white athletes at Elder that couldnít follow this rule and they ended up transferring or sitting out.
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  #51  
Old 10-14-18, 11:22 AM
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You said yourself that they want kids who want to be students at Elder...what are you insinuating? What do you mean by that in terms of attracting diverse athletes kids to Elder?
I am insinuating, that Elder is not going to make exceptions for kids just b/c they are good at sports. Perfect example is current LB at LaSalle from OH feeder. Leveraged, X, Elder, and LaSalle. Chose the school who gave him the best offer.
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  #52  
Old 10-14-18, 11:30 AM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
I am insinuating, that Elder is not going to make exceptions for kids just b/c they are good at sports. Perfect example is current LB at LaSalle from OH feeder. Leveraged, X, Elder, and LaSalle. Chose the school who gave him the best offer.
But how do you know this kid wasn't a good student? My guess is that his family definitely needed the financial aid. I thought Elder wanted to help those type of kids. He's off limits now because he's good at sports? Do you actually think whatever school he's going to isn't going to care about his academics or religious aspect of his role at school? So his family chose the best offer...of course they did, we all do that too.

You are proving my point.
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  #53  
Old 10-14-18, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But how do you know this kid wasn't a good student? My guess is that his family definitely needed the financial aid. I thought Elder wanted to help those type of kids. He's off limits now because he's good at sports? Do you actually think whatever school he's going to isn't going to care about his academics or religious aspect of his role at school? So his family chose the best offer...of course they did, we all do that too.

You are proving my point.
The kid in question is white
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  #54  
Old 10-14-18, 01:41 PM
trey2k trey2k is offline
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The kid in question is white
What does that have to do with anything?

There is nothing wrong with targeting kids (Black, White, Purple, Green) who are great at many different things (academics, athletics, the arts, music, etc, etc).

How are they ever going to compete on the field if they never compete for them to go their school?

If they meet the requirements to go to school, and happen to be great at football (or basketball, or the violin, or drama, or academics), why wouldn't you do what it takes to get them? Great athletes can be great in the classroom too.

There is nothing wrong with targeting talented kids to go to your school, and then doing what it takes to get them there. That's what recruiting (the good kind) is all about. It's ACTIVE recruiting - going out and selling, not re-active, where you're hoping they pick Elder. That's not wrong, it's smart, and leads to a competitive advantage (which now many have over them).

I don't understand the mindset. None of our league or state level competitors operate that way, and the proof is in the results.
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  #55  
Old 10-14-18, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
What does that have to do with anything?

There is nothing wrong with targeting kids (Black, White, Purple, Green) who are great at many different things (academics, athletics, the arts, music, etc, etc).

How are they ever going to compete on the field if they never compete for them to go their school?

If they meet the requirements to go to school, and happen to be great at football (or basketball, or the violin, or drama, or academics), why wouldn't you do what it takes to get them? Great athletes can be great in the classroom too.

There is nothing wrong with targeting talented kids to go to your school, and then doing what it takes to get them there. That's what recruiting (the good kind) is all about. It's ACTIVE recruiting - going out and selling, not re-active, where you're hoping they pick Elder. That's not wrong, it's smart, and leads to a competitive advantage (which now many have over them).

I don't understand the mindset. None of our league or state level competitors operate that way, and the proof is in the results.
You were the one making it sound like Elder wasnít interested bc of his race. I agree with your overall sentiment. Whatever Elder has done to this point hasnít worked, so they have to do something new.
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  #56  
Old 10-14-18, 03:42 PM
PURPLE REIGN PURPLE REIGN is offline
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
But how do you know this kid wasn't a good student? My guess is that his family definitely needed the financial aid. I thought Elder wanted to help those type of kids. He's off limits now because he's good at sports? Do you actually think whatever school he's going to isn't going to care about his academics or religious aspect of his role at school? So his family chose the best offer...of course they did, we all do that too.

You are proving my point.
It has nothing to do with him being a good student. Never said anyone had to be a good student. Just had to want to be a student. He didnt really want to come to Elder in the first place. He wanted to go to whichever school took the most off of his tuition. Elder gave him financial aid based on need. The school he chose all but allowed him to come for free.

Last edited by PURPLE REIGN; 10-14-18 at 03:54 PM.
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  #57  
Old 10-14-18, 03:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
It has nothing to do with him being a good student. He didnt really want to come to Elder in the first place. He wanted to go to whichever school took the most off of his tuition. Elder gave him financial aid based on need. The school he chose all but allowed him to come for free.
Letís not put this on the kid, Iím sure the parents were the ones who cared about the $.
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  #58  
Old 10-14-18, 03:45 PM
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Letís not put this on the kid, Iím sure the parents were the ones who cared about the $.
The kid is a great kid. It's the dad who is the issue.
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  #59  
Old 10-14-18, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by trey2k View Post
What does that have to do with anything?

There is nothing wrong with targeting kids (Black, White, Purple, Green) who are great at many different things (academics, athletics, the arts, music, etc, etc).

How are they ever going to compete on the field if they never compete for them to go their school?

If they meet the requirements to go to school, and happen to be great at football (or basketball, or the violin, or drama, or academics), why wouldn't you do what it takes to get them? Great athletes can be great in the classroom too.

There is nothing wrong with targeting talented kids to go to your school, and then doing what it takes to get them there. That's what recruiting (the good kind) is all about. It's ACTIVE recruiting - going out and selling, not re-active, where you're hoping they pick Elder. That's not wrong, it's smart, and leads to a competitive advantage (which now many have over them).

I don't understand the mindset. None of our league or state level competitors operate that way, and the proof is in the results.
This is the first thing you have said that makes any sense and what I said from the beginning. Figure out a way to attract more STUDENTS of all backgrounds.
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  #60  
Old 10-14-18, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by PURPLE REIGN View Post
The kid is a great kid. It's the dad who is the issue.
Thatís usually the case. Most 14 yr olds donít have a strong concept of $, so theyíre not likely bargaining for tuition.
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