Is it time for the OHSAA to cap rosters?

[VVTommyBoy]

What exactly do you want OHSAA to do for you? Are you confident that you won't be the NIT of high school championships?

[cabezadecaballo]

Originally Posted by VVTommyBoy

What exactly do you want OHSAA to do for you? Are you confident that you won't be the NIT of high school championships?

Your thinking is illustrative of the problem. Are you Duke or Kentucky ?

Do you think there would 64 teams left in your "big dance" if the publics left you behind ?

[VVTommyBoy]

I think some people clearly feel that they can't compete with the privates. The question isn't the number of teams but, which championship would the casual fan want to watch if it was head-to-head. I'm betting that more often than not the recruiters will be at the one with the best recruits and you are already telling them you can't compete with the best.

[cabezadecaballo]

Originally Posted by VVTommyBoy

I think some people clearly feel that they can't compete with the privates. The question isn't the number of teams but, which championship would the casual fan want to watch if it was head-to-head. I'm betting that more often than not the recruiters will be at the one with the best recruits and you are already telling them you can't compete with the best.

I think the days of getting people to bail on the argument by left-handedly attacking their huevos have been effectively ended by the "Tradition of Success" achieved by Our Lady of Ridiculous Sports Dominance and her sister institutions. Nice try, though, TommyBoy.....

So, today, the recruiters have Hudl. They show up and watch where there are the most combine-worthy player measureables fitting their positions of need.

As I said elsewhere, our new Competitive Balance measures do a lot to make things a more even competition at the lower levels, but there really is no place to push X or Iggy, is there ?

If it was strictly numbers-based, there is no current way to account for a middling-sized school like St Edward or maybe even LaSalle that is determined to achieve dominance. A football factory like Eds that can have a player like Crawford crossing a dozen school districts every morning on his way to school is another matter entirely.

[tcgobucks]

Uh, I don't quite understand the point of this post....if one school has 100 and another has 50, it's because only 50 boys wanted to play football.

It seems that some of you are suggesting that a D1 public school is limiting the amount of kids in their football program because of $$$. I doubt that that's the case......but I would be interested to hear from someone who can positively say that "XXXXXXXX High School limits their roster to 50 because of $$$". I just don't see that being the case.

[Wildcats1886]

Originally Posted by IgnatianAMDG

There was a North Royalton fan that hated Ignatius after that 2012 defeat. I don't think he ever realized that Ignatius lost that very next week to Mentor, who then lost to Whitmer, who then lost to Moeller.

I remember all the salt on here. That North Royalton team played a weak schedule and was simply not very good despite their strong record. Mentor or Whitmer (and probably a number of other good public school teams) would have waxed the floor with them just like Ignatius did.

[4GX]

Originally Posted by cabezadecaballo

Your thinking is illustrative of the problem. Are you Duke or Kentucky ?

Do you think there would 64 teams left in your "big dance" if the publics left you behind ?

The fact that there wouldn’t be 64 teams left in a “privates-only” Big Dance really matters not a whit— a good majority of the teams in the current Div. I tournament (e.g.- Fairfield, West Clermont, Milford, Gahanna Lincoln, etc.) have no business being in the tournament in the first place (and certainly not at the expense of a better team, like Elder, which proved on the field that they were considerably better than these pretenders).

The private Div. I schools would have an 8-team tournament, with everyone in— it would STILL be bigger than the tournament that the OHSAA held back when the tournament first was started (only one team from each region, from 3 divisions, got in— so only 12 total teams made the playoffs)— and all would know that the champion of that tournament was (almost certainly) the best team in the state... and the privates would be fine with that set of circumstances.

(By the way, the idea that the money from these games is enough to matter— AT ALL— is LUDICROUS— the money from attendance, parking, and concessions at athletic events [whether big public schools are involved, or NOT] is a drop in the bucket of the cost of operating an athletic program— let alone an entire school... and even if the revenues DID matter, the privates would STILL get the best of it— X has a stadium that can seat ~8000 fans, with room for another ~4000 standing room— and our biggest crowds are ALWAYS the games against Elder, LaSaller, Moeller... even Cathedral, a mid-size Catholic school from Indianapolis, brought more fans from INDY to see their relatively down [and overmatched] team play X here than Walnut Hills, the largest public HS in Cincinnati brought to X, from right nearby.)

The public school champ(s) would also get a lovely participation trophy— and within a year or two, the drumbeat of public school fans (led by the fans of whichever school won their championship) would grow, saying “we should have a matchup of the public school champ with the private school champ— “so we can find out who’s the best”— to which the private school champ would say “OK— whatever— if you want it, we’re fine with that.” It would be a bit like what happened in the Little League World Series when the US administrators (and fans) of Little League grew tired of the Japanese and the Taiwanese beating the pants off of the US-based teams— so they built two separate tournaments (with one for US teams and one for International teams), so there would always be at least one US team in the Little League World Series Final (who could then claim to be the “(US) Little League Champions”).

You (and other public school advocates) keep acting like you are really scaring the private schools, when you threaten to take your ball and go home— when, in reality, we couldn’t care less— DO IT, if you really want to! It doesn’t really matter— you won’t change what the private schools are doing one iota— except private schools will probably play an eight or nine game regular season schedule (if we also don’t play the public schools during the regular season), which will unfortunately involve more travel— but in reality, the season will be as it (historically) used to be and should be— start in September, and conclude before Thanksgiving— 8 or 9 regular season games, followed by (no more than) 3 playoff games— for an 11 or 12 game season (like teams had back in the early days of the OHSAA tournament— better for all (concussion risk considered) in football— and better for other sports, too— because football players won’t start practice until mid-August (and will stop infringing on baseball and family vacations in early August), and will be done before basketball and wrestling seasons start in December— EVERYBODY (at private schools) wins— no more pointless (playoff) scrimmages against Fairfield, etc.— just games that matter against GOOD teams with a chance of actually winning.

P.S.— and, as you might expect, I am Duke.

[SuperD1]

Originally Posted by treebranch45

St. X only dresses 6 JV players on Varsity the rest do not dress

I think there’s eight. Seven for sure depending on weather or not Carter went back up. The other 70 or so do not dress.

[WestSideBomber]

Originally Posted by SuperD1

I think there’s eight. Seven for sure depending on weather or not Carter went back up. The other 70 or so do not dress.

I think X should have all 300+ guys in the program dress and stand on the sideline just to piss people off.

[Stow78alum]

Originally Posted by GoGreenGo

Like I said the playing field is not a fair or level one. I pulled this from the most recent Colerain thread, since 2000, only four public schools have won the D1 State Title.

And interestingly a public never beat a private in the title game

[fantastic50]

Originally Posted by suplex21

I am not for capping rosters.
But, I recently went to a game in north carolina and was amazed that at a large high school there were only about 40 kids on each sideline. I made the comment to a gentleman next to me as I was surprised by the low numbers. His response was a puzzled face and he informed me this was just the varsity. If the kids play on JV they don't play Varsity. So the 40 kids were just the varsity players and they had another 40 on JV and another 40 on freshman.
If you think about it is basically how basketball, soccer, baseball, and softball are set up.
Just another interesting alternative.
I myself see no problem with the current situation, but I also wouldn't have a problem if the larger divisions went to this.

Yes, it has been long-standing practice in NC to have separate varsity and JV teams (and they often even practice separately). Relatively few schools have a freshman team.

NC has a rule, primarily for the small-school divisions, where a handful of sophomores (or even freshmen) from the JV team can dress for varsity games, but usually play only if there is an injury at their position. If they get on the field a certain number of times at the varsity level, then they become ineligible for further JV play.

Almost all NC schools have JV teams, as most of NC's "small" schools would be at D-IV or D-V in Ohio. However, in the event that a JV game (which would normally be played on Thursday night) is canceled, then all JV players become eligible for Friday night's varsity game.

[Wildcats1886]

Originally Posted by Stow78alum

And interestingly a public never beat a private in the title game

That is completely fabricated. The other thread referenced noted that it hasn't happened since 2000. It happened 3 years in a row in 96, 97, and 98. In fact, in both 97 and 98, McKinley knocked off private schools in consecutive weeks in the semi-finals and finals.

At least do a 30 second google search before spouting nonsense as facts.

[clarkgriswold]

We also need to set a limit on the kids in the band. Some of those bands are getting out of hand.

[Termite2]

Originally Posted by Wildcats1886

That is completely fabricated. The other thread referenced noted that it hasn't happened since 2000. It happened 3 years in a row in 96, 97, and 98. In fact, in both 97 and 98, McKinley knocked off private schools in consecutive weeks in the semi-finals and finals.

At least do a 30 second google search before spouting nonsense as facts.

1998; St Canton McKinley beat St. X; pretty sure that game was an example of divine intervention, definitely taught X humility

[IgnatianAMDG]

Originally Posted by Wildcats1886

That is completely fabricated. The other thread referenced noted that it hasn't happened since 2000. It happened 3 years in a row in 96, 97, and 98. In fact, in both 97 and 98, McKinley knocked off private schools in consecutive weeks in the semi-finals and finals.

At least do a 30 second google search before spouting nonsense as facts.

And again, public schools either eliminated private schools prior in the tournament, or beat other public schools that had eliminated private schools.

In 2009, Glenville eliminated #1 seed Ignatius, while HD knocked off Elder.
In 2012 & 2013, Mentor eliminated both Ignatius and Eds.

If a private school didn't make the final, then it's because they either 1) didn't make the playoffs or 2) were eliminated by a public school prior to reaching the finals. It's not hard to figure out, but some people on here are having trouble with it.

[ColerainWinsAgain]

Originally Posted by IgnatianAMDG

And again, public schools either eliminated private schools prior in the tournament, or beat other public schools that had eliminated private schools.

In 2009, Glenville eliminated #1 seed Ignatius, while HD knocked off Elder.
In 2012 & 2013, Mentor eliminated both Ignatius and Eds.

If a private school didn't make the final, then it's because they either 1) didn't make the playoffs or 2) were eliminated by a public school prior to reaching the finals. It's not hard to figure out, but some people on here are having trouble with it.

Sorry, that makes no sense, obviously if no private team made the final it means that none were in the tournament. Clearly if they were they would not have gotten beat.

[USA70PP]

Originally Posted by clarkgriswold

We also need to set a limit on the kids in the band. Some of those bands are getting out of hand.

In reality they need to set a minimum number in order to have a band. Some of those smaller ones don't really sound all that good.

[Friday night light]

Originally Posted by GoGreenGo

No I am not concerned how it appears to fans or for the opposing team for that matter.

I think its resources, if a private all boys school, who probably recruits, is able to dress 108 there is a strong likelihood that they will have more players to choose from during the game, as they probably should, it's an all-boys school that recruits.

In the case of a public school that dresses 50 let's say, probably only 35 or so play and are the core of the team.

My point is there should be a cap to level playing field. In the case of a large private school, if they have 70 contributors lets say, but are only able to dress 60 of them, this levels the playing field.

I haven't seem to many High School teams public or private go anywhere near 70 deep in a competitive ballgame so what difference would it make?? Every team plays no more than 30 guys in a varsity game as long as the score is close. Maybe a few more if you count special teams but not many.

[Pope Francis 1]

Originally Posted by GoGreenGo

Like I said the playing field is not a fair or level one. I pulled this from the most recent Colerain thread, since 2000, only four public schools have won the D1 State Title.

Year - Winner, Runner-up
2016 - Cincinnati St. Xavier 27, Cleveland St. Ignatius 20
2015 - Lakewood St. Edward 45, Huber Heights Wayne 35
2014 - Lakewood St. Edward 31, Huber Heights Wayne 21
2013 - Cincinnati Archbishop Moeller 55, Mentor 52
2012 - Cincinnati Archbishop Moeller 20, Toledo Whitmer 12
2011 - Cleveland St. Ignatius 34, Pickerington Central 13
2010 - Lakewood St. Edward 35, Huber Heights Wayne 28
2009 - Hilliard Davidson 16, Cleveland Glenville 15
2008 - Cleveland St. Ignatius 28, Cincinnati Elder 20
2007 - Cincinnati St. Xavier 27, Mentor 0
2006 - Hilliard Davidson 36, Mentor 35 (2OT)
2005 - Cincinnati St. Xavier 24, Massillon Washington 17
2004 - Cincinnati Colerain 50, Canton McKinley 10
2003 - Cincinnati Elder 31, Lakewood St. Edward 7
2002 - Cincinnati Elder 21, Warren Harding 19
2001 - Cleveland St. Ignatius 37, Cincinnati St. Xavier 6
2000 - Upper Arlington 15, Solon 9

....only 4 public schools have won D1.... and 5 other times public schools have come within a touchdown.... so why not go see what the successful public schools are doing and do the same....

[the_big_toe]

Originally Posted by GoGreenGo

In an era of decreased interest in football due to concussion fears and in an era of recruitment (cheating) by non-public schools (actually this has been going on for decades), is it time for the OHSAA to cap rosters at a number - say 50-60?

Just out of curiosity, since you mention recruiting and cheating, do you have any evidence to back up your assertions that this is going on? Or do you even have specific cases of this going on (and by this I mean, could you name a player on a non-public school's team that you think was recruited - whether you have evidence for it or not)?

Or is this just more of the "Waaaah!!! They win too much and MY favorite team NEVER goes very far in the playoffs! Waaaaah!" type of ... stuff ... we hear every year around this time?

[IgnatianAMDG]

Originally Posted by ColerainWinsAgain

Sorry, that makes no sense, obviously if no private team made the final it means that none were in the tournament. Clearly if they were they would not have gotten beat.

I mean, there are people who are trying to make the point that every public win since 2000 has been against another public in the finals as some kind of meaningful fact pointing towards inequality when it clearly is an non-naunced argument.

[LEONARD]

No! Why punish a school for having a larger participation rate amongst students?

Life is anything but fair.

And if X had the same standards for "dressing" kids as most public schools, they would literally have 3 hundred guys on their sidelines.

[ColerainWinsAgain]

Originally Posted by IgnatianAMDG

I mean, there are people who are trying to make the point that every public win since 2000 has been against another public in the finals as some kind of meaningful fact pointing towards inequality when it clearly is an non-naunced argument.

I was being sarcastic, I get the fact that the privates were beaten by publics to get there. In 2004 for example, Colerain beat Elder and Moeller en route to the title. Sorry if it came off as me being ignorant

[StateChampion2012]

Stupid Idea. We're a D6 School with 72 or so kids on the roster. Over half our conference has over 50 on the Roster.

[Wildcat97]

Originally Posted by Termite2

1998; St Canton McKinley beat St. X; pretty sure that game was an example of divine intervention, definitely taught X humility

1996, Lima beat my senior class. That one still burns 20 years later, especially the method that caused the winning drive

[SuperD1]

Originally Posted by WestSideBomber

I think X should have all 300+ guys in the program dress and stand on the sideline just to piss people off.

You and I, should have a beer sometime.
Classic.

[WestSideBomber]

Originally Posted by the_big_toe

Just out of curiosity, since you mention recruiting and cheating, do you have any evidence to back up your assertions that this is going on? Or do you even have specific cases of this going on (and by this I mean, could you name a player on a non-public school's team that you think was recruited - whether you have evidence for it or not)?

Or is this just more of the "Waaaah!!! They win too much and MY favorite team NEVER goes very far in the playoffs! Waaaaah!" type of ... stuff ... we hear every year around this time?

Here’s how some people think private schools “recruit”:
“Hey we saw you play in the city championship and we will need a QB. Come to our school and we’ll knock a few thousand off tuition”

Here’s how private schools actually “recruit”:
“hey come check out our open house and see if you like the school” and/or “hey we have a program where you can shadow a current student to see how a typical school day is here”.

Private schools have to “recruit” students to stay afloat. They don’t, however, “recruit” individual athletes.

[SuperD1]

Originally Posted by clarkgriswold

We also need to set a limit on the kids in the band. Some of those bands are getting out of hand.

Show me a band with 40 kids and I’ll show you a quality school and athletics program.

[SuperD1]

Originally Posted by Stow78alum

And interestingly a public never beat a private in the title game

Stow

Enjoy blasting Hudson as your de facto state title game every year. At least you’re not as arrogant. I’ll give you that.

[1_beast]

Originally Posted by simkon

Hamilton Westside clearly has the best little league program in the state probably followed by Canfield. Tallmadge had a great high school team this past year obviously.

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