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  #31  
Old 10-07-18, 06:16 PM
madman madman is offline
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Your response makes me sad.

It's not the picture that matters. It's what was occuring in the picture that matters. You don't earn the right to represent the United States in the Olympics by running a certain time. These professionals have made sacrifices for years that we'll never know about to put themselves in a position to wear the USA uniform. You can say all of that doesn't matter, but to them and most athletes that would be a pinnacle of an athletic career. No one but you and your mother is going to remember your PR. Being an Olympian is something you will always have and will always be in the recorded history of the sport.

These men were fighting to obtain the final qualifying spot for the 2008 Olympic team in the 800m. The time is completely irrelevant.



That's crap in your world?
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  #32  
Old 10-07-18, 10:42 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ccrunner609 View Post
That picture doesnt justify anything. Most of those professional races are crap. THey jog around for most laps then sprint the end. Not interested.


Really? I agree with madman this makes me sad. You didnít even know what it was a picture of and you were ready to denigrate it. Furthermore madman was making a point about what makes a race exciting for him.

Think about what happens at a meet when one kid starts gaining on another at the end of the race. The crowd noise jumps up. Even when they are 181 and 182 in the race. For my part, when I stop being excited by a good race I pray I have the wisdom to get out of coaching.
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  #33  
Old 10-08-18, 05:36 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I have never taken a stop watch to a CC meet. My dad used to, but he timed gaps and not race time. Even at the track, I've been coaching throws, so I have no need for a stop watch. However, at the District and Regional meets we sit and gauge if we are getting kids into the finals. We are a very experienced group and we can't tell just by looking if any race is faster than another without a watch. We can't watch 4 races and without a stop watch even guess with any accuracy where our kids are in that mix.

Again, Girls races are just as exciting as boys to watch and a very average boy beats a very outstanding girl by a lot. 5:00 1600 meter girl vs 5:00 1600 meter boy on the depth chart.

CC609 even admits that an 800m race at sub 1:50 is less exciting than a high school race that is nowhere near that fast.

I have watched my children many many many times. I can tell you with 100% accuracy that 1st place beats 5th place any day at any time and the memory of the races years later does not include a time stamp. The tactics and strategy of the races and how smart or gutsy they ran is what makes a race and a memory. That's what is getting lost in today's CC. Time Time Time. No tactics or strategies or teamwork. Woodridge is successful because of teamwork and tactics and strategies. The success of your team is more dependent on your 5th runner than your first. Pretty sure your 5th is slower than your 1st.
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  #34  
Old 10-08-18, 06:29 AM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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psycho dad I agree. I have never taken a watch to a XC meet. I also do not look at the watch in track except for JV meets. It is all about place that qualifies athletes. Just compete.

At the same time, our sport has a time component. I have JV boys that range from 17:00 to 33 minutes. They do need some motivation after not winning a JV race. Competing is a component. But when you get to the 19-25 minute guys you need to stress a variable and time seems to be one of the better variables for improvement.

Great debate and topic.

Variables when running
(1) winning
(2) qualifying
(3) improving and beating a place
(4) beating a competitor
(5) TIME
(6) finishing without walking
(7) finishing a race

I am sure there are more variables...
I believe this is why our sport is great. Everyone can be a winner but at the same time improve and get better. Everyone can run the same race and see how they stack up against everyone else.
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  #35  
Old 10-08-18, 07:42 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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My youngest son is obsessed with going under 18 min. It is a motivating factor for him. The issue is that it's course specific. We don't run the courses that allow him to do that at this time. He has run times on courses that if he ran at Tiffin or Gallion, he would have been sub 17:30.

The issue that cc609 brought up though is that he can't stand to watch a slow race. He said that watching a fast race is more enjoyable than a slow race, but I contend that if you take the clock out of it, you can't tell what pace or time they are running. At the Woodridge CVNP invite this year, I think the winning time was 16:55 ish. (for Boys Varsity) Just under 17. Horrible time right? No, not really on that course. You can't tell a 16:55 on Kendall Hills from a 14:55 at MMOC. You just can't do it by site. Michael Brajdic has the course record at 16:23 a few weeks later he set the all time record at Scioto Downs. 16:23 is flying on the Woodridge course. 19:07 is the girls record. Bridget Franek. An Olympian! How many girls in the history of the state could beat Bridget Franek head to head in a race? How many girls can beat 19:07 at Les Eisenhart on a good day. Top 5? Top 10?
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  #36  
Old 10-08-18, 12:50 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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I always take a watch to meets. For a variety of reasons. Starting with I need to have times for kids if the timing system does not work.

But largely I use my watch to get mile times. Looking at how fast my kids ran at the mile relative to their teammates gives me a good idea how well they ran, again relative to teammates. (Example, our top 6 this year is averaging about a 1:15 spread for 5K, and about a 20 second spread at the mile.) Mile marks are notoriously not precise, but looking at the time compared to their teammates makes this unimportant. If you are 10 seconds behind a teammate at 1609 meters you are probably going to be about 10 seconds behind at 1559 and 1659.

We do use times to evaluate our performance every week. One way is simply comparing how well we ran relative to common opponents. After the first meet or two, for every kid on my team I will find two or three athletes at a meet that they were close to previously and see how they did this week. If you lost to someone by 20 seconds one week and beat them by 10 the next, it might or might not mean you ran well. If you gained an average of 30 seconds on three opponents then you very likely ran well. I also adjust every time to a baseline, so that I can tell kids who a time at one course under one set of conditions compared to another performance at another course (or ever on the same course under different conditions). This weekend the temps were pretty brutal, so most kids were a lot slower than the two previous weeks, even though Eisenhart is generally fast. That hill can really take something out of you when it is high 80s and humid. I had one girl who ran a two second PR at 23:07. The week before she PRd at her first meet of the season because of an injury. She was happy with a PR but a little down that it wasn't faster. I pointed out that the average for our under 25:00 girls was 41 seconds slower than last week. She was 2 seconds faster. So her time actually showed that she had a really good race.

I have found that if you tell your kids "beat athletes from this team or these two teams" they will generally focus on that task. They will also be happy when they accomplish that. A few weeks ago I had a kid run a pretty mediocre race for her as far as time goes. But in the last 800 or so meters she caught three girls from Gahanna's top seven and four from Sprinboro's. Which vaulted us from well behind both to ahead of Gahanna and closer to Springboro. She was pumped about the place and didn't worry about the time.

As a coach, you need to find what motivates kids and use that. I do try to bend them toward more productive obsessions than just time, but if I am coaching someone like psychodad's son, I will use the time motivation if that is what works best.

Psychodad, as a swimmer my daughter only cared about time. That showed in her lack of enthusiasm for racing. For my son, his happiest race of all of last year was a 2:23 800 where they started him in lane one, told everyone to break after 1 turn and he was in last place and basically confused and jogging because the other seven guys in the race went out in 26 for the 200 and had a half turn of stagger advantage. With about 250 meters to go he realized the guys in front were dying. He ended up winning (it was the first HS varsity event win for him, and for anyone on his team last year, gotta love those five person track teams) and was bouncing off the walls happy even though he knew he could have run a faster race. He and his best friend, who got second in the shot put that meet, were super happy all the way home. And their coach said, were still enthusiastic the next day at practice.
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  #37  
Old 10-08-18, 02:39 PM
EuclidandViren EuclidandViren is offline
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Anyone else have kids look at their watch coming down the home stretch.
Or looking at the FINISHTIMING huge clock at the finish.

At the same time 3-4-5 guys are passing them.

I had a kid celebrate a couple of weeks ago, while we lost the meet by 3 points as runners passed him.
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  #38  
Old 10-08-18, 06:51 PM
mathking mathking is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EuclidandViren View Post
Anyone else have kids look at their watch coming down the home stretch.

God this drives me nuts. I have just told athletes not to wear their watches in a race.
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  #39  
Old 10-09-18, 03:10 AM
psycho_dad psycho_dad is offline
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I have worked many races and it's the races that have a clock at the finish line that are almost comical. Galion has kids almost running off the course looking at the clock and kids lose 10 places sometimes. I keep telling people I work with to do the meets that we need to have the FINISH banner 10 feet beyond the finish line and the clock either needs to be way at the back of the corral or needs to be facing away from the runners and only visible to the crowd. That way we don't have the big pile ups at the finish line and kids don't lose places looking at the clock. Put it beyond the finish line so they have to run to it to see it. Just another difference between when I ran and now. I never saw a finish line clock ever. Not at the State meet. Nowhere.
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