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  #1  
Old 05-08-19, 01:31 AM
Old Wildcat Old Wildcat is offline
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Game Changer manipulation

there are several teams that either dont use Game Changer correctly or are just flat out manipulating how they put in information to pad there players stats. One team we played has 3 kids hitting 500+ and just an example our book had a man on first and better hits an infield groundball the runner is forced at 2nd. But some how the hitter got a 1b. Another game having a rough day defensively our score keeper had us for 5 errors the opponents book had us with 2 errors. Now your thinking if a team wants to falsely pad there players stats whatever, but then when it comes to all league selections these padded stats can cost a legitimate player a spot on all league. I know no 2 bookkeepers can see it differently but to blatantly manipulate numbers is flat out cheating. Has anyone else noticed this. One team I've seen has very few fielders choices but many infield hits. Anyone else notice this practice going on? It's a shame a team lowers them selves to have to use these practices just to get there players absurd numbers.
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Old 05-08-19, 06:50 AM
yj_runfan yj_runfan is offline
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OK then.
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  #3  
Old 05-08-19, 06:59 AM
reggieDunlop reggieDunlop is offline
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I think that there are quite a few people keeping baseball stats (either on Game Changer or in a traditional scorebook) that fundamentally don't understand how to score a baseball game. I wouldn't call it "manipulation"... more like ignorance of the baseball scoring rules.
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Old 05-08-19, 07:13 AM
southpaw69 southpaw69 is offline
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Been happening since the beginning of time. I have heard college coaches won't pay attention to stats (other than HR's) for this very reason. Inflated numbers are the almost the norm. There are definitely some programs that keep legit stats but I feel there are more that don't than do.
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Old 05-08-19, 08:08 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Hmmm...to be fair, I have never part of a league selection committee, but don't the people who vote or have a say in who is all-league/county kind of just "know" who the studs are?

I highly doubt a kid who isn't very good and hits a bunch of weak infield grounders for singles or fielders choices is going to ever catch the attention of someone who votes for the best kids.

Also, to agree with someone else that posted, some could be lack of knowledge about how to actually keep a book, or stats, or maybe clicking errors requires more time, and coach wants to just watch the game and coach....

And to be fair, I have lied to my kid before, just a couple weeks ago actually (though not an official book). He absolutely scorched a ball, best hit he has ever had in his life (he is 12), almost went over the fence on a bigger field....he missed first base, got to 3rd, they appealed and he was out. He said, "is it still a triple?" and I told him yes. It isn't because it happened at 1st (if it was 2nd it would be considered a single and put out), but I was not about to take away the fact that he had a great hit and it didn't count because he missed the bag by an inch. Used it as a "great hit, but here is a teachable moment" situation.

My point is that sometimes a kid might hit a ball really hard, that a SS probably "should" make the play, the but the coach of the batter is thinking "he missed it b/c it was hit so hard" so gives his kid a single, where fielders coach thinks "damn, he should have had that" and marks an error.

Also, you give your side of it only...how do you know the team charging errors isn't intentionally trying to decrease another kids average for the benefit of their own kids? You are saying it only works one way
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Old 05-08-19, 08:17 AM
fortfan fortfan is offline
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I might give our players a bit of a break on some hits. If the defender had to run a long way to get a glove on the ball, I might give him a hit if the fielder drops that ball. Shortstop goes in the hole, catches it and makes a wild throw on what would have been a VERY close play at first-I'll give the kid a hit.


Funny story-years ago when we were not very good, a parent asked me if I gave a kid a hit on an obvious bad play by the SS. I said no and he laid into me saying I was the reason we didn't have any kids make all-league. (We had not won a league game in 3 years...) I just said we should worry about winning some games.....We've had plenty of all-league players now that we've won a few league games.
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  #7  
Old 05-08-19, 08:25 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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"Back in the day" our coach would scrub the book after games and if he made changes they would typically be taking hits away from players as the person who did the book was always more lenient.


Too many times, especially at the kids level, you get these parents who often times don't know as much as they think they do, running this game changer. I was asked this spring to do some of the games, and although I believe I would do a very good job, turned it down because there is no way I am going to sit there with my phone all game.

Game time = no phone time for myself.
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  #8  
Old 05-08-19, 08:35 AM
a_td a_td is offline
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Maybe more teams should "lock" the stats so only Admin can see.
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  #9  
Old 05-08-19, 08:52 AM
thePITman thePITman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggieDunlop View Post
I think that there are quite a few people keeping baseball stats (either on Game Changer or in a traditional scorebook) that fundamentally don't understand how to score a baseball game. I wouldn't call it "manipulation"... more like ignorance of the baseball scoring rules.
This.

Quote:
Originally Posted by southpaw69 View Post
Been happening since the beginning of time. I have heard college coaches won't pay attention to stats (other than HR's) for this very reason. Inflated numbers are the almost the norm. There are definitely some programs that keep legit stats but I feel there are more that don't than do.
And this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Wildcat View Post
I know no 2 bookkeepers can see it differently but to blatantly manipulate numbers is flat out cheating.
No, it's not cheating, since it does not give anybody an advantage to win the game.

As others have said, this has happened since the beginning of time and has nothing to do with GameChanger. In fact, if someone uses GameChanger correctly, it would keep more accurate stats. For instance, there is a Fielder's Choice option in GameChanger that would take care of scoring the play for you, whereas if someone were in a scorebook, it's up to him/her to know exactly how to score it.
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  #10  
Old 05-08-19, 09:06 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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In youth sports, the people involved who are concerned about stats are the people who are involved for the wrong reasons.
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  #11  
Old 05-08-19, 09:13 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Also, if scoring a book was so easy, MLB would not need an "official scorer" job.

By the way, how does one get that job anyways? Seems like it would be something I would be good at!
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  #12  
Old 05-08-19, 09:15 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
Also, if scoring a book was so easy, MLB would not need an "official scorer" job.

By the way, how does one get that job anyways? Seems like it would be something I would be good at!
It really isn't that difficult. The issue is just a play here and there. When I coached if there was a question then the three of us coaches would be polled and 2/3 vote stood, but that didn't happen every game.

As for an official scorer in MLB, now THAT would be the gig to have!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  #13  
Old 05-08-19, 10:24 AM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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Counting a fielder's choice as a hit is the one mistake that's most obvious to me.

I hope teams aren't using the stats coming out of Game Changer as their "official" stats.
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  #14  
Old 05-08-19, 10:35 AM
southpaw69 southpaw69 is offline
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1st and 3rd situation. Batter hits into a 4-6-3 DP. Run scored. By rule that is not an RBI. I would be willing to bet that most would give an RBI.
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  #15  
Old 05-08-19, 10:49 AM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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It’s still happening in MLB with hits vs errors. I always like when teams would only pitch their ace vs bad teams during the regular season to keep his ERA low
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  #16  
Old 05-08-19, 10:51 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
Counting a fielder's choice as a hit is the one mistake that's most obvious to me.

I hope teams aren't using the stats coming out of Game Changer as their "official" stats.
That just leaves me speechless.

Maybe it is because I have been around ball all my life, but that is something you learn at a very early age.
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  #17  
Old 05-08-19, 10:52 AM
reggieDunlop reggieDunlop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southpaw69 View Post
1st and 3rd situation. Batter hits into a 4-6-3 DP. Run scored. By rule that is not an RBI. I would be willing to bet that most would give an RBI.
Here is another one which most scorers will mess up:

Pitcher A walks a batter. Pitcher B then comes into the game. First batter hits into a force out, runner out at second batter safe at first. Next batter triples scoring the runner from first.

Which pitcher is credited with the run? Hint: It's not pitcher B.
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  #18  
Old 05-08-19, 10:54 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raider6309 View Post
Itís still happening in MLB with hits vs errors. I always like when teams would only pitch their ace vs bad teams during the regular season to keep his ERA low
I wouldn't say I have done this, but there were times I didn't throw my ace in a game against a very good team.

Wasn't to keep his ERA down at all. It was because I knew even with the ACE we likely weren't going to win, so I threw him against other teams that I knew we had a better shot at.
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  #19  
Old 05-08-19, 11:51 AM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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I think stats make the game fun for kids. Stats have a special relationship with baseball, since its really an individual game wrapped up in a group outcome.
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  #20  
Old 05-08-19, 11:55 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggieDunlop View Post
Here is another one which most scorers will mess up:

Pitcher A walks a batter. Pitcher B then comes into the game. First batter hits into a force out, runner out at second batter safe at first. Next batter triples scoring the runner from first.

Which pitcher is credited with the run? Hint: It's not pitcher B.
Interesting; I wouldn't say I "knew" this was a rule/policy, but it makes sense. I am sure the rationale behind it is that if pitcher A had not walked the first batter, then the fielders choice (which assumes fielder could have made either out and chose the other runner) would have resulted in the second batter being out. Therefore, it is essentially the same as a strikeout of 2nd batter, an out was made, but that runner is still there.
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  #21  
Old 05-08-19, 11:58 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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I just read a pretty in-depth article about official scoring, and official scorers in MLB (and minors) have to deliver their report/analysis to each coach after the game. In the event one coach wishes to challenge a ruling, if the other coach agrees, it is automatically changed. Interesting, but makes sense, since one of the two is going to be "hurt" statistically, so if the team whose changes impacts negatively is fine with it, it makes sense it will be changed.
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  #22  
Old 05-08-19, 12:52 PM
Lightning2 Lightning2 is offline
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Sooooo a kid has a few more hits in the book than he should. The point is? Last I checked, a kids batting average in gamechanger has no outcome on the game. We dont tell the kids their stats. Tell the kids (or yourselves as it sometimes is hard to tell which cares more) to worry less about stats and more about wins and how you helped your team.
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  #23  
Old 05-08-19, 01:01 PM
Mackinbiner Mackinbiner is offline
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I wonder if maybe the official scorebook is kept in the dugout or press box and a fan or player parent is keeping the updates on Game Changer for anyone not there.

Either way, it's great to be able to follow along to multiple games. Thank you.
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Old 05-08-19, 01:15 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
I wonder if maybe the official scorebook is kept in the dugout or press box and a fan or player parent is keeping the updates on Game Changer for anyone not there.

Either way, it's great to be able to follow along to multiple games. Thank you.
FOr youth games, very often I would say the GC is done by a parent. No doubt about that.

Not that it necessarily is a bad thing, but I have seen a mom do the GC before, and also it get passed from one parent to another from game to game, or even in game so the consistency can be garbage.


I wouldn't use those numbers as the stats, no way. I am a numbers guy and love doing them myself manually. I would have additional stats for the pitchers/catchers and I focused on 1st pitch strike % and how it correlated with them getting on base to put more awareness on the pitcher/catcher as the best pitch in baseball is....a first pitch strike and you don't need to be too cute with that pitch.
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Old 05-08-19, 01:24 PM
thePITman thePITman is offline
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Real life example: I coach a 14U team. My normal GameChanger person is an assistant coach whose son has played travel ball for a while and knows (1) how to use GameChanger and (2) how to legitimately score a hit vs error. He was gone for one game, and I had another parent volunteer to fill in but admittedly didn't know what he was doing. His son, who hadn't had a hit all season, grounded into a fielder's choice. The dad didn't know how to score it (or didn't know it was called "Fielder's Choice," which appears in the menu), so he scored it a single with the runner out advancing to the next base. I caught it after the game and fixed it (unfortunately, his son no longer had his first hit of the season). However, his son has since gotten his first hit, so all is good in the world!

It's not always malicious or purposeful. Sometimes it's hard enough for teams such as mine (14U) or even Freshman/JV teams to have enough coaches for for first base and 3rd base, let alone a 3rd coach or knowledgeable person to keep book. So you'll take any volunteer parent that's willing to chip in. It's not cheating. It's just facts of life.
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Old 05-08-19, 01:29 PM
southpaw69 southpaw69 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning2 View Post
Sooooo a kid has a few more hits in the book than he should. The point is? Last I checked, a kids batting average in gamechanger has no outcome on the game. We dont tell the kids their stats. Tell the kids (or yourselves as it sometimes is hard to tell which cares more) to worry less about stats and more about wins and how you helped your team.
It absolutely matters when selecting All Conference, Area, Region and State teams. As well as team awards (BA, FP, etc.)
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Old 05-08-19, 01:48 PM
Baseballfan20 Baseballfan20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southpaw69 View Post
It absolutely matters when selecting All Conference, Area, Region and State teams. As well as team awards (BA, FP, etc.)
I agree it matters but if your coach gets a reputation of padding stats then look out the other coaches know and will not vote for their kids.

It does suck for kids that are on the edge of making an all area or state team and inflated numbers win out. In the end, I hope the kid that got all state bc of inflated numbers has a great time telling everyone at the local bar for years to come. Bigger and better things in life.
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  #28  
Old 05-09-19, 03:17 PM
a_td a_td is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackinbiner View Post
I wonder if maybe the official scorebook is kept in the dugout or press box and a fan or player parent is keeping the updates on Game Changer for anyone not there.

Either way, it's great to be able to follow along to multiple games. Thank you.
That's the way we do it. We have an official scorer doing book and GC coach with him to match the official ruling.
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  #29  
Old 05-09-19, 04:27 PM
cabezadecaballo cabezadecaballo is offline
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It's a great thing, especially if you have boys playing in different summer tournaments, but I know our kids do ours in HS ball. Some of ours don't seem to know a sac bunt from a ground out, or a FC from a single.

Our coach keeps his own book.

It seems a bit silly to get all wound over somebody else's inflated stats. i realize a lot of it's exported to MaxPreps, but any college coach is gonna put eyes on kids, not recruit from GC or MaxPreps.

Last edited by cabezadecaballo; 05-09-19 at 04:59 PM.
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  #30  
Old 05-09-19, 04:41 PM
Yappi Yappi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thePITman View Post
It's not always malicious or purposeful. Sometimes it's hard enough for teams such as mine (14U) or even Freshman/JV teams to have enough coaches for for first base and 3rd base, let alone a 3rd coach or knowledgeable person to keep book. So you'll take any volunteer parent that's willing to chip in. It's not cheating. It's just facts of life.
Definitely not always malicious or purposeful. I've watched plenty of times where a player gets an obvious "hit" when a runner is forced out at the next base because an outfielder came up with it quickly.

Another example that is routinely scored wrong is a fielder's choice that doesn't result in an out. When a first baseman throws late to home with the bases loaded, it is a FC when he could have stepped on first and gotten the out by 10 steps.

Also, a bunt that scores a game winning run is usually a Sacrifice instead of a hit. If the batter/runner would have been out on a play at First but the defense went home with the ball to prevent the winning run, it is a Sacrifice. Great job by the hitter but it is not a hit. Plenty of times saw a reporter talking about a game winning "hit" on a sacrifice bunt.
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