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  #721  
Old 05-01-19, 11:44 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reggieDunlop View Post
I can see all sorts of wiggle room with that phrase "permit a pitched ball to hit him". Is there any case book guidance?

Two Case Book Plays... The second one would be the closest to your situation. (don't forget, the final judgment isn't yours, it's the umpire's)

7.3.4 SITUATION C: B1 is at bat with a three-ball, no strike count. The batter rolls his elbow into the strike zone and a) the pitch hits B1 in the shoulder and would have been a ball; or b) the pitch hits the batter in the elbow and was in the strike zone. In both cases, the batter made no other movement.

RULING: In a), B1 is awarded first base as it was ball four, and in b), B1 is charged with a strike, and remains at bat with a 3 ball, 1 strike count.


7.3.4 SITUATION D: B1 is at bat with a two-ball, no strike count. The batter is fooled by the pitch and did not permit the ball to hit him. The pitch hits B1 in the shoulder. The batter made no other movement.

RULING: B1 is awarded first base.
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  #722  
Old 05-06-19, 09:18 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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So I have chimed in on a few of these, and I am an OHSAA certified umpire, but I have a question for AllSports12 (and/or anyone else).

What do you do when an umpire is, one, completely wrong about a rule, two, emphatically yells AND demonstrates why they are right but are actually wrong, and three, is ready to throw someone out over said incorrect ruling, despite being wrong?

Here is the situation and what happened:

My son's 12U team was playing on Saturday. My son is catcher, and he is pretty good. (He has thrown out several kids stealing this year) . I played catcher in D1 college, Kent State, so I know catching and have taught him the right things to do.

Kid was on 2nd base, no other runners on, right handed batter up to bat. Kid on 2nd tries to steal 3rd on the pitch.

Pitch is not swung at, my son catches it and takes the appropriate hop steps to the side, behind the batter, and the batter backs up about three steps, standing a full foot or two outside the batters box, and my son hitches his throw and then lobs it over the batters head to third, kid steals third easily.

I, who am sitting in the dugout b/c I help the team and it was raining, and the head coach, yell for batters interference.

The umpire first says, "he is allowed to be in the box!!" (correct statement but he wasn't in the box and it wasn't close)

The head coach goes over and says (correctly) "the batter isn't in the box, that's our point!"

The umpire then says "its a judgement call" (this part is technically correct)

The coach reiterates that the batter backed up out of the box and got in the way of the catcher making a play.

The umpire at this point is hot, and emphatically demonstrates for all to witness, and yelling his thoughts, that the catcher can run forward (back towards home plate) to make the throw, and demonstrates by running towards home and making a throwing motion to third.

The head coach is now hot too, and yells at him "do not teach my player to do something they should never do" and "it is the batters responsibility to avoid the catcher"

The umpire then demonstrates, and says aloud, "when a runner is coming home, the batter has to back up out of the way", to which the coach says "but there was no runner coming home, the play was going to third"

The umpire yelled "one more word and you are gone", and that was the end of it.

When the inning ended, I told my son to never alter his throw again, because it leaves it up to the umpire to judge if he had to alter his throw (feeding off the whole, contact is not necessary to be interference or obstruction but it helps) and to next time, throw through the batter and force the call.

But I digress; what do you do? Try to get his name to report him? He was wearing his OHSAA uniform (a no no in a non-HS event anyways) and happily shared during pre-game that he does HS and some college.

That reminds me, prior to the "you will be gone" comment, our coach said something about "what college catcher or HS catcher have you ever seen do that?" when he demonstrated the running forward to avoid the batter backing up out of the box
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  #723  
Old 05-06-19, 09:22 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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I went to my car to get my rulebook and casebook, but they were at home. Can you point to a specific ruling about batters interference? I have read it cover to cover a few times, but don't recall a specific point about a batter backing up out of the box. I know it talks about follow through interference on the swing, but don't recall specifically addressing backing up out of the box
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  #724  
Old 05-06-19, 11:14 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Here's your rule reference

Rule 7-3-5 BATTING INFEACTIONS -- A BATTER SHALL NOT:

ART. 5 . . . Interfere with the catcher's fielding or throwing by:

a. leaning over home plate,

b. stepping out of the batter's box,

c. making any other movement, including follow-through interference, which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher's attempt to play on a runner, or

d. failing to make a reasonable effort to vacate a congested area when there is a throw to home plate and there is time for the batter to move away.

PENALTY: When there are two outs, the batter is out. When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to home plate, if the runner is tagged out, the ball remains live and interference is ignored. Otherwise, the ball is dead and the runner is called out. When an attempt to put out a runner at any other base is unsuccessful, the batter is out and all runners must return to bases occupied at the time of the pitch. If the pitch is a third strike and in the umpire's judgment interference prevents a possible double play (additional outs), two may be ruled out (8-4-2g).



And your Case Book reference that shows that it's a judgment call....


7.3.5 SITUATION E:

With less than two outs, R2 on second and B2 at the plate, R2 attempts to steal third. In the process, B2, who bats right-handed, after swinging or not swinging at the pitch (a) makes no attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third or (b) is unable to make an attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third. As a result, F2 cannot make a play on the runner. Is B2 out, and must R2 return to second?

RULING: B2 is not guilty of interference in (a) or (b). B2 is entitled to his position in the batter's box and is not subject to being penalized for interference unless he moves or re-establishes his position after F2 has received the pitch, which then prevents F2 from attempting to play on a runner. Failing to move so F2 can make a throw is not batter interference.


Now, if the umpire cites a rule incorrectly, you have a situation where a protest may be in order (depending on whether or not protests of umpire decisions are permitted). If so, calmly file the protest and resume the game. If no protest provisions are permitted, you have to chalk this up to being a 12yr old game being worked by someone who doesn't possess the proper skills, both rule wise and demeanor wise, to properly work the game. Use it as a teaching moment for the kids (life isn't fair) and move on.

Deal with the other noise (uniform, demeanor, and lack of professionalism) in an appropriate manner after the game with the powers that be.

Please do not retrieve a rule book or case book and bring it onto the field during or after the discussion.... that will get you an early exit each and every time.
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  #725  
Old 05-06-19, 11:31 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Here's your rule reference

Rule 7-3-5 BATTING INFEACTIONS -- A BATTER SHALL NOT:

ART. 5 . . . Interfere with the catcher's fielding or throwing by:

a. leaning over home plate,

b. stepping out of the batter's box,

c. making any other movement, including follow-through interference, which hinders actions at home plate or the catcher's attempt to play on a runner, or

d. failing to make a reasonable effort to vacate a congested area when there is a throw to home plate and there is time for the batter to move away.

PENALTY: When there are two outs, the batter is out. When there are not two outs and the runner is advancing to home plate, if the runner is tagged out, the ball remains live and interference is ignored. Otherwise, the ball is dead and the runner is called out. When an attempt to put out a runner at any other base is unsuccessful, the batter is out and all runners must return to bases occupied at the time of the pitch. If the pitch is a third strike and in the umpire's judgment interference prevents a possible double play (additional outs), two may be ruled out (8-4-2g).



And your Case Book reference that shows that it's a judgment call....


7.3.5 SITUATION E:

With less than two outs, R2 on second and B2 at the plate, R2 attempts to steal third. In the process, B2, who bats right-handed, after swinging or not swinging at the pitch (a) makes no attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third or (b) is unable to make an attempt to get out of the way of F2 throwing to third. As a result, F2 cannot make a play on the runner. Is B2 out, and must R2 return to second?

RULING: B2 is not guilty of interference in (a) or (b). B2 is entitled to his position in the batter's box and is not subject to being penalized for interference unless he moves or re-establishes his position after F2 has received the pitch, which then prevents F2 from attempting to play on a runner. Failing to move so F2 can make a throw is not batter interference.


Now, if the umpire cites a rule incorrectly, you have a situation where a protest may be in order (depending on whether or not protests of umpire decisions are permitted). If so, calmly file the protest and resume the game. If no protest provisions are permitted, you have to chalk this up to being a 12yr old game being worked by someone who doesn't possess the proper skills, both rule wise and demeanor wise, to properly work the game. Use it as a teaching moment for the kids (life isn't fair) and move on.

Deal with the other noise (uniform, demeanor, and lack of professionalism) in an appropriate manner after the game with the powers that be.

Please do not retrieve a rule book or case book and bring it onto the field during or after the discussion.... that will get you an early exit each and every time.
Thanks for the thorough response. Again, he is an OHSAA umpire and apparently college too, so while I do not claim to be a master of every rule and situation, this one is basic to me...I can understand some weird situation occurring that results in being unsure, some obscure thing you rarely see, but goodness....

I have told my son numerous times that umpires, especially at his level, will have inconsistent strike zones, miss calls, etc. I have a motto when I umpire and what I generally expect of others....it is human to miss something that did happen but it is impossible to see something that never did. So for example, if a batted ball passes close by a runner but literally doesn't touch them, it is impossible for an umpire to "see" it hit them, at best they are unsure, and I can't make that call if I am not sure.

Same thing here...I am fine with him missing the interference. I would have told my son, "next time don't adjust, just make your throw and if you hit him (the batter), the umpire likely can not avoid making a call".

But to claim and defend an incorrect rule, to me, is inexcuseable. I misapplied a rule in my first year as an OHSAA umpire, I was doing a solo game, made a call, coach questioned me about it, I realized I was wrong, told him, "I am sorry, I missed that one, won't happen again" and he was fine with that (as I would be if I was the coach).

I am fine with 12U umpires not being perfect, nobody is, but don't ACT like you are. So if any umps or future umps are reading this, hopefully it will help you be a better umpire.
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  #726  
Old 05-06-19, 01:17 PM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Experience has shown me that once an official, whether he be a partner or working a game you are coaching, gives you an unsolicited "I'm a college official" line..... It's gonna be a long day.... and your situation proves it.
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  #727  
Old 05-06-19, 09:09 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
So I have chimed in on a few of these, and I am an OHSAA certified umpire, but I have a question for AllSports12 (and/or anyone else).

What do you do when an umpire is, one, completely wrong about a rule, two, emphatically yells AND demonstrates why they are right but are actually wrong, and three, is ready to throw someone out over said incorrect ruling, despite being wrong?

Here is the situation and what happened:

My son's 12U team was playing on Saturday. My son is catcher, and he is pretty good. (He has thrown out several kids stealing this year) . I played catcher in D1 college, Kent State, so I know catching and have taught him the right things to do.

Kid was on 2nd base, no other runners on, right handed batter up to bat. Kid on 2nd tries to steal 3rd on the pitch.

Pitch is not swung at, my son catches it and takes the appropriate hop steps to the side, behind the batter, and the batter backs up about three steps, standing a full foot or two outside the batters box, and my son hitches his throw and then lobs it over the batters head to third, kid steals third easily.

I, who am sitting in the dugout b/c I help the team and it was raining, and the head coach, yell for batters interference.

The umpire first says, "he is allowed to be in the box!!" (correct statement but he wasn't in the box and it wasn't close)

The head coach goes over and says (correctly) "the batter isn't in the box, that's our point!"

The umpire then says "its a judgement call" (this part is technically correct)

The coach reiterates that the batter backed up out of the box and got in the way of the catcher making a play.

The umpire at this point is hot, and emphatically demonstrates for all to witness, and yelling his thoughts, that the catcher can run forward (back towards home plate) to make the throw, and demonstrates by running towards home and making a throwing motion to third.

The head coach is now hot too, and yells at him "do not teach my player to do something they should never do" and "it is the batters responsibility to avoid the catcher"

The umpire then demonstrates, and says aloud, "when a runner is coming home, the batter has to back up out of the way", to which the coach says "but there was no runner coming home, the play was going to third"

The umpire yelled "one more word and you are gone", and that was the end of it.

When the inning ended, I told my son to never alter his throw again, because it leaves it up to the umpire to judge if he had to alter his throw (feeding off the whole, contact is not necessary to be interference or obstruction but it helps) and to next time, throw through the batter and force the call.

But I digress; what do you do? Try to get his name to report him? He was wearing his OHSAA uniform (a no no in a non-HS event anyways) and happily shared during pre-game that he does HS and some college.

That reminds me, prior to the "you will be gone" comment, our coach said something about "what college catcher or HS catcher have you ever seen do that?" when he demonstrated the running forward to avoid the batter backing up out of the box

That is the most important thing to take from this.

Coaches, and parents, going overboard at a 12U game, even when the umpire is 100% wrong, is never a good look.

You get bad umps often times at that level, see it pretty much every week.

Best course of action is to calmly ask the ump, if (when) he is wrong and wont ask for help the best is to accept it and then use it as a teaching moment for the team after the game as to how the umpire got it wrong.
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  #728  
Old 05-11-19, 11:09 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Runner on second.
Umpire is behind the pitcher on the SS side of second.

Ground ball to SS. Throws to first. Base umpire calls him Out.
Runner on second advances to third on the throw.

HP umpire rules OUT at third, base umpire says safe (almost simultaneously).

WHo is SUPPOSED to make the call?
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  #729  
Old 05-12-19, 06:06 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
Runner on second.
Umpire is behind the pitcher on the SS side of second.

Ground ball to SS. Throws to first. Base umpire calls him Out.
Runner on second advances to third on the throw.

HP umpire rules OUT at third, base umpire says safe (almost simultaneously).

WHo is SUPPOSED to make the call?
This is what happens when umpires don't adhere to proper mechanics.

The Base Umpire has every call on the bags on a ball hit to the infield. He is supposed to make his way into what is called the "Working Area" in order to have the best angle to make a call at any base with the least amount of movement. (doesn't mean he isn't moving)

There should be a discussion between the two after this play with the Base Umpire and the Plate Umpire gathering the Head Coach of the defensive team acknowledging the screw up and the decision to stay with the Base Umpire's call.
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  #730  
Old 05-12-19, 04:03 PM
Zunardo Zunardo is offline
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Followup mechanics question. On a 3-umpire crew, with bases loaded and no outs, how do the two base umps determine who has which base on the initial play?
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  #731  
Old 05-12-19, 04:08 PM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Assuming no rotation, plate ump (U1) has home, first base (U2) has first, and third (U3) has second and third.
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  #732  
Old 05-13-19, 07:08 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Assuming no rotation, plate ump (U1) has home, first base (U2) has first, and third (U3) has second and third.
Good grief!

There had better not be any rotation on this play.
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  #733  
Old 05-13-19, 09:35 AM
bb9 bb9 is offline
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Originally Posted by AllSports12 View Post
Good grief!

There had better not be any rotation on this play.
Only thing I can think of is fly ball to RF. U2 goes out and U3 has all bases.
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  #734  
Old 05-13-19, 09:51 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by bb9 View Post
Only thing I can think of is fly ball to RF. U2 goes out and U3 has all bases.
The discussion is about a ground ball hit to the short stop....

There is no rotation
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  #735  
Old 05-13-19, 11:25 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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@Allsports....do you know of a quality site/link that would direct me to 3-man mechanics? I worked with a group of mostly collegiate umpires this past Summer and will work with them again this Summer doing tournaments. I just found out the championship games will be worked as 3 man.

The OHSAA "blue book" only covers 2 man mechanics but your last post indicates your familiarity with 3 man, so was wondering if you knew of a quality place to get the info so I can study up?

Thanks
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  #736  
Old 05-13-19, 11:31 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
@Allsports....do you know of a quality site/link that would direct me to 3-man mechanics? I worked with a group of mostly collegiate umpires this past Summer and will work with them again this Summer doing tournaments. I just found out the championship games will be worked as 3 man.

The OHSAA "blue book" only covers 2 man mechanics but your last post indicates your familiarity with 3 man, so was wondering if you knew of a quality place to get the info so I can study up?

Thanks
2019-2020 NFHS Baseball Umpires Manual

Access it through the FED app on a smart phone or order a hard copy of it from the FED.

If you don't have a hard copy or can't get access through an app, it can be accessed through The Arbiter. Click on the "Switch Views" tab then choose NFHS. Go to publications and click on Baseball Publications. You'll see the Rule, Case Book and Umpires Manual to click on.
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  #737  
Old 05-14-19, 01:42 PM
reggieDunlop reggieDunlop is online now
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Another question that pops up quite a bit... When a batter over-runs first base, under what conditions can he be put out for making a move towards second base? Is simply turning left enough?
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  #738  
Old 05-14-19, 01:46 PM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Originally Posted by reggieDunlop View Post
Another question that pops up quite a bit... When a batter over-runs first base, under what conditions can he be put out for making a move towards second base? Is simply turning left enough?
While this is technically a judgment call by the umpire, the simple answer to your question is no, turning to the left is not sufficient to call the batter-runner out. They must "make an attempt to advance towards 2nd base", what I would deem a "purposeful step".

If they see a ball overthrown, take a forceful pivot step towards 2nd and change their mind, they are subject to be tagged out. If they are just slowing down and turn to the left and trot back to 1st base, they never made an attempt towards 2nd base and are fine.
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  #739  
Old 05-16-19, 01:30 PM
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Situation: Runner on 1B attempts to steal 2B and gets caught in a pickle. 1B throws to 2B which chases then throws to 1B again who chases and throws to SS who chases and throws to P who has taken over 1B.

P catches the ball and takes a step towards the runner who doesn't turn around but charges right at the P. The runner takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground.

Field Umpire called the runner out. He made no attempt to slide or avoid the tag. This begins an argument over who had the right of way (was the P blocking 1B?) and unnecessary physical contact (should the runner had slid into 1B?).

The runner leaves the field of play and goes back to his dugout. Coaches and parents yell for him to go back to 1B. The other team coaches yells at his team to tag the runner again. Benny Hill music erupts as these two players run around the infield. Home Umpire gets involved and calls the runner out and tells him to leave the field. He also calls coaches over with Field Ump and gets the game back on track.

First question - Trying to score the game, I went with Out due to Runner's Interference. Is this the correct call?

Second question - Should the runner had slid into 1B once he saw the P with the ball at 1B?
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  #740  
Old 05-16-19, 01:41 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Situation: Runner on 1B attempts to steal 2B and gets caught in a pickle. 1B throws to 2B which chases then throws to 1B again who chases and throws to SS who chases and throws to P who has taken over 1B.

P catches the ball and takes a step towards the runner who doesn't turn around but charges right at the P. The runner takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground.

Field Umpire called the runner out. He made no attempt to slide or avoid the tag. This begins an argument over who had the right of way (was the P blocking 1B?) and unnecessary physical contact (should the runner had slid into 1B?).

The runner leaves the field of play and goes back to his dugout. Coaches and parents yell for him to go back to 1B. The other team coaches yells at his team to tag the runner again. Benny Hill music erupts as these two players run around the infield. Home Umpire gets involved and calls the runner out and tells him to leave the field. He also calls coaches over with Field Ump and gets the game back on track.

First question - Trying to score the game, I went with Out due to Runner's Interference. Is this the correct call?

Second question - Should the runner had slid into 1B once he saw the P with the ball at 1B?
If the P had the ball then he has every right to be standing in the base path to make the tag. What should the runner have done? Avoid contact. Slide. Or start running to second to continue the rundown.
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  #741  
Old 05-16-19, 02:11 PM
Peak Peak is offline
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Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
If the P had the ball then he has every right to be standing in the base path to make the tag. What should the runner have done? Avoid contact. Slide. Or start running to second to continue the rundown.
This is what a lot of us watching were saying, but we had a few "parent/coaches" that argued the runner had a right to the basepath and the P interfered by blocking the basepath. I was surprised to hear/see this at a 13U game. I thought the need to slide into the base was a well known process.
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  #742  
Old 05-16-19, 03:10 PM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Originally Posted by Peak View Post
This is what a lot of us watching were saying, but we had a few "parent/coaches" that argued the runner had a right to the basepath and the P interfered by blocking the basepath. I was surprised to hear/see this at a 13U game. I thought the need to slide into the base was a well known process.
If the fielder does not have the ball, and the baserunner runs into him then you will get the next base but once he has the ball then yes, he can hold his ground and make the tag.

Generally, it is "avoid contact" and not necessarily have to slide. Years ago I had seen some tourney's/leagues go with a MANDATORY slide if there is any sort of play but that honestly could lead to more injuries so that is why it mostly is now just avoid contact.


In the case you brought up, it almost could end up in the palyer getting tossed from the games.


Parents/coaches being wrong at youth games? That must have been a first!
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  #743  
Old 05-16-19, 04:35 PM
bucksman bucksman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Situation: Runner on 1B attempts to steal 2B and gets caught in a pickle. 1B throws to 2B which chases then throws to 1B again who chases and throws to SS who chases and throws to P who has taken over 1B.

P catches the ball and takes a step towards the runner who doesn't turn around but charges right at the P. The runner takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground.

Field Umpire called the runner out. He made no attempt to slide or avoid the tag. This begins an argument over who had the right of way (was the P blocking 1B?) and unnecessary physical contact (should the runner had slid into 1B?).

The runner leaves the field of play and goes back to his dugout. Coaches and parents yell for him to go back to 1B. The other team coaches yells at his team to tag the runner again. Benny Hill music erupts as these two players run around the infield. Home Umpire gets involved and calls the runner out and tells him to leave the field. He also calls coaches over with Field Ump and gets the game back on track.

First question - Trying to score the game, I went with Out due to Runner's Interference. Is this the correct call?

Second question - Should the runner had slid into 1B once he saw the P with the ball at 1B?
To keep this simple, the defensive player has the ball, so he has the right to be where he is. The offensive player must slide (legally), give up, avoid contact, et al. By rule, this should be called an OUT for interference by the offensive player ... and if the contact was judged to be malicious, the player should be ejected.
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  #744  
Old 05-17-19, 05:44 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Situation: Runner on 1B attempts to steal 2B and gets caught in a pickle. 1B throws to 2B which chases then throws to 1B again who chases and throws to SS who chases and throws to P who has taken over 1B.

P catches the ball and takes a step towards the runner who doesn't turn around but charges right at the P. The runner takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground.

Field Umpire called the runner out. He made no attempt to slide or avoid the tag. This begins an argument over who had the right of way (was the P blocking 1B?) and unnecessary physical contact (should the runner had slid into 1B?).

The runner leaves the field of play and goes back to his dugout. Coaches and parents yell for him to go back to 1B. The other team coaches yells at his team to tag the runner again. Benny Hill music erupts as these two players run around the infield. Home Umpire gets involved and calls the runner out and tells him to leave the field. He also calls coaches over with Field Ump and gets the game back on track.

First question - Trying to score the game, I went with Out due to Runner's Interference. Is this the correct call?

Second question - Should the runner had slid into 1B once he saw the P with the ball at 1B?
First, do you have a video of this sequence? As AllStar likes to point out, one person's description isn't always exact or what the umpires saw....I also ask b/c you are very specific, the pitcher took one step toward runner, runner took 3 steps....in the back and forth of a rundown, I am guessing you weren't counting their steps....so if there is a video, it would help if you gave a link to it.

That said, based on your description of the events in question, I would have called the runner out and thrown him out of the game.

Here is the kicker that no one has mentioned yet....Even if the pitcher didn't have the ball, I would have called him out and thrown him from the game (again, based on your description). While true that the pitcher can't block the path back to the base without possession of the ball, malicious contact supercedes any obstruction....key word being malicious, which your description seems to be describing/implying.
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  #745  
Old 05-17-19, 05:49 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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@AllStar (haven't seen him respond in a while)

Question about 1B covering the base with a runner on...I know they have to be in the field of play, but I can not find any other specific requirement about how they may line up.

Reason I ask is my son's 12U league, the 1B often have no clue what they are doing and they line up (as if waiting for a pick off throw from P) with one of their entire foot/leg blocking the path back. It is hard to describe, but basically the side of 1B bag that is looking at 2B, the fielder plants his foot right up against it, foot parallel to the side of the bag, blocking most/all of the bag.

When I field ump kids, I tell them they can not do that and make them adjust, but when I am a parent at my kids game, and ask the coach to bring it up, the ump has always said there is no rule against that.

Isn't that the same as any fielder blocking the bag without the ball? Wouldn't this be obstruction? How do you call that in the action of a game? If a pick off attempt is made, and the runner can't touch the bag, do you call obstruction and award them 2nd? Just call them safe at 1B even if they can't get back to the bag? Or am I just wrong and the fielder can do that?
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  #746  
Old 05-17-19, 05:54 AM
fortfan fortfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peak View Post
Situation: Runner on 1B attempts to steal 2B and gets caught in a pickle. 1B throws to 2B which chases then throws to 1B again who chases and throws to SS who chases and throws to P who has taken over 1B.

P catches the ball and takes a step towards the runner who doesn't turn around but charges right at the P. The runner takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground.

Field Umpire called the runner out. He made no attempt to slide or avoid the tag. This begins an argument over who had the right of way (was the P blocking 1B?) and unnecessary physical contact (should the runner had slid into 1B?).
That would be scored as a pick-off or caught stealing. 1-3-4-3-6-1 (Assuming the first throw was pitcher to first baseman.)

In high school, the runner would be thrown out and suspended 2 games.
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  #747  
Old 05-17-19, 07:19 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
@AllStar (haven't seen him respond in a while)

Question about 1B covering the base with a runner on...I know they have to be in the field of play, but I can not find any other specific requirement about how they may line up.

Reason I ask is my son's 12U league, the 1B often have no clue what they are doing and they line up (as if waiting for a pick off throw from P) with one of their entire foot/leg blocking the path back. It is hard to describe, but basically the side of 1B bag that is looking at 2B, the fielder plants his foot right up against it, foot parallel to the side of the bag, blocking most/all of the bag.

When I field ump kids, I tell them they can not do that and make them adjust, but when I am a parent at my kids game, and ask the coach to bring it up, the ump has always said there is no rule against that.

Isn't that the same as any fielder blocking the bag without the ball? Wouldn't this be obstruction? How do you call that in the action of a game? If a pick off attempt is made, and the runner can't touch the bag, do you call obstruction and award them 2nd? Just call them safe at 1B even if they can't get back to the bag? Or am I just wrong and the fielder can do that?
As for the 1B not having a clue at that level: Coaching. The coaches need to be all over that. Many times on these "select", "elite", "all stars" the kid playing first likely played a different position up to that point.

At the HS level, I have seen 1B do that same thing in blocking much of the base. I brought it up to one umpire once, whom supposedly knows the rules as he teaches the umpiring classes in the area. He asked me "is the WHOLE bag blocked? If not, then it is OK"

I don't accept that answer.


So, what I did, right or wrong, was to verbally express to the runner on first base (loud enough for the 1B to notice it) was not to slide HF back to the bag. Come in feet first and the first time someone lands on the first baseman's foot he will take it out of the way.

The 1B heard it and started to place his foot in front of the bag where you traditionally see them play.
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  #748  
Old 05-17-19, 07:34 AM
CoachHoversten CoachHoversten is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thavoice View Post
As for the 1B not having a clue at that level: Coaching. The coaches need to be all over that. Many times on these "select", "elite", "all stars" the kid playing first likely played a different position up to that point.

At the HS level, I have seen 1B do that same thing in blocking much of the base. I brought it up to one umpire once, whom supposedly knows the rules as he teaches the umpiring classes in the area. He asked me "is the WHOLE bag blocked? If not, then it is OK"

I don't accept that answer.


So, what I did, right or wrong, was to verbally express to the runner on first base (loud enough for the 1B to notice it) was not to slide HF back to the bag. Come in feet first and the first time someone lands on the first baseman's foot he will take it out of the way.

The 1B heard it and started to place his foot in front of the bag where you traditionally see them play.
While I can appreciate the sentiment, one, I try to avoid hurting players (slide comment), but my point was more as an umpire....if I am a dad or coach at the game and the ump won't do anything, then they won't do anything.

I want to know what to do when I am umpiring as we are not supposed to coach the kids, though as mentioned, I will do so for young kids who are learning the game. In tourney ball or HS and above, what rule does this violate? The catcher can not impede the path to the plate, they don't get a break because "part of the plate" is accessible....so I would not buy the explanation given at 1B either that you received
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  #749  
Old 05-17-19, 07:50 AM
thavoice thavoice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachHoversten View Post
While I can appreciate the sentiment, one, I try to avoid hurting players (slide comment), but my point was more as an umpire....if I am a dad or coach at the game and the ump won't do anything, then they won't do anything.

I want to know what to do when I am umpiring as we are not supposed to coach the kids, though as mentioned, I will do so for young kids who are learning the game. In tourney ball or HS and above, what rule does this violate? The catcher can not impede the path to the plate, they don't get a break because "part of the plate" is accessible....so I would not buy the explanation given at 1B either that you received
To expound just a little bit.

A player noticed it first and told me. In the dugout I told the players about how when they get on first and he was doing it, I was going to say loud enough (was coaching first base) so the 1B heard it but to continue to go back headfirst when you need to because that is the most effective way most times to get back and avoid tags).

My intent wasn't to injure, but to get into the head of that 1B a little bit. Kid had huge feet as only a couple of inches of the bag was not obstructed.

It worked as he moved. We played that team a few times that and the following summer and I don't know if he changed how he held guys on every game, or just against us.


Sorry Allsports for hijacking this, but it looks like a few of us would like to know the OFFICIAL RULING from an expert like yourself.


Can the 1B have his foot as Coach H and myself was describing?
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  #750  
Old 05-17-19, 11:38 AM
AllSports12 AllSports12 is offline
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Ok,

This type of play at this age level is the incubator for rule myths and here's why....

Many times the lower level leagues have "special" rules that supersede the rule code that the game is being played under. Those special rules then become "I saw that" rules as the kids get older and play under NFHS, NCAA, OBR rule sets..... Those "I saw that" situations do not apply under the 3 major rule codes.

Before we take the original situation (rundown between first and second) purely from the NFHS rule code... let's dispel a myth that has surfaced in the discussion.. (remember this is based on no special rule being applied and the game being played under NFHS Rules).....

- A runner never has to slide, however if he does, the slide must be legal. (in a Force Play / Double Play situation that decision not to slide may still result in Interference, but that's a different judgment on a different play)

So before we tackle the situation noted in the run-down, let's eliminate the slide requirement from our vocbulary....

Instead, let's apply actual rules to the situation at hand....

F1 is in possession of the baseball in R1's base path, He is blocking R1's direct access to first base. Because of this, R1 "takes 3 full running steps, brings his hands together at his chest and plows through the P. The P gets sent flying and lands behind 1B. The ball comes out of the glove as he's lying on the ground."

By rule, F1's position between R1 and 1st Base is 100% legal because he is in possession of the baseball. F1 has not violated Rule 2-22-3 Obstruction - "The fielder without possession of the ball denies access to the base the runner is attempting to achieve."

By rule R1's action running into F1 (3 steps, hands together at his chest, plows through F1, causing him to lose possession of the ball...directly violates Rule 8-4-2 "Any runner is out when he..".... under one or potentially all of the following categories....

c) does not legally attempt to avoid a fielder in the immediate act of making a play on him; or (just because contact occurs does not constitute a violation)
e) initiates malicious contact;
r) deliberately knocks the ball from a fielder's hand.

The runner in this situation at minimum is ruled out and the ball becomes dead. If malicious contact is ruled, then the runner is ejected from the contest as well.
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