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  #1  
Old 05-17-18, 09:43 AM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Our efforts to stem global warming must be working

Though if this were actually the case, wouldn't you think this report would get more press?
https://www.investors.com/politics/e...ng-media-bias/
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  #2  
Old 05-17-18, 10:21 AM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Climate change started as a good idea to help with pollution in cities but then rich people got involved. My small city passed a 2 million dollar a year carbon tax. The Democrats will put up some solar panels and pocket the rest.
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  #3  
Old 05-17-18, 11:34 AM
zeeman zeeman is offline
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Yeah, but TP said CO2 was bad! Said we should live in greenhouses and stuff
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Old 05-17-18, 12:04 PM
Raider6309 Raider6309 is offline
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Yeah, but TP said CO2 was bad! Said we should live in greenhouses and stuff
Well if TP said it, it has to be true
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  #5  
Old 05-17-18, 12:15 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Hey whatever gets you off.

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  #6  
Old 05-17-18, 12:45 PM
Neopolitan Neopolitan is online now
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You're clearly not keeping up. They moved the goal posts and changed it from "global warming" to "climate change" years ago once the whole out of control warming narrative blew up in their face.

Now instead of "the eastern seaboard will be under water in 20 years!!!!!" panic, they just get to blame any natural disaster or deviation from the norm on "climate change." Pretty brilliant PR strategy really. Got to hand it to them there.
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  #7  
Old 05-17-18, 12:51 PM
Crusaders Crusaders is online now
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Not this sh*t again.
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  #8  
Old 05-17-18, 01:03 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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The original article by Aaron Brown is actually a very even-handed piece, and a really good read.

https://www.realclearmarkets.com/art...ce_103243.html

He actually acknowledges that a 2-year downturn is pretty much statistical white noise in the grand scheme...focusing rather on the obvious reporting bias that's involved when talking about climate issues.

For instance, the fact that it's still as much of a "story" as everyone losing their sht every time there's a freaking hurricane.
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  #9  
Old 05-17-18, 02:29 PM
USA70PP USA70PP is offline
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I've often wondered when a temp is reported as x number of degrees above normal. What is normal? Is it a number of years average, say 10, or is it some other means of measurement? Say it is 10 years. That would mean the temps from 2008 would not be included in the 10 years. If the temps are higher this year, 2018, then next year 2009 temps would drop off and the "normal" would rise somewhat. Make sense or should I say the clock is wrong and I was really typing this at 3 AM?
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  #10  
Old 05-17-18, 03:44 PM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USA70PP View Post
I've often wondered when a temp is reported as x number of degrees above normal. What is normal? Is it a number of years average, say 10, or is it some other means of measurement? Say it is 10 years. That would mean the temps from 2008 would not be included in the 10 years. If the temps are higher this year, 2018, then next year 2009 temps would drop off and the "normal" would rise somewhat. Make sense or should I say the clock is wrong and I was really typing this at 3 AM?
For a planet that is 4.5 billion years old, we really don't know what is "average". We choose a snapshot of a time that we like and project from there. We do the same thing with CO2 levels, ocean levels, etc. Most of the islands on the planet have been above water for less than 1M years. So, what IS average?
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  #11  
Old 05-17-18, 04:45 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Air is cleaner, much cleaner than when I grew up. At least visually. I live at 600 ft above sea level.

I'll let Miami and my great-great-great..... grandkids worry about global warming. My position stays the same: you poke a chaotic system, you get what you get. Try not to poke it if you don't have to. Take poking it as little as possible, as a goal.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-18, 05:46 AM
foreword foreword is offline
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"My position stays the same: you poke a chaotic system, you get what you get. Try not to poke it if you don't have to. Take poking it as little as possible, as a goal."

That is way too much of a sensible opinion for this topic............
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  #13  
Old 05-18-18, 08:40 AM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by foreword View Post
"My position stays the same: you poke a chaotic system, you get what you get. Try not to poke it if you don't have to. Take poking it as little as possible, as a goal."

That is way too much of a sensible opinion for this topic............
But is climate truly a chaotic system?

For sure LOCAL weather is chaotic and when looked at on a micro scale (local/regional) climate appears to be chaotic. But on a global level over geological time frames is it chaotic or is it governed by very powerful inputs like solar activity, continental drift and ocean current patterns that move it in somewhat predictable pathways?

The fact that we don't understand the short term and long term patterns that control climate very much does not mean it's a chaotic system. My biggest criticism of the climate change alarmist position is that they overly rely on models that have not been shown to be proactively or even retroactively predictive.

For sure this topic should be the subject of scientific debate and ongoing research. But the alarmists have attempted to shut off debate and claim the science is settled. If this debate was confined to the pages of scientific journals and argued about at scientific meetings it would be no big deal. But the alarmists are demanding that we make enormous changes in our lifestyles and economic foundation to try to minimize a problem that may not even exist.

While the precautionary principle is fine before I spent one dollar on mitigating climate change I would first fund efforts to:

* Harden the electrical grid against solar storms and an EMP attack

* Develop a comprehensive space based tracking and defense infrastructure to identify and destroy/move any asteroids heading towards earth

* Work to improve the environment by focusing on clean water and preventing deforestation.

By the time we finish these efforts we may actually know whether our use of fossil fuels is contributing to dangerous climate change.
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  #14  
Old 05-18-18, 09:26 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWMCinci View Post
For a planet that is 4.5 billion years old, we really don't know what is "average". We choose a snapshot of a time that we like and project from there. We do the same thing with CO2 levels, ocean levels, etc. Most of the islands on the planet have been above water for less than 1M years. So, what IS average?
You seem to prefer your own personal experience, as you often state (I feel like I know your entire life story). Maybe this will be easier to understand:

Growing up the drive into Cleveland or any industrial city was like entering into hell. Hideous and depressing. Cities across the USA had air warnings - "please stay indoors, and try not to breath". Lol. The Cuyahoga was dead. Actually caught on fire which remains a national joke to this day. Lake Erie was a dangerous sewer. My dad LOVED to fish. He'd take my brothers and I up to northern Canada every summer which was my favorite vacation and father/son memories as a child.

Now I take MY kids canoeing and fishing throughout NE OH and Lake Erie - Cuyahoga, Grand, Erie walleye and smallmouth. Also summer days at the beach - Mentor Headlands, Fairport Harbor, Geneva on the Lake. You can actually go in the water. My father, and I, were deprived of ALL of that.

So I don't really care what happened 4.5 billion years ago. When volcanoes covered the earth. Or when God created trees and rivers. (You pick). It's meaningless drivel.

Last edited by TigerPaw; 05-18-18 at 09:39 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-18-18, 09:47 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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This may help explain sea level rise: Rocks falling into the ocean. Seriously an actual republican congressman actually suggested this, on the House floor, 2 days ago. How do these people get elected??? Nevermind, exhibit a. see Yappi debate forum.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ise/621389002/

I know I know. Whatabout Hillary...Obama.
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  #16  
Old 05-18-18, 09:54 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
This may help explain sea level rise: Rocks falling into the ocean. Seriously an actual republican congressman actually suggested this, on the House floor, 2 days ago. How do these people get elected??? Nevermind, exhibit a. see Yappi debate forum.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ise/621389002/

I know I know. Whatabout Hillary...Obama.
It's not a Republican issue. An actual Democrat congressman was worried Guam was going to tip over and said it on C-SPAN during a Congressional hearing.

Seems like it's certain districts choosing to elect stupid people for political reasons.
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  #17  
Old 05-18-18, 09:56 AM
SWMCinci SWMCinci is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
..
So I don't really care what happened 4.5 billion years ago. When volcanoes covered the earth. Or when God created trees and rivers. Or whateverthefck you are talking about.
My belief is that we should work hard to make the Earth as livable as possible. You are correct, pollution is bad and we should work to minimize it. In the US we've made great strides in that area, we produce less pollution today than we did 40 years ago despite having almost 30% more people. In less than 50 years we cleaned up a great deal of the waste that was really setting us up for a very bleak future. We spent trillions of dollars doing so.

But eventually you reach a point where the costs exceed the benefit. One example is automobile emissions. We've reduced automobile emissions by better than 99% since 1970 (EPA) - and there had been improvements in emissions during the 1960s as well. The cost to reduce emissions beyond where we are today is geometrically increased, so much so that we do more good pulling 100 pre 1970 cars off the road than if we improved emissions by 10% today and at a cost of thousands vs billions.

You want to clean it up more? With today's technology? Build nuclear power plants. Make our only use of petrochemical energy to be mobile use (planes, trains, and automobiles). If it's really a problem that we are concerned with, allow businesses and homeowners to deduct 100% of the cost of rooftop solar panels from their taxes over a period of 5 years, but to do THAT you've got to cut the cost of government. Government doesn't have to invest or pay for anything, it just has to subsidize it through taxes (much cheaper than taxing people more to accomplish something).

Where this goes off the rails is when the conversation goes from "stop throwing crap in the water" to trying to force change when the costs and side effects don't add up. Why are we saying that the temperature shouldn't rise? It's been much higher and much lower over our global history. It's NEVER been stable in 4.5 BILLION years. Why are we saying what the CO2 levels should be, that's NEVER been stable in 4.5 BILLION years. Why are we seeking to stabilize the levels of the seas, that's NEVER happened in 4.5 BILLION years? The icecaps? They have come and gone several times over the millennia. With a planet that is 4.5 billion years old, stability is measured in 100 or 1000 year snapshots. That's like picking the ideal temperature where you live at 7:05 in the morning and then trying to do everything you can to negate the effects of sunlight and darkness to alter that temperature. There's a difference in trying to do no harm, or more specifically in doing as little harm as possible, and trying to stabilize chaos.
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  #18  
Old 05-18-18, 10:16 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Good points. Time to revive the coal industry, more strip mines, dump slag into rivers, add pipelines and fracking wells across aquifers, open drilling to shorelines and wildlife refuges, and reduce mileage and emissions standards back to when American was great! Yee haw.
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  #19  
Old 05-18-18, 10:23 AM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Good points. Time to revive the coal industry, more strip mines, dump slag into rivers, add pipelines and fracking wells across aquifers, open drilling to shorelines and wildlife refuges, and reduce mileage and emissions standards back to when American was great! Yee haw.
What solution do you propose? Should we just continue to import oil from other sources?

The demand for energy is not about to decrease, and will likely always be increasing. What power source is ready to over take fossil fuels as the majority supplier for energy? All forms of energy production have environmental concerns and nobody is arguing that coal and fossil fuel should be the energy of the future.
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Old 05-18-18, 11:00 AM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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What are some alternatives to fossil fuels, or reducing their usage? Did you just ask that??? Talk about living under a rock.

Whale oil. Comes from whales not fossils. If I think of any others I will post them.
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  #21  
Old 05-18-18, 12:59 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
This may help explain sea level rise: Rocks falling into the ocean. Seriously an actual republican congressman actually suggested this, on the House floor, 2 days ago. How do these people get elected??? Nevermind, exhibit a. see Yappi debate forum.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ise/621389002/

I know I know. Whatabout Hillary...Obama.
Which illustrates why we don't want nor need our elected officials involved in anything related to climate change.
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  #22  
Old 05-18-18, 01:02 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Good points. Time to revive the coal industry, more strip mines, dump slag into rivers, add pipelines and fracking wells across aquifers, open drilling to shorelines and wildlife refuges, and reduce mileage and emissions standards back to when American was great! Yee haw.
Hmmm, I'm pretty sure he said nuclear. Not what you said.
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  #23  
Old 05-18-18, 01:08 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Which illustrates why we don't want nor need our elected officials involved in anything related to climate change.
Uhh yeah we've only been screaming that for years. But one side does not trust scientists so...here we are. The whole world is out to get you, lol.
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Old 05-18-18, 01:17 PM
TigerPaw TigerPaw is offline
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Hmmm, I'm pretty sure he said nuclear. Not what you said.
Understood. That is what HE would do. Not what the people he elects would do, or are doing as we speak, that I'm concerned with. Why the disconnect?
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  #25  
Old 05-18-18, 01:18 PM
fish82 fish82 is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
So I don't really care what happened 4.5 billion years ago. When volcanoes covered the earth.
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
But one side does not trust scientists so...here we are.
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  #26  
Old 05-18-18, 02:01 PM
Gh0st Gh0st is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
What are some alternatives to fossil fuels, or reducing their usage? Did you just ask that??? Talk about living under a rock.

Whale oil. Comes from whales not fossils. If I think of any others I will post them.
I asked you for your energy plan. My suspicion is that you don't have one. Good dodge though. I am fully aware what alternatives there are. My point was that they all of draw backs including not meeting the energy demands of the nation in a cost effective way.
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  #27  
Old 05-18-18, 03:31 PM
Hammerdrill Hammerdrill is offline
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Originally Posted by TigerPaw View Post
Uhh yeah we've only been screaming that for years. But one side does not trust scientists so...here we are. The whole world is out to get you, lol.
Oh please. You are really giving your broad brush a work out today.
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Old 05-18-18, 05:51 PM
irish_buffalo irish_buffalo is offline
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Climate change is very real. We all can agree. Fact is, certain time gaps will show drops, however as a whole the temperature has risen. I understand this is NASA's fat cats just looking for more funding but the graph shown does illustrate dips. The rise is not constant even though it is rising.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs...l-temperature/

Energy? Natural gas is FAR cleaner than coal. More efficient as well. No matter what anyone says Solar and Wind are the future. This may have been sparked by government policy but it is now driven by economics.

As EIB stated the air was far dirtier when I was a kid. Leaded gasoline and diesel where everywhere and in my neighborhood you could smell coke (refining and steel by-product). If you have ever known that smell it is distinct and what E. Toledo's Birmingham neighborhood smelled like. The problem today is there are places in China, India, and Mexico that have far dirtier air than when I was a kid. Natural gas will catch on there as well soon enough. It is cheap and clean and easier to get.
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  #29  
Old 05-18-18, 08:38 PM
lotr10 lotr10 is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
Climate change is very real. We all can agree. Fact is, certain time gaps will show drops, however as a whole the temperature has risen. I understand this is NASA's fat cats just looking for more funding but the graph shown does illustrate dips. The rise is not constant even though it is rising.

https://climate.nasa.gov/vital-signs...l-temperature/

Energy? Natural gas is FAR cleaner than coal. More efficient as well. No matter what anyone says Solar and Wind are the future. This may have been sparked by government policy but it is now driven by economics.

As EIB stated the air was far dirtier when I was a kid. Leaded gasoline and diesel where everywhere and in my neighborhood you could smell coke (refining and steel by-product). If you have ever known that smell it is distinct and what E. Toledo's Birmingham neighborhood smelled like. The problem today is there are places in China, India, and Mexico that have far dirtier air than when I was a kid. Natural gas will catch on there as well soon enough. It is cheap and clean and easier to get.
Two things to keep in mind about that graph IB:

1) Look at the time scale involved. It's less then 150 years. In terms of climate change I would suggest that this is far to short of a time to indicate whether what we're seeing is beyond the normal temperature rise we have been experiencing since the end of the last ice age 10,000 years ago. My guess is that in the 150 years prior to the onset of the medieval warm period you would have seen a similar or even more robust increase in temperatures.

2) It can be confusing and I couldn't tell from the article but a lot of this data may have been adjusted. That is they used computer models to alter MEASURED data. My understanding is that these adjustments show the rate and extent of warming to be greater then the raw measurement data does.

I agree though that natural gas offers a fantastic alternative to burning coal for heat & energy. It is a cleaner energy source and the fact that the USA has HUGE deposits of NG is even better.
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Old 05-18-18, 08:50 PM
eastisbest eastisbest is offline
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Originally Posted by irish_buffalo View Post
As EIB stated the air was far dirtier when I was a kid. Leaded gasoline and diesel where everywhere and in my neighborhood you could smell coke (refining and steel by-product). If you have ever known that smell it is distinct and what E. Toledo's Birmingham neighborhood smelled like. .
When they did the high school remodel, I saw the workers walk out the building black with soot. I asked what? They said they were replacing the windows. All that crap over the years has filled the houses and buildings. Some no doubt from the old boilers and some from the industry.
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