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  #91  
Old 02-08-18, 11:03 AM
NewJacketCity NewJacketCity is offline
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Originally Posted by member1 View Post
Nobody gave a hell when Trotwood was getting beat by 70 in football. Same can be said for Wayne or Centerville when it comes to the drawing kids, though nobody complains. Hell, Centerville had a whole backfield of kids from DPS a few years ago and nobody said a word. Those teams would not even think about leaving them out of some conference jumble mess! Why because they have the resources! The financial resources and the fact they got some of that old money.

What back Channel?? Trotwood's best players, all of them are four year kids! Hargrove, Daniels, Stevens-Peppers, the big OT, Parker.. All of those kids went to Twood MS. What are you saying?? That recruiting bit is old news! Like 10 years old. Find another excuse. It is ridiculous to still be bringing that up. One kid here or there does not supersede the fact that most of those kids are 4 year Trotwood kids! They put work in, over the summer, during the winter, after school, etc... Give those kids and those coaches some credit. Stop trying to tie their success to "back channel" recruiting lines. That is just terrible! That's why some of these Twood fans spaz! These kids have put in so much work and the level of respect they get for that is minimal. I wish some one could of recorded Hargrove's speech yesterday at the signing. What he said did not have a damn thing to do with some back channel recruiting! It was about putting work in, getting better and getting all those kids to buy into being a team and accomplishing one goal, being state champs! That's the difference and not giving those kids credit for that and putting of some of their success to "back channel" recruiting. That's a little racist in itself...Just sayin! Poor black kids can't work hard????
Don't put words in my mouth. I would say the exact same things about Wayne and Centerville, but the reality is the GWOC North teams rarely ever play those teams so it's not really my problem. I get the Trotwood kids work really hard and should be applauded for that, but are you saying that the successes that TW has had in the GWOC North and against American teams are merely as a result of outworking the other schools players? That's ridiculous. Talent matters and the other schools don't have the pool the talent that TW does. Where exactly in my post did I "not give credit" to TW???
  #92  
Old 02-08-18, 11:13 AM
member1 member1 is offline
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Originally Posted by NewJacketCity View Post
Don't put words in my mouth. I would say the exact same things about Wayne and Centerville, but the reality is the GWOC North teams rarely ever play those teams so it's not really my problem. I get the Trotwood kids work really hard and should be applauded for that, but are you saying that the successes that TW has had in the GWOC North and against American teams are merely as a result of outworking the other schools players? That's ridiculous. Talent matters and the other schools don't have the pool the talent pool that TW does.
Hey buddy, I been around this area a long time. Talent has never been an issue at Trotwood. Remember the team that Troy and Ryan Brewer beat 77-7? It had 2 NFL players on it (Will Allen and Brandon McKinney) and about 6 Div 1 scholarship athletes. They got beat 63 points! Was Troy that much more talented? Nope, but they probably worked a whole hell of a lot harder. Talent has never been Twood's issue. It was the mentality, losing was OK. Well not anymore and folks hate that! Especially the schools that are making moves around them..
  #93  
Old 02-08-18, 11:13 AM
freedom_isnt_free freedom_isnt_free is offline
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I see what youíre saying but my stance is that itís hard to consistently compete with a team that doesnít play by the same rules/standards. Recruiting was a known issue under Douglass and while not as rampant and flagarant it still happens to some degree through one channel or another. Also there are always ďmove ins and transfersĒ specifically for football or basketball. Butler does not have the luxury of kids moving in to play sports. Like everyone else they rely on 99.9% homegrown talent. Those have always been big turnoffs for me. When I look at Trotwood I want no part not because of race but because of the perceived inequity in athletes. Itís the same reason I wouldnít want CJ or Badin or Lehman in our division. Not race. Again this is a byproduct of building the way they did. They used a steroid method which got them overnight eye popping results but at a cost.

Trotwood is still a GWOC team and for the major sports that makes sense as they can compete with EVERY team in the GWOC for the reasons mentioned above.
  #94  
Old 02-08-18, 11:30 AM
member1 member1 is offline
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I am fighting this battle alone right now because everybody else is probably working...LOL!

OK, Tell me in the last 4 years what significant move-in has made a difference in the Trotwood's program so outstanding that it can be a beacon of it's success?

Here let me eliminate a few of them for you.

Hargove- (Twood MS)
Daniels- (Twood MS)
Coates-(Twood MS)

Peppers-Stephens-(Twood MS)
Parker-(Twood MS)
Big OL (Smith?) Twood MS
4 of 5 OL TM MS, one kid came back to the district as a sophomore but he went to Twood MS
Nelloms (the INT Twood MS)
Stephens the big TE(Twood MS)
Anderson CB (Twood MS)
2 other DL (Twood MS)

I could go on, Tell me who was the significant transfer??? What are you saying? Back it up with some factual information please? Or are you going to come back and say it has to be kids that start in Kindergarten??
  #95  
Old 02-08-18, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by freedom_isnt_free View Post
I see what youíre saying but my stance is that itís hard to consistently compete with a team that doesnít play by the same rules/standards. Recruiting was a known issue under Douglass and while not as rampant and flagarant it still happens to some degree through one channel or another. Also there are always ďmove ins and transfersĒ specifically for football or basketball. Butler does not have the luxury of kids moving in to play sports. Like everyone else they rely on 99.9% homegrown talent. Those have always been big turnoffs for me. When I look at Trotwood I want no part not because of race but because of the perceived inequity in athletes. Itís the same reason I wouldnít want CJ or Badin or Lehman in our division. Not race. Again this is a byproduct of building the way they did. They used a steroid method which got them overnight eye popping results but at a cost.

Trotwood is still a GWOC team and for the major sports that makes sense as they can compete with EVERY team in the GWOC for the reasons mentioned above.
Let's talk basketball too.

Starting 5-

Davis-Trotwood Family been here for years (Twood MS)
Stephens-Been here for years (Twood MS)
Blanton-Dad was a Trotwood star in the 90's, Twood-MS
Beylue -Dad was a Trotwood Star in the 80's he moved back to Trotwood from Atlanta his sophomore year so dad can take care of his elderly parents, Is this considered a move-in? If so, how sad?? His dad is a Trotwod grad and he moved from Atlanta, not DPS!
Shaw-Been here since freshmen year, may have went to Twood MS, don't know- solid PG.

Anderson-kid off the bench! Twood MS
Matthews-Freshmen year

What are you saying??
  #96  
Old 02-08-18, 11:40 AM
HSFB HSFB is offline
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[QUOTE=member1;6982367]Nobody gave a hell when Trotwood was getting beat by 70 in football.

What back Channel?? Trotwood's best players, all of them are four year kids! Hargrove, Daniels, Stevens-Peppers, the big OT, Parker.. All of those kids went to Twood MS. What are you saying?? That recruiting bit is old news! Like 10 years old. Find another excuse.

Member1, i respect your opinion,but, you say the recuiting is 10 years old and it is old news. Then in the same post you bring up when Trotwood was getting beat by 70. How long ago was that?
  #97  
Old 02-08-18, 11:52 AM
dreamz7 dreamz7 is offline
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Originally Posted by member1 View Post
I am fighting this battle alone right now because everybody else is probably working...LOL!

OK, Tell me in the last 4 years what significant move-in has made a difference in the Trotwood's program so outstanding that it can be a beacon of it's success?

Here let me eliminate a few of them for you.

Hargove- (Twood MS)
Daniels- (Twood MS)
Coates-(Twood MS)

Peppers-Stephens-(Twood MS)
Parker-(Twood MS)
Big OL (Smith?) Twood MS
4 of 5 OL TM MS, one kid came back to the district as a sophomore but he went to Twood MS
Nelloms (the INT Twood MS)
Stephens the big TE(Twood MS)
Anderson CB (Twood MS)
2 other DL (Twood MS)

I could go on, Tell me who was the significant transfer??? What are you saying? Back it up with some factual information please? Or are you going to come back and say it has to be kids that start in Kindergarten??

Agreed Trotwood feeder youth programs have tons of talent, fast,Athletic hard working, smart kids. I'm from Springfield growing up we used to battle with Northwest Track club .
  #98  
Old 02-08-18, 11:55 AM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by playboi12 View Post
Are you seriously asking that question? The only school left out of this equation was a predominately black school. That didn't raise a red-flag to you?
Not at all. Unlike you I don't look for race issues in everything that happens in the world.
  #99  
Old 02-08-18, 12:14 PM
piratedad piratedad is offline
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WC is horrible in sports right now and the gates are awful, plus we just dropped to D3. I see what they are trying to do, because SWBL will not accept them. They were not voted in before! How about seeing if Bellbrook and Franklin would be interested in joining the new league for a South and North 12 team league?
  #100  
Old 02-08-18, 12:17 PM
member1 member1 is offline
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[QUOTE=HSFB;6982413]
Quote:
Originally Posted by member1 View Post
Nobody gave a hell when Trotwood was getting beat by 70 in football.

What back Channel?? Trotwood's best players, all of them are four year kids! Hargrove, Daniels, Stevens-Peppers, the big OT, Parker.. All of those kids went to Twood MS. What are you saying?? That recruiting bit is old news! Like 10 years old. Find another excuse.

Member1, I respect your opinion,but, you say the recruiting is 10 years old and it is old news. Then in the same post you bring up when Trotwood was getting beat by 70. How long ago was that?
No one cared when they were getting beat by 70 points. Why do they care now when Trotwood is beating folks by 50? Now the shoe is on the other foot the powers that be are trying to get them out. I am asking the same question you are. It was not important than, why is it now that Trotwood is doing it?

The recruiting portion is old news because that coach has been gone for what 4 or 5 years now, and that issue is still brought up like it is relative to what these kids are doing today.
  #101  
Old 02-08-18, 12:22 PM
freedom_isnt_free freedom_isnt_free is offline
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Iím not able to specifically name the kids, because youíre right I donít know. But that is the perception. Itís not just a Trotwood thing, I see Wayne and Springfield in the same light. Is that the ONLY reason those teams are good definitely not saying that. Good athletes want to go and play for good successful program, I get it. But in this case the strong get stronger. Please donít think for a minute that I donít get why Trotwood would feel like an outcast in all of this. I can certainly understand that and that does suck. My point is that I really donít think the decision was made because of race. Probably many factors that have been mentioned here, with competitive balance being a big one. I still liken this to the Northmont ouster from the GWOC North. It was driven by competitive balance. They were monopolizing the division in pretty much everything outside of baseball.
  #102  
Old 02-08-18, 12:24 PM
HSFB HSFB is offline
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As mentioned before, if this vote passes, Trotwood will still be a member of the GWOC.
Where they will play is a different story. They at least have a Conference to be in.
  #103  
Old 02-08-18, 12:31 PM
New Breed New Breed is offline
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It seems like (and forgive me if this point has already been made) that Trotwood would be in the conference with the bigger schools (Wayne, Centerville, Springfield, Fairmont, and a few others). I wouldn't be mad at that at all. Worst case scenario would be Trotwood going independent. That would be a nightmare.
  #104  
Old 02-08-18, 12:37 PM
freedom_isnt_free freedom_isnt_free is offline
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Originally Posted by New Breed View Post
It seems like (and forgive me if this point has already been made) that Trotwood would be in the conference with the bigger schools (Wayne, Centerville, Springfield, Fairmont, and a few others). I wouldn't be mad at that at all. Worst case scenario would be Trotwood going independent. That would be a nightmare.
Harbins would be off the chart for Trotwood. On paper seeing a DIII with DI teams would be a head scratcher but Trotwood has shown they can hang with and consistently beat the DI heavy hitters. They will be just fine staying in the GWOC.
  #105  
Old 02-08-18, 12:38 PM
NewJacketCity NewJacketCity is offline
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Originally Posted by New Breed View Post
It seems like (and forgive me if this point has already been made) that Trotwood would be in the conference with the bigger schools (Wayne, Centerville, Springfield, Fairmont, and a few others). I wouldn't be mad at that at all. Worst case scenario would be Trotwood going independent. That would be a nightmare.
If TW wants to be the best of the best in the state wouldn't they want that rather than beating up on schools that can't compete year in and year out at their level? As long as TW isn't left in the cold, and it sounds as though they won't, why wouldn't they want to compete with schools that are more on their level like Springfield, Wayne, & Centerville?
  #106  
Old 02-08-18, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by New Breed View Post
It seems like (and forgive me if this point has already been made) that Trotwood would be in the conference with the bigger schools (Wayne, Centerville, Springfield, Fairmont, and a few others). I wouldn't be mad at that at all. Worst case scenario would be Trotwood going independent. That would be a nightmare.
But here is the thing. The assumption is being made that the other 9 schools won't mind having them in. No clarity has been expressed about this at all. A D3 school lumped with D1 and D2 schools. The only benefit is to Trotwood when it comes to computer points. 1 group already had a back room meeting around the meeting, how do we know another group is not doing the same thing?
  #107  
Old 02-08-18, 12:49 PM
Irish60 Irish60 is offline
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Originally Posted by winbypin View Post
Not at all. Unlike you I don't look for race issues in everything that happens in the world.
I have no dog in this fight, but I am reminded of the Arthur Conan Doyle quote: "Once you eliminate the impossible, then whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth". I would hate to think that a decision like this would be race-based. But, in looking through the thread, I am not seeing a lot of justification for the move. So, if the proffered justifications are eliminated, then the specter of race remains. I don't know enough about the situation to know if the other justifications hold any water. But if they don't, then it's a legitimate question to ask.
  #108  
Old 02-08-18, 12:51 PM
VBHSFB04 VBHSFB04 is offline
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Originally Posted by NewJacketCity View Post
If TW wants to be the best of the best in the state wouldn't they want that rather than beating up on schools that can't compete year in and year out at their level? As long as TW isn't left in the cold, and it sounds as though they won't, why wouldn't they want to compete with schools that are more on their level like Springfield, Wayne, & Centerville?
Tell that to every other sports team at Trotwood that has to compete with those schools other than football and boys basketball.
  #109  
Old 02-08-18, 12:57 PM
NewJacketCity NewJacketCity is offline
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Originally Posted by VBHSFB04 View Post
Tell that to every other sports team at Trotwood that has to compete with those schools other than football and boys basketball.
Football and basketball are the king revenue sports and the ones that drive decisions.
  #110  
Old 02-08-18, 01:12 PM
VBHSFB04 VBHSFB04 is offline
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Originally Posted by NewJacketCity View Post
Football and basketball are the king revenue sports and the ones that drive decisions.
No kidding?
  #111  
Old 02-08-18, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by piratedad View Post
WC is horrible in sports right now and the gates are awful, plus we just dropped to D3. I see what they are trying to do, because SWBL will not accept them. They were not voted in before! How about seeing if Bellbrook and Franklin would be interested in joining the new league for a South and North 12 team league?
The SWBL is the most stable league for the Dayton area(not that hard considering there has only been two leagues for 10 years now). They most likely aren't looking to make changes nor their teams looking for a change.
WC was initially voted into the SWBL by the the AD's before they went in to the GWOC. It was however voted down by the principals. Word was that the small schools didn't want the smallest of the bigger division to move over to the smaller division. I agree that Bellbrook and Franklin would be a good fit with WC, Stebbins, and Fairborn but I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
  #112  
Old 02-08-18, 01:34 PM
nwwarrior09 nwwarrior09 is offline
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I used to coach junior high basketball in the GWOC, and by and large I agree with what the Trotwood guys are saying about their basketball team. The main guys are mostly, if not entirely, guys that have been in their system from junior high or earlier. I can't attest to football from my personal knowledge, but I bet it's also by and large Trotwood kids.

The "they recruit" tale seems to be mostly based on what's happened in the past, and from those who believe they can't possibly be this good with only Trotwood kids. Rest assured that they can. The school is smaller, but pound for pound they have the best basketball and football athletic talent in their district of anyone in the GWOC. I'm still searching for a logical answer as to why they were left out of the new league in favor of the likes of W.C. and Stebbins, but on the surface this looks like an act of competitive cowardice by some of the schools that they have a lot of history with, ala the SCOL forming a new league to get away from Wilmington (basketball) and Massie (football). Instead of building their programs back up or assuming that inevitably Trotwood will hit a down cycle, they're taking their ball and going home.

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  #113  
Old 02-08-18, 01:36 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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Originally Posted by y2h View Post
Recruiting.
Prove it!
  #114  
Old 02-08-18, 01:50 PM
VBHSFB04 VBHSFB04 is offline
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FWIW. Trotwood's two closest games this past year were both won by 7 pts. Beat Wayne 14-7 and GWOC North member Piqua 42-35. Troy has put a couple of losses on Trotwood recently. Why are the teams in the North ducking them? This makes us look like a bunch of wussies.
  #115  
Old 02-08-18, 01:58 PM
Zezzo! Zezzo! is offline
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1. This is where I stand. Rightly or wrongly teams want to feel like they have a chance to compete for titles, especially when we're talking revenue sports of football & basketball. The fact is for the better part of 10 years no one in the American Conference has been very much, if at all, competitive with TW in Football or Basketball.

2. Also in play (imo), & part of the reason for #1 is that TW has a bigger feeder area then their own school district. Kids from DPS and Trotwood grow up playing against each other, and kids from DPS will leave to go to Trotwood to play sports and get out of DPS. This is a talent pool that the other American teams simply don't have and can't compete with. It's a fact that TW has been punished in the past for recruiting, yes it's been a while and yes it was a different coach, but it still happened and I believe that they still use back-channels to do the same today. Athletes aren't transfering in to the likes of Sidney, Piqua,Troy, Fairborn, West Carolton and the like merely to play sports and build dominant sports teams.

I applaud Trotwood on their successes. They've built very dominant football and basketball programs and one that other schools don't feel like they can compete with anymore, and that's what's at the core of this move, not race.
This is your opinion but is filled with fallacies. Do you know for a fact that kids are flooding into Trotwood from DPS? If so, do you have proof? And what back channels if any are they using that no other school isn't using? Secondly, the talent pool in Trotwood has been there for decades. Mike Carter and Jim Staley won the GMVC in basketball 10 years in a row. Trotwood always had D1 talent in football even in their down years.

No one wants to give the coaching any credit in football, it's absolutely better now than it use to be in fact. The administration is better now than it used to be. Fact is the other schools have not done the things to cultivate their athletic programs.
  #116  
Old 02-08-18, 02:13 PM
VBHSFB04 VBHSFB04 is offline
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Originally Posted by Zezzo! View Post
Prove it!
Mo's 5 game suspension should do it. He converses with other teams players at 7 on7's and basketball games. It's blatant and everybody knows it. I believe those days are in the past and time to move on.
  #117  
Old 02-08-18, 02:23 PM
winbypin winbypin is offline
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Originally Posted by Irish60 View Post
I have no dog in this fight, but I am reminded of the Arthur Conan Doyle quote: "Once you eliminate the impossible, then whatever is left, no matter how improbable, must be the truth". I would hate to think that a decision like this would be race-based. But, in looking through the thread, I am not seeing a lot of justification for the move. So, if the proffered justifications are eliminated, then the specter of race remains. I don't know enough about the situation to know if the other justifications hold any water. But if they don't, then it's a legitimate question to ask.
That's a nice quote but I have seen valid reasons in this thread. Instead people want to jump to race and ignore the reasons.

Trotwood is a better fit with the schools that would remain in the gwoc for the sports that matter to trotwood. They are not a good fit with the schools that are leaving. They are already in the south with those schools and are killing everyone. I remember trotwood people complaining about being put in with those teams when the gwoc realigned a few years ago. Now they want to be with them?

Trotwoods will be just fine with the schools left in the gwoc.
  #118  
Old 02-08-18, 02:24 PM
NewJacketCity NewJacketCity is offline
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Originally Posted by VBHSFB04 View Post
FWIW. Trotwood's two closest games this past year were both won by 7 pts. Beat Wayne 14-7 and GWOC North member Piqua 42-35. Troy has put a couple of losses on Trotwood recently. Why are the teams in the North ducking them? This makes us look like a bunch of wussies.
Trotwood's football record average win in the last 10 years against the teams in the American conference
Year Record Avg Margin of Victory
2008 4-0 3
2009 4-0 19
2010 5-0 27
2011 5-0 29
2012 6-0 37
2013 6-0 43
2014 5-0 35
2015 4-2 25
2016 7-1 40
2017 8-0 49

Total 54-3

I'd say this is a fair argument for competitive balance being a reason of the schools excluding TW at least from a football perspective.

PS: My question is this: if Trotwood wants to compete yearly, at a state level, why would they want to to play a schedule that leads to these kind of results? They will not be pushed year in and out if they were to be included in this league. I understand those with TW feeling disrespected. I will say I think with the history that was there between TW and the teams of the new conference, that I think they were owed being let into the discussion on what was going on (if they weren't). That being said I understand why they did what they did.

Last edited by NewJacketCity; 02-08-18 at 02:49 PM. Reason: Couldn't read my hand writing
  #119  
Old 02-08-18, 02:34 PM
yakyak yakyak is offline
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Originally Posted by VBHSFB04 View Post
FWIW. Trotwood's two closest games this past year were both won by 7 pts. Beat Wayne 14-7 and GWOC North member Piqua 42-35. Troy has put a couple of losses on Trotwood recently. Why are the teams in the North ducking them? This makes us look like a bunch of wussies.
Agree, it is a shame. I loved that we had a team in the Rams that could compete at the State level. Why blame the Rams for some of that awful coaching in the North right now? Is Troy (New Troy) or Piqua every scared of the Rams? Look what a new coach at VB did in hoops, at least kept it reasonable. Obviously my beef goes back to the orignal punt out of the North, which to me was the bigger crime.

Twood is proud Miami Valley program that is being treated like garbage right now. Its a real shame, only hoping this turns out better for you guys.

I honestly hope Twood says good riddance, we need better competition in the key sports their kids care about.
  #120  
Old 02-08-18, 02:36 PM
just me being me just me being me is offline
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Originally Posted by nwwarrior09 View Post
I used to coach junior high basketball in the GWOC, and by and large I agree with what the Trotwood guys are saying about their basketball team. The main guys are mostly, if not entirely, guys that have been in their system from junior high or earlier. I can't attest to football from my personal knowledge, but I bet it's also by and large Trotwood kids.

The "they recruit" tale seems to be mostly based on what's happened in the past, and from those who believe they can't possibly be this good with only Trotwood kids. Rest assured that they can. The school is smaller, but pound for pound they have the best basketball and football athletic talent in their district of anyone in the GWOC. I'm still searching for a logical answer as to why they were left out of the new league in favor of the likes of W.C. and Stebbins, but on the surface this looks like an act of competitive cowardice by some of the schools that they have a lot of history with, ala the SCOL forming a new league to get away from Wilmington (basketball) and Massie (football). Instead of building their programs back up or assuming that inevitably Trotwood will hit a down cycle, they're taking their ball and going home.

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Thank You for being open and honest and partial. You might not get much love from a lot of the people here but you have a true understanding what Trotwood people are feeling. There is nothing here to show me why the other teams would not invite Trotwood to the new conference other than race but I appreciate the few who respect the Trotwood Rams.
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